Xenoblade Revision Part 1: Tier Revisions and Minor Hax Adjustments

[Ultima_Reality]

That doesn’t mean beyond can’t also be used synonymously with above as well depending on context. If you want to bring up how the word is used, there’s probably just as many sentences where beyond could be used interchangeably with above.

Sure, but the Burden of Proof is on you, in this case: You need evidence that "beyond" is being used to indicate transcendence here in the first place; infinitely transcending a multiverse does imply that you are outside of it, yes, but the reverse isn't necessarily the case, hence the standard assumption is the latter, not the former.

He means that every universe exists on the same level, meaning that it’s unlikely for something like the Passage of Fate, stated to be beyond space and time, to exist on that same level because these universes already inhabit the 4th dimension. The Passage of Fate would have to possess different space-time continuum in order for it to still be 4-D.

See above. Existing outside of a 4-dimensional spacetime doesn't necessarily make you infinitely superior to it, and given what the OP says, the "beyond space and time" statement seems to refer to a pocket dimension created from the Passage of Fate's power, not the Passage of Fate itself, which just furthers my point.

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

A pocket dimension usually exists within a universe, no? Memory Space being beyond space and time doesn’t really match with that unless I’m wrong about something here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, Beyond means "Farther away" And one of it's synonyms is "Over" or "Above". I don't really see "Outside of" as a synonym when I look up Beyond. That's what I get when I google "Define Beyond".

Anyway, there is a back up statement. This is the Passage of Fate, and your visions. People live and die at the mercy of Zanza. What that means is that Memory Space/Passage of Fate exists embody the fact that Zanza has omnipresent wide Fate Manipulation over the universe. I know that's not really an AP feat, but the fact that it exists beyond time and space and the primary existence is to have what the sources from the Monado Archives describe as "Omnipotent powers over the fate of the Universe" at least hints the plane on which it exists. Page 237/254

There's also the fact that the Passage of Fate seems to have range effecting on more than one universe. We already discussed in the OP about XB2 and XB1 existing in different universes. And the decisions described as "Fated to happen, it cannot but happen" from the Architect imply the Passage of Fate appears to be able to effect that universe as well. Same as the Monado Archives but page 252/254 this time and at the bottom of the page. It specifically states that Shulk becoming the Passage of Fates new owner is the reason he is able to create a world giving birth to an infinite number of possibilities. By pretty much destroying the passage of Fate. I know the possibilities thing is vague, but there's other details in the OP.

And there's some notes in Future Connected DLC expansion. One of the main plot points is a extradimensional rift that keeps expanding and sends Fogbeasts. And I vaguely recalled statements related to Zanza or Alvis. And the title "Future Connected" is directly referring to Alvis' statement about the "Boundless world". And the rift appears to be a portal to an alternate universe. So the Passage of Fate is clearly something more massive than "Just an alternate timeline." But I still think the most logically conclusion is that it exists above the multiverse.

Considering some notable points about Memory Space/Passage of Fate.

• It is stated to be Beyond Time and Space, meaning farther than time and space can reach.
• It also controls every event in the Xenoblade Chronicles 1 Universe. And has shown to effect fate in Xenoblade Chronicles 2's universe
• It prevents the existence of an infinite number of possibilities, trying to force it as a single possibility via omnipresent wide Fate Manipulation
• Destroying it is what allows there to be an infinite number of possibilities
• The event also is what's effecting the space time of what's clearly more than one universe; and is clearly more massive than just a single space-time continuum.
• It's described as a dimension or place "Oh High" from Xenoblade's universes as addressed from the OP.

So I still think it's a Low 1-C feat with all that being said.

Also, the Nopon Archsage's place seems to have even stronger Low 1-C statements as addressed in the OP; which Alvis at least has no reason to be below that.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

A pocket dimension usually exists within a universe, no? Memory Space being beyond space and time doesn’t really match with that unless I’m wrong about something here.

Not necessarily, no, but whether Memory Space is a pocket dimension or not is irrelevant to my actual point, either way. This being that "beyond space and time" doesn't actually refer to the Passage of Fate itself, it refers to its power being used to create another reality that exists part from the multiverse, which, as I said before, is a feat of range, not AP.

At least, that's what I took it to be going by the OP's explanations. You're free to correct me in that regard.

First of all, Beyond means "Farther away" And one of it's synonyms is "Over" or "Above". I don't really see "Outside of" as a synonym when I look up Beyond. That's what I get when I google "Define Beyond".

Yes, and either of these things can be functionally the same as "outside" depending on the context of a phrase, as I said. "Beyond this door," for example.

Anyway, there is a back up statement. This is the Passage of Fate, and your visions. People live and die at the mercy of Zanza. What that means is that Memory Space/Passage of Fate exists embody the fact that Zanza has omnipresent wide Fate Manipulation over the universe. I know that's not really an AP feat, but the fact that it exists beyond time and space and the primary existence is to have what the sources from the Monado Archives describe as "Omnipotent powers over the fate of the Universe" at least hints the plane on which it exists. Page 237/254

Refer to what I said in my response to the post above.

I also don't really understand the point of bringing up all of these other statements, given how they amount to Tier 2 feats, at best, and don't really relate to anything that might support Low 1-C. I've never even suggested that the Passage of Time was just another timeline, as your post seems to imply.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There was still a list of other statements mentioned in the OP. But I was bringing up the other examples because making it simply 2-C would probably be the "Golden Egg" or "Unspecified middle" fallacy. If people just played Xenoblade 1, I could see where some people think would simply be Tier 2, but the fact that Xenoblade 2 greatly expanded the cosmology of Xenoblade's lore; a plane above one or two universes when all universes should be seen as on an equal plane would logically be above all universes.

Well, it wasn't at you, but rather someone else on the thread implied that. I didn't mean to look like I was straw manning you. It was intended to be a general statement.

There's the fact that the Conduit also has a bunch of lore statements that were addressed in the OP.

• It is described as Magnetic Abnormal Matter or Perpetual Motion Machine
• It's an infinite energy engine; or it's considered identical to the Zohar from Xenogears/Xenosaga. Which it's an infinite amount of 4-Dimensional energy as Aeyu quoted on Discord.
• It is a portal to an infinite number of universes on top of the unlimited energy source statements.
• It's power comes from a place known as "The Far Flung dimension" and "A Power we can no nothing about" by the Architect. He has multiverse levels. I agree that Multiverse levels of cosmic awareness couldn't even see it "could be" described as a realm separate from the multiverse that happens to have Type 4 Acausality. But Could be =/= Would be. It's also elaborated by other aforementioned statements. And I don't see why a realm where the creator of the multiverse resides who also grants what's described as "Infinite power" with that "Infinite power" being seen as infinitely superior to any of the parallel universes. Whether individually or altogether can be debated.
• The same Engine has literally demonstrated, not just stated causing phase transition events or Space-Time inflations that are more than capable of effecting more than one universe.
• Also stated to be birthing universes for every possibility and impossibility which there's an infinite amount of
• The energy it has is literally Ether. Which is what all energy in the Xeno multiverse is as well as Alvis literally being the very source of all Ether period. Or in other Xeno games, it's implied even space, time, and higher dimensional planes are made of Ether.

Also, the Land of Challenge has statements in the OP that it says it "Connects all the universes" and also "Transends them all". Which as I mentioned, Alvis as no reason to be below the Nopon Archsage. I can sort of understand skepticism for the Passage of Fate, but Alvis is clearly Tier 1 based on those other details.

 

[MrWarnerTheGreat]

I'm in agreement with what the CRT's upgrade to the cosmology

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

Not necessarily, no, but whether Memory Space is a pocket dimension or not is irrelevant to my actual point, either way. This being that "beyond space and time" doesn't actually refer to the Passage of Fate itself, it refers to its power being used to create another reality that exists part from the multiverse, which, as I said before, is a feat of range, not AP.

At least, that's what I took it to be going by the OP's explanations. You're free to correct me in that regard.

I see. The op does mention that the worlds are dictated by the Passage of Fate according to this scan and this one. Considering this with the use of the word beyond, I think that they point towards it transcending the multiverse because it’s being portrayed as a higher power in relation to the multiverse as opposed to being equal to it.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

• It is described as Magnetic Abnormal Matter or Perpetual Motion Machine
• It's an infinite energy engine; or it's considered identical to the Zohar from Xenogears/Xenosaga. Which it's an infinite amount of 4-Dimensional energy as Aeyu quoted on Discord.
• It is a portal to an infinite number of universes on top of the unlimited energy source statements.
• The same Engine has literally demonstrated, not just stated causing phase transition events or Space-Time inflations that are more than capable of effecting more than one universe.
• Also stated to be birthing universes for every possibility and impossibility which there's an infinite amount of
• The energy it has is literally Ether. Which is what all energy in the Xeno multiverse is as well as Alvis literally being the very source of all Ether period. Or in other Xeno games, it's implied even space, time, and higher dimensional planes are made of Ether.

Yes, and, again, those are all Tier 2 feats, they don't really support anything remotely close to Low 1-C, like I said, even when put in conjuction with the "beyond space and time" line, for the reasons I already outlined above.

It's power comes from a place known as "The Far Flung dimension" and "A Power we can no nothing about" by the Architect. He has multiverse levels. I agree that Multiverse levels of cosmic awareness couldn't even see it "could be" described as a realm separate from the multiverse that happens to have Type 4 Acausality. But Could be =/= Would be.

And you'd still need actual evidence that it exists infinitely above the multiverse, in this case. If there is no solid basis for it, then we don't assume a high-end as the default.

I see. The op does mention that the worlds are dictated by the Passage of Fate according to this scan and this one. Considering this with the use of the word beyond, I think that they point towards it transcending the multiverse because it’s being portrayed as a higher power in relation to the multiverse as opposed to being equal to it.

The Passage of Fate having power over the multiverse could still be accomplished if it was 2-A, though, and as far as I can tell, you don't really seem to disagree with the "beyond space and time" statement not referring to the Passage of Fate, but to Memory Space instead. If so, that means there is nothing really suggesting the Passage of Fate is above the spacetime of the multiverse to begin with.

 

[BeeDub98]

@Ultima Reality Earlier you stated that the being "beyond space and time" doesn't actually refer to the Passage of Fate itself, it refers to its power being used to create another reality that exists part from the multiverse. That's not true, I explained earlier that it's the power of the Monado that does allows him to create new worlds, not the The Passage of Fate. The Passage of Fate is something dictates the course of those worlds, but it's not responsible for it's creation. That is something that can be accomplished by a 2-A feat yes, but it has to be on the same plane of existence as those worlds. The Passage of Fate clearly isn't.

Zanza after acquiring his Meyneth's Monado along with his own gaining her powers, allows him to take control over it granting him that omnipresent wide hax. I also showed you earlier that the Infinite Number of Universes are stated to Co-Exist side by side with one another, meaning right next to each other. Each of these universes have their own timelines with their own Space-Time Axis, Zanza stated that just with his own single Monado created/reset those worlds "Many Times Over", those worlds are stated and shown to be Infinite in scope. So it is highly unlikely that the Passage of Fate is only 4-D when looking at everything together.

Memory Space existing beyond-space and time applies to the Passage of Fate by extension since it has already existed well before Memory Space did, and and when Shulk takes over The Architect his death at the hands of Shulk acquiring Monado being the will of fate itself as "Retribution from on High". Controlling an Infinite Number of Universes by itself is only 2-A, but doing so from beyond it's dimensional scope is baseline Low 1-C

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Basically what Beedub said. It's "The Monado" that's creating all those universes and not the Conduit. Which I agree that those feats are very much Tier 2, but Memory Space still being superior to something that's already 2-A seems to contradict some things you said on the Blazblue thread.

But anyway, Zanza was destroying and recreating the universe multiple times throughout his battles with Meyneth even before Zanza merged with the Passage of Fate/Memory Space. And the explanations in the OP still pinpoint the "Far Flung Dimension" being qualitively superior to any of those "Infinite universes" individually. It's where Alvis resides and is the High Order Domain the Conduit/Zohar came from. So I'm not quite seeing how it's not evidence when some other threads got Low 1-C accepted for less details. Also, I'll copy/paste OP's thing for Nopon Archsage.

However, this is taken one step further in Xenoblade 2. The game introduced a character named "The Nopon Archsage" in the DLC named "The Land of Challenge". This character in essence is a mega fan of the series who has watched the events of each Xenoblade game unfold from his special realm, a realm that he himself had created. This realm serves as a place to connect this Multiverse together and to bring central characters of Xenoblade 1, X and 2 together to compete in special challenges to fulfill his lifelong dream. Shulk, Fiora, Rex and Co are transported to the Archsage’s Realm through portals, however with Elma due to the events of Xenoblade X which will be tackled in a separate revision had come under different circumstances. He also acknowledges the events that happen as stories apart of an overall narrative, this in it of itself doesn't mean much but there are a few other things that further prove this point.
Shulk was unaware of the Archsage’s Realm upon arriving, despite becoming the new host of the Passage of Fate right before Zanza's Demise, which would allow one to see the entirety of a Multiversal Structure on a 5-D scale. This would further imply that The Archsage’s Realm is superior to The Passage of Fate. Another scan that supports the Archsage's realm being superior to the Passage of Fate is his Re-Appearance in the Definitive Edition of the original Xenoblade. This time he has a few more comments on the nature of his realm and it's purpose.

From above quoted text + list of scans. Nopon Archsage has statements about his Land of Challenge not only connecting many worlds and multiple past futures, but also has statements that he "Transcends them". Are those better examples than Passage of Fate? And either way, it should scale to Alvis by nature that Alvis is still the True Monado and predated everything period. As well as the same Divine Entity that gave them the conduit.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Earlier you stated that the being "beyond space and time" doesn't actually refer to the Passage of Fate itself, it refers to its power being used to create another reality that exists part from the multiverse. That's not true, I explained earlier that it's the power of the Monado that does allows him to create new worlds, not the The Passage of Fate.

That doesn't really affect my point, and you might as well just take my previous posts and replace any mention of the Passage of Fate relating to that feat in specific with "the Monado." The core issue is that the supposed Low 1-C statement does not refer to the Passage of Fate to begin with, and thus, can't be used to scale AP in the way you are describing.

That is something that can be accomplished by a 2-A feat yes, but it has to be on the same plane of existence as those worlds. The Passage of Fate clearly isn't.

Based on what, exactly? I think you already get the gist of my argument against this, so I'll avoid repeating myself.

Memory Space existing beyond-space and time applies to the Passage of Fate by extension since it has already existed well before Memory Space did

Which I agree that those feats are very much Tier 2, but Memory Space still being superior to something that's already 2-A seems to contradict some things you said on the Blazblue thread.

That just delves into the issue of whether or not the statement even relates to AP in the first place, which I've already brought up in my posts above. Yes, it would be Low 1-C if it indicated outright superiority to the spacetime of the multiverse, but "beyond" is too vague of a term to infer that from, and it can just as easily mean "outside," and I already explained that simply being external to something is not grounds for assuming infinite superiority, no?

But anyway, Zanza was destroying and recreating the universe multiple times throughout his battles with Meyneth even before Zanza merged with the Passage of Fate/Memory Space. And the explanations in the OP still pinpoint the "Far Flung Dimension" being qualitively superior to any of those "Infinite universes" individually. It's where Alvis resides and is the High Order Domain the Conduit/Zohar came from. So I'm not quite seeing how it's not evidence when some other threads got Low 1-C accepted for less details.

None of the paragraphs in the OP actually convinced me of Low 1-C, but if the "Far-Flung Dimension" is really the same place as the higher-order domain which the Wave Existence came from as depicted in Xenogears, then I guess that tier would be fine by me.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

So what seems to be the conclusions here?

 

[Theglassman12]

Gonna be tackling one point at a time. First off having Monado 1 Shulk be not combat applicable is beyond stupid, this is ignoring the fact that Shulk can fight wildlife and mechons that are High 8-C to begin with with no issues, and that homs specifically are the only things immune to the Monado 1, and Homs aren’t exactly humans given they’re just ether versions of Zanza’s image on what humans are, and humans were a thing before his Big Bang event. And also matter manipulation and deconstruction on Monado 1 is a massive no in my book. You’re giving the Monado 1 the thing that was specifically stated in the Monado Archives that mechon specifically was able to reverse engineer to deconstruct any life on Bionis, when the Monado 1 has been shown numerous times to not work on any homs at all. Why would it have the ability to deconstruct homs when it’s literally unable to hurt homs. Keeping it for Monado 3 makes more sense since he’d have comparable abilities to Zanza at that point who can create deconstructing mechons with his power.

 

[BeeDub98]

Gonna be tackling one point at a time. First off having Monado 1 Shulk be not combat applicable is beyond stupid, this is ignoring the fact that Shulk can fight wildlife and mechons that are High 8-C to begin with with no issues, and that homs specifically are the only things immune to the Monado 1, and Homs aren’t exactly humans given they’re just ether versions of Zanza’s image on what humans are, and humans were a thing before his Big Bang event. And also matter manipulation and deconstruction on Monado 1 is a massive no in my book. You’re giving the Monado 1 the thing that was specifically stated in the Monado Archives that mechon specifically was able to reverse engineer to deconstruct any life on Bionis, when the Monado 1 has been shown numerous times to not work on any homs at all. Why would it have the ability to deconstruct homs when it’s literally unable to hurt homs. Keeping it for Monado 3 makes more sense since he’d have comparable abilities to Zanza at that point who can create deconstructing mechons with his power.

Homs are based on Zanza's image of what humans are because that is exactly what Zanza was before the phase transitional experiment. The Monado is a blade literally made of Ether. Homs aren't necessarily immune to it, but more so resistant because Zanza states that it's in shackles, and shulk is only just beginning to grasp it's power. When it's in full power it's able to cut through any homs no problem. In fact that's how Dickson was killed with a Replica Monado. It's why I proposed making the key non-combat applicable in the first place, but again the point about wildlife was already brought up, and thus it was suggested to list it as a weakness rather then just making the entire key non-combat applicable.

Also before you comment on anything else, know that the proposed Tier for Alvis was disagreed with.

 

[Theglassman12]

Having it as a weakness I'm ok with, I don't have a problem with it being a weakness since it's verse specific, and if anyone could copy a Homs to fight Shulk then yeah he's screwed but not for literally any living thing ever. Also I noticed 1-C Alvis is rejected, and a couple other parts on the scaling is being questioned, I will give some input on that soon but I want to tackle the minor things first.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We already tackled the High 8-C points, it is very much combat applicable, it just doesn't hurt Homs, High Entia, and Nopons from Bionis specifically. 1-C Alvis does need more evidence. But Low 1-C seems plausible for reasons scaling from Nopon Archsage for Alvis, but Ultima is unsure about Memory Space being Tier 1.

 

[Theglassman12]

Ultima said that Low 1-C via the far flung dimension would be ok if it’s legit, he never once said anything about Nopon Archesage being legit scaling.

Anyways I noticed the matter hax got moved to Monado 3 so I’m gonna move to my next point. Type 4 Acausality for Shulk and Alvis I’m ok with since they have blatant statements of existing outside of the passage of fate. However I disagree with Zanza having it and skeptical on Meyneth scaling. Zanza when he was foreseeing the entire future when he had both Monados said Now that I wield both Monados, I should be at one with the passage of fate. Meaning he didn’t actually manage to get what he wanted, further proven when Shulk and Zanza fought he’s even more surprised on what’s going on, only to be revealed that Alvis was preventing him from being one with the passage of fate. So I don’t think Zanza should have type 4 Acausality. Meyneth I’m not really sure if this should scale as it’s from “being outside the pre-established harmony” which doesn’t get much elaboration on, and Alvis doesn’t refer to her as being able to exist outside the passage of fate as opposed to Shulk and him. Also side note type 2 shouldn’t be a thing for Shulk since the whole argument for it was mostly the passage of fate and being unpredictable to Zanza, but given more elaboration its type 4 instead of 2.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ultima didn't even comment on Nopon Archsage, so there wasn't really a counter argument, but Elizhaa and Ogubundi accepted Land of Challenge as Low 1-C.

Acausality type 4 should not apply to Meyneth yes, Zanza doesn't become one with the Passage of Fate till he gets both Monados; otherwise they're both limited. Dark649 was the one who said Zanza should have it by nature that he and Shulk are technically the same person. But I don't want to delve too much into that. But his Fate manipulation is a very strong level of that though.

 

[Theglassman12]

Iirc Dark only proposed scaling the resistances Shulk had to Zanza. Mostly from the ether gems and stuff since he essentially used his body. Though I personally tried arguing Zanza would have type 2 back in the day but i didn’t pay too much attention to where Zanza explained he’s not able to be one with the passage of fate.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[BeeDub98]

Ultima said that Low 1-C via the far flung dimension would be ok if it’s legit, he never once said anything about Nopon Archesage being legit scaling.

Anyways I noticed the matter hax got moved to Monado 3 so I’m gonna move to my next point. Type 4 Acausality for Shulk and Alvis I’m ok with since they have blatant statements of existing outside of the passage of fate. However I disagree with Zanza having it and skeptical on Meyneth scaling. Zanza when he was foreseeing the entire future when he had both Monados said Now that I wield both Monados, I should be at one with the passage of fate. Meaning he didn’t actually manage to get what he wanted, further proven when Shulk and Zanza fought he’s even more surprised on what’s going on, only to be revealed that Alvis was preventing him from being one with the passage of fate. So I don’t think Zanza should have type 4 Acausality. Meyneth I’m not really sure if this should scale as it’s from “being outside the pre-established harmony” which doesn’t get much elaboration on, and Alvis doesn’t refer to her as being able to exist outside the passage of fate as opposed to Shulk and him. Also side note type 2 shouldn’t be a thing for Shulk since the whole argument for it was mostly the passage of fate and being unpredictable to Zanza, but given more elaboration its type 4 instead of 2.

You're kind of taking that scene a bit out of context, the full quote Zanza says is "Now that I wield both Monados, I should be at one with the Passage of Fate. Why does the vision end here?" This is referring to why he can't see Shulk's future, not that he doesn't take control over the Passage of Fate. He's surprised because Shulk is the only person who stands a chance against him due to his existence outside of the Passage of Fate, and eventually awakening to the power of Monado III allows Shulk to take control over it by absorbing the power of Zanza's and Meyneth's Monado's. As to why he can't see Shulk's future, Alvis stated that Shulk's existence is that of a fluctuation, and as such he exists outside the results of the future, basically meaning he doesn't really exist in the future, and is unaffected by a timeline reset, they should still have Type 2.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Zanza and Meyneth's entire backstory alone should give them Type 1 at bare minimum; it's mentioned they destroyed and recreated the universe countless times throughout their many battles. And Type 2 requires being inexistent in the future so that you cannot be predicted by precognition or cosmic awareness.

 

[Theglassman12]

@DarkDragonMedeus said precognition nulling was because he was outside of the passage of fate. That's type 4, and also I was the one who argued type 2 back in the day but its clearly not the case given they explain it's because he's outside of the passage of fate.

@BeeDub98 and Alvis doesn't remotely acknowledge Zanza or even Meyneth as being ones who exist outside of the passage of Fate. Also no type 2 is being a singularity, where there is no future or past for you. Existing outside of the results of the future would grant type 4, not type 2. Type 4 is via existing in a different cause and effect system, type 2 is where you're not even in the future or the past, which isn't the case for Shulk because the explanation is he exists outside of the passage of fate.

 

[BeeDub98]

That's only part of the explanation not the entire thing, the Passage of Fate acts as the Causality System yes, but the Precognition all Monado wielders have comes from looking into the Passage of Fate which has dictated and read the past present and future.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yes, and existing outside of the passage of fate would be type 4, because you exist in a different set of cause and effect system than normally. The Monado predicting the future doesn’t exactly prove type 2, that just proves why it would be type 4 because you exist outside of the cause and effect system the monado’s precognition uses.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, we pretty much already agree Shulk has Type 4, so I think we're focusing on Zanza. At least Type 1 I can promise that it can stay, but unsure about giving him Type 4. Type 2 would be a Golden Egg fallacy now.

 

[Theglassman12]

Type 1 Acausality for Zanza and Meyneth I’m perfectly ok with. And I guess Alvis should also have it given he remembers the previous universe too.

 

[Theglassman12]

Btw, while we're waiting for the acausality stuff to finish, I might as well include my little CRT that I wanted to make since reading MA and looking at the pages.

Shulk should lose his Perception Manipulation because it's stated that the Antennas is where the Telethia senses came from. The original argument behind perception Manipulation was because Alvis said to take down the telethia you need to stop it in its tracks and dull its perception. Given his description it sounded like Monado purge would nullify your senses, but not only does the cutscenes show Alvis cutting off the antenna, but the Monado Archives elaborate on the weakness of the telethia, so it should be removed from shulk and anyone who scales, and be an added weakness for the telethia.

There's also a maybe sort of possible upgrade for the High 8-Cs. Long story short, Xord somehow survived the explosion that took out the entire Ether Mine. If this does go through, we need a calc on how powerful the bomb in Xord's mech must be to take down the entire Ether Mine. But I won't lose much sleep if this gets rejected.

Zanza should have mind reading and power mimicry due to the fact that Memory Space is stated to read the party member's memories of their previous villains, and replicating them for the cast to fight. Downside for this is the fact that the power mimicry only works on how strong they last remembered the characters to be. So if someone like GT Goku went in Memory Space and it copied Frieza and Cell, it wouldn't be much of an issue for him since he's far stronger than both and can oneshot both easily. So this should be a weakness stated on his page.

Why does Zanza have space time manipulation from controlling the passage of fate? I don't recall him ever mentioning being able to control all of space and time, nor did I find anything about space and time being warped in his image aside from the divine will beyond space and time, which is vague as hell. And where's the indication that he was passively warping space and time? Cause again I don't recall that being a thing. If there's no other explanation for space time manipulation I propose removing it from the abilities for both Zanza and Shulk.

Fear Manipulation via Monado Fear needs to go, having Fear hax just on the name of the ability is a no no, otherwise FF characters would have Biological manipulation just because they have the Bio spell, and I don't recall Monado Fear being stated in descriptions to actually make the victim scared. So that should go.

Soul Manipulation for Zanza also needs to go since its not exactly souls he's manipulating, it's just memories being materialized.

Black Hole creation via Black Hole well... not only does this again sound like the same reason Fear Manipulation is a thing, but after actually finding the attack itself well... it does not look like a literal black hole is being made here, just some large splash damage here.

Any and all abilities Zanza has on his true self state via Memory Space should be moved to his both monado keys since that's when he was able to make memory space.

Attack Reflection via Spike Damage should be replaced with Damage transferal, this page was made after I made my revisions towards Xenoblade 1, but given the explanation it fits the mechanics of Spike damage way better than attack reflection, since attack reflection requires literal reflecting the attack back, while damage transferal both fighters take the same damage, which is basically what Spike does. So all but Melia should replace the attack reflection, the only reason Melia keeps it is because her reflect spell actually checks off what Attack reflection is supposed to be, so she essentially gets a new ability to herself.

Dickson should have non physical interaction due to Nebulas being common enemies throughout the Bionis, and he explores all around the Bionis through most of his life, so he should have likely Non Physical Interaction.

Shulk needs to have Energy Projection via Monado buster moved to his Monado 1 key since that's literally one of his starting abilities with the Monado.

Where exactly does life force absorption resistance comes from for Shulk? Cause I don't remember that being something ether gems could resist, unless there was a status ailment I wasn't aware of.

Soul destruction shouldn't be a thing for Shulk as that's just more non physical interaction. Having Soul destruction would be legit if he actually attacked someone's soul when inside of a body, but he never did that last time I checked.

Transmutation honestly should be biological manipulation for Monado 3 Shulk, since he changed her biological structure from being a mechon to full on Homs.

I don't see why Causality Manipulation is a thing for Shulk, the closest thing we have for Shulk is he understands the law of causality, but that doesn't mean he's able to manipulate causality itself. This is like understanding the biological structure of a species, and all of a sudden getting biological manipulation for understanding it.

Why does he resist Reality Warping via the world reconstruct when it's stated to just warp memory space? If it was trying to warp shulk I can see it but there's no implication that it was targeting him. Also why would he resist Existence Erasure when his wish wasn't even targeting him since he's not an actual god to begin with? If I can get some more elaborations that can support this that would be good, if not I propose removing them both.

Is everyone that isn't Shulk's resistance negation based off of Chain Attacks? If so that shouldn't apply to them since it requires a group effort for it to work, and in 1 on 1 fights that's unusable for them at all.

Melia's resistance to biological manipulation isn't necessarily true, the main reason why she didn't turn is because she's a half breed, and only full blooded high entias would be affected due to being 100% Telethia. Which is the main reason her and Tyrea weren't turned into telethia due to them being half breed.

Telethias being able to disintegrate matter with the energy beams, can I get a video or scan stating they could do that? Cause I don't remember that happening. If they're scaling via Mechon weapons deconstructing homs I already explained why that's a Mechon thing and at best would scale to the gods.

 

[BeeDub98]

@Theglassman12 Dude, do you not realize this is titled part 1 for a reason? I want to take care of the big stuff first, most of that was gonna be addressed in part 2.

 

[Theglassman12]

The comments in this thread implies the next Xenoblade thread is gonna be Xenoblade 2 focused. If that's true we might as well get the Xenoblade 1 stuff out of the way here.

 

[BeeDub98]

It wasn't, I never said that. People jumped to that conclusion by themselves. I even said that part 2 is gonna be "mostly" dedicated to XB2, but still covering the remaining stuff for part 1. Anyway I need to sleep.

 

[BeeDub98]

Don't have alot of time, so I'll just respond to a few points.

Perception Manipulation I was going to present in part 2, part was gonna be purely dedicated to hax so I didn't want to rush anything. Needless to say yes, Perception Manipulation gets removed.

I was told that Space-Time Manipulation under reality warping so maybe just that. Though it was someone else who posted the reason for Space-Time Manipulation so I'll ask them when I get the chance.

Attack Reflection being replaced with Damage Transfer I agree with

Causality lies within the Passage of Fate, and it acts as the Causality System. We literally just discussed this.

The scans for the Telethia's Matter Hax was lost so that needs to be found again. However Melia does do this to a Telethia. I was actually gonna suggest that the Telethia also gain Absorption through absorbing Melia's guards.

 

[Theglassman12]

If it’s just reality warping well, Zanza’s world reconstruct does just that since he’s warping the memory space to different realms. If you can contact them to give scans for space time manipulation that’d be great.

The causality explanation doesn’t really tell us that they’re literally manipulating causality. That’s just them saying that they understand causality. I already explained why understanding something doesn’t equate to actually manipulating said thing.

Uhh... I don’t really know if that’s really matter had for Melia since that’s how Telethia dies normally. Though the guards disappearing could work as matter hax.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, it is mentioned on Phase Transitions description that the reality warping effect was described as "An inflation in time and space". But it is basically Reality warping in the form of warping all time and space; so having space-time manipulation is kinda redundant yes.

I also think there was more elaborate details regarding how causality works in Collective works; I know BeeDub did most of the hard work. In game, he just says "Understand" yes, but the "Passage of Fate" section of the Monado Archives elaborates more. Than there was a different cutscene were he elaborates what Ether is.

 

[Theglassman12]

Isn't that more of the device that caused the universe nuke to begin with?

What's the Collective works? Also where does it explain the passage of fate on MA? Cause I couldn't find a text that dedicates to talking about what the passage of fate is, only that some characters could use it.

 

[ImNot4nUser]

If it’s just reality warping well, Zanza’s world reconstruct does just that since he’s warping the memory space to different realms. If you can contact them to give scans for space time manipulation that’d be great.

*The causality explanation doesn’t really tell us that they’re literally manipulating causality. That’s just them saying that they understand causality. I already explained why understanding something doesn’t equate to actually manipulating said thing.

Uhh... I don’t really know if that’s really matter had for Melia since that’s how Telethia dies normally. Though the guards disappearing could work as matter hax.

*The scans is not talking about the power to control Causality(not directly), its talking about the visions and their nature.

Shulk visions comes from Zanza, who can see the passage of fate itself and Alvis states that he had the ability to glimpse the future and understand the laws of causality as decided by a "higher power"¹.


So seeing visions=able to understand the laws of causality. But what happens when instead of just seeing into the passage of fate (and thus understanding the laws of causality). you control it instead? remember this is Alvis talking to a Shulk that has no power over he passage of fate?. Shulk is able to understand the Causality that was decided by whoever controls the passage of fate¹.

Those who control the passage of fate acts as the higher power, Shulk even asks "like the Bionis?", at the end its was Alvis who was truly in total control of the passage of fate, acting as the "highest(?) power."

Alvis is also the being responsible for the creation and utilization of something called "The Passage of Fate", what this is an construct that dictates the events of all worlds as it's overarching Concept of Fate.

So: Visions= seeing into the PoF, understanding the Laws of Causality that were decided by a higher power.
Controlling PoF= Being the higher power that control the Causality that those with visions see.

To answer the question, Shulks understand the laws of Causality with visions. He don't control the passage of fate( atleast not in that moment). Those who control the passage of fate are the ones that control Causality

So from my knowledge and understanding, the Passage of fate works as the system of Causality/Fate of Xenoblade. As the Monado Archives says that "Everything moves along the passage of fate" the same Monado Archives acknowledge the existence of other universes and states that Shulk universe(the original one, with Bionis and Mechonis, the one with gods) exist separated to the others.

 

[Theglassman12]

I already addressed this dude, understanding something doesn’t equate to actually manipulating it. By this logic any biologist has biological manipulation just because they understand the biological structures of specific species.

 

[ImNot4nUser]

I already addressed this dude, understanding something doesn’t equate to actually manipulating it. By this logic any biologist has biological manipulation just because they understand the biological structures of specific species.

No, you addressed The point of the scan which is: Visions=Understanding Laws of Causality=/=controlling it.
which is true.

Visions=/=Controlling passage of fate either.

Visions are a power to see into the passage of fate, not control it, the scan address that visions allows to understand Causality that was decided by a Higher power.
Those who control Causality are those that can change the passage of fate as they're the higher power that Alvis address.

Vision(see into the passage of fate)=Understanding Law of Causality decided by a Higher power=/= Actually controlling passage of fate=being the higher power that decides the law of Causality that those eith visions understand.

 

[Theglassman12]

So at best Alvis would scale to this, and not the other gods.

 

[ImNot4nUser]

So at best Alvis would scale to this, and not the other gods.

I... guess? idk.
Supposedly only Zanza with two Monado's fused with the PoF, and the Monado Archives do says

"With a Monado in each hand, Zanza
has become the omnipotent ruler of
the passage of fate, or maybe not...
Is the future he envisioned in danger?"
-Page 236 btw

From My understanding, This was because of Shulk Acausality+Alvis being the true ruler so by logic holding more power over it(?).

Meyneth don't scale to that. And Shulk is protected by PoF via Alvis anyways+ Alvis even grants him the control of the fate of the world.

"Shulk’s will aligns with the providence
of the world. Then, the voice of Alvis
speaks, saying the fate of the world
will be entrusted to Shulk."
-Same page.

But im not the one discussing this CRT, i don't care, i'm just clarifying some things, let the one defending make their arguments