Xenoblade Revision Part 1: Tier Revisions and Minor Hax Adjustments

[BeeDub98]

I thought Alvis best feat of being tier 1 (7D) was being an equal to Wave Existance? If the 3 canons are accepted as being connected wouldn't it be easier to use feats from Xenosaga which are already accepted as 1C?

That's gonna be explored more later. What we do know now is that he transcends at least 2, likely 3 Higher Planes of Infinity and affects at least 2 of them. Plus Alvis and The Wave Existence use the same source of energy. That being the Zohar/Conduit. So it's only part of the argument for 1-C but not the full argument.

 

[Zencha9]

I Agree with 5-D iffy on 6-D

 

[BeeDub98]

Bump

 

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

Even though I've already said it, I'll say it again. I agree with the op and the arguments made throughout the thread.

 

[BeeDub98]

Alright, just to make sure that's

Agreed with 6-D: Ashen Crow, Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete, Thatsafloridathing, ProfessorKuki4Life, XDragnoir, DDM, DatOneWeeb, Veloxt1r0kore, GiverOfThePeace, The Axiom of Virgo, Bob, MrWarnerTheGreat

Agreed with 5-D Low 1-C disagreed with 6-D Low 1-C: Zencha9, Darksmash, Ogbunabali, IonIiosite, I'm_Blue_Daba_dee_daba_die

Neutral: Shrek (No input given for anything)

 

[XDragnoir]

Wait, my opinion is also needed? But i don't know much about the franchise...

Anyway, i am neutral on the Passage of Fate transcending 4D or not, but i agree with everything else.

 

[BeeDub98]

Well I wasn't really sure where you stood, as you just commented about the series connections. However input is appreciated as this revision is going a bit slower then I had hoped. I'll put you down still as neutral on the Tier change and agreement with everything else.

 

[Ionliosite]

Meanwhile, I'm not even counted on the list...

However input is appreciated as this revision is going a bit slower then I had hoped.

You're always free to contact more staff if you need extra input, which, given this is a Tier 1 upgrade, is definitely needed.

 

[BeeDub98]

Ah, sorry mate. I legit overlooked your post. I'll count you, and will contact more staff.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Am currently Neutral/Unsure on 1-C ftm

 

[Darksmash]

I am not really seeing what makes passage of fate 5D.

Upgrading realms/concepts that literally serve a function to the multiverse to a tier infinitely higher than the multiverse seems to have become a trend lately.

"Beyond the boundaries of space and time" could literally just mean a different space time continuum.

 

[BeeDub98]

A different space-time contiuim can still be on the same plane of existence as a world. Deliberately stating a showing that this plane exists beyond the scope of a 4-D Multiverse and affects it as such is 5-D. There is a difference between existing "Outside" of a Multiverse and existing "Beyond" it.

 

[Thatsafloridathing]

I don’t think it’d just be a different space time continuum when there isn’t even enough context to support the existence of an additional space time continuum that operates on a 4-D scale besides the multiverse, especially when the word beyond is being used here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

If it was simply a different space-time continuum, it would have said next to the universe, not above and beyond it. There's already a bunch of space-time continuums that Memory Space is above the combined size of multiple; most likely all of them put together. Then there are planes of existence existing above even that as mentioned above.

 

[liluzivert]

quick question, does existence always equal space time?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not really; it's synonym to reality. But context and semantics take priority over general word definitions.

 

[liluzivert]

Not really; it's synonym to reality. But context and semantics take priority over general word definitions.

so what tier would “destroy existence” or “higher plane of existence” be? I’m asking because I’m pretty sure another franchise got downgraded because they thought it could mean anything.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"Destroy existence" would just be Existence Erasure from the sound if it, but "Destroy all existence" would probably be universal in nature; Low 2-C at least. But if the cosmology is much larger than that, it can be higher accordingly. But source also should be reliable.

 

[liluzivert]

"Destroy existence" would just be Existence Erasure from the sound if it, but "Destroy all existence" would probably be universal in nature; Low 2-C at least. But if the cosmology is much larger than that, it can be higher accordingly. But source also should be reliable.

hmmm. So what would higher plane be?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Depends on the context of the verse and what that "Higher plane" is a "Higher Plane" to.

 

[Darksmash]

I would say "Beyond the boundaries of space and time" has more implication of being something of a different space time than something from a higher infinity.

But I guess if different space time continuums already exist in the verse it could maybe mean the latter? Also I am not really a fan of equating higher worlds to higher D automatically without some qualitative comparisons.
So may I ask what makes the stuff above the passage of fate even higher infinities?
I can see the Archsage maybe being from a higher infinity,but what makes the land of challenge a higher infinity?

 

[liluzivert]

Depends on the context of the verse and what that "Higher plane" is a "Higher Plane" to.

so higher plane of existence could potentially be 1-c if the word existence was used to describe space time before?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Darksmash it's already explained in the OP; there exists an endless number of universes, or even an infinite number of possibilities; heavily implying there already exists and infinite number of space-time continuums. The Passage of Fates is not only beyond one universe, but it's been shown that Alrest which takes place in a completely separate universe from the World of the Bionis & Mechonis. And Architect also describes it being "On high". Also, Passage of Fate/Memory Space is the very reason Zanza sees the past, present, and future on an Omnipresent scale and possesses omnipresent scale Fate Manipulation.

Land of Challenge also exists above even that

@liluzivert yes, it's possible for it to be a 1-A or above statement even. But more evidence required for stuff like that.

 

[Darksmash]

Ok,but what suggests these "infinite possibilities" are seperate space time continuums each? It allowing someone to see all of fate doesn't make it a higher tier,it merely makes it a significant aspect of the multiverse.

And just being "Higher" doesn't mean a higher infinity.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Yeah, pretty much agreed with the points OP brought here

But i'm gonna be real, i just here waiting for Xenoblade 2 revision

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It was pretty much already brought up in the OP this scan compares possibilities to potential phenomena. And there's another scan mentioning Phase transitions birth universe for each and every possibility or impossibility there is. Which is infinite.

I know that, but there's still other details. Being a literal dimension higher or qualitively superior to something that's already infinity on a 4-D scale would logically be Low 1-C.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Agreeing with Beedub and Dark on the upgrade.

On the note of "could just be another space-time continuum", adding to the reasons on why this doesnt make much sense, why would the series narratively treat the realm as anything special with a "beyond" statement if it was just another space-time? Especially when in the case of this verse, there are infinite numbers of them?

 

[Darksmash]

I am not really seeing what makes them seperate space time continuums but whatever.

"I know that, but there's still other details. Being a literal dimension higher or qualitively superior to something that's already infinity on a 4-D scale would logically be Low 1-C."
It can be a dimension and it can be higher,both of which won't make it infinitely higher. The "qualitative" part needs to be expanded with some qualitative comparison like seeing the lower cosmology as fiction or smth

 

[BeeDub98]

Well it stated that the Passage of Fate dictates the course of events across both Xenoblade 1's and 2's Universes, and exists beyond the Multiverse's Space-Time Continuum.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's not a quilted multiverse or anything like that if that's what you're assuming. Shulk's Universe and Rex's universe are different timelines. It is shown when Rex enters land of challenge, this is mid game Rex meeting post game Shulk. Shows when they travel to other universes, they also travel through time. Also, alternate universe in general cases mean alternate timelines.

And "Qualitively superior" is the general case for having X dimensions being legit. Since X dimensions alone isn't enough for any tiering at all anymore.

 

[Darksmash]

Well going any further would probably bring standards into question so I guess 5-D is fine
But still disagree with stuff being higher than 5-D unless I see better proof for qualitative difference

 

[Ogbunabali]

Reading through the OP, the Low 1-C seems fine, but I disagree with anything higher. The justifications seem very weak, and scaling chains like this seem really dodgy

Multiverse (4-D)<Passage of Fate (5-D)<Land of Challenge(6-D)<Far Flung Dimension (7-D)

It requires too much assumptions to assert ontological superiority. Like Shulk not knowing about the Land of Challenge = must be completely transcendent from Passage of Fate. Which is kind of bad reasoning, because Shulk only mentions that this place isn't anything like the two giant robots he lives on, doesn't even mention anything about the other infinite universes in the first place, maybe implying he can't utilize the power in the same way or he doesn't have it at that point, etc. They also refer to the Land of Challenge as a "dream" implying that it may not even be a normal physical space, which could be why Shulk didn't know about it even besides the Passage of Fate, that doesn't have to make it higher dimensional than it. It also assumes that just because the Passage of Fate could see all 4D universes that somehow equates to seeing all 5D dimensions as well, which is a big leap. Maybe the Land of Challenge exists in the same 5D layer as the Passage of Fate it doesn't have to be 6D.

Same with the Far Flung Dimension. It seems the only reason it's assumed to be completely transcendent over the Land of Challenge is that one line from Shulk reminiscing about what that line of the future could mean. Which, even taken at face value that it somehow means it was all orchestrated for this specific thing, it still wouldn't be enough to warrant a whole dimensional leap.

So yeah. I'd be fine with Far Flung Dimension being Low 1-C, but not anything more. There also seems to be a revision being prepared over on discord that could apparently make Xenoblade Chronicles 1-C or High 1-B even, so it might get that rating in the future anyway.

Though I'm not familiar with the verse a whole lot, besides playing the first game a bit years ago. So I might be missing context, if so feel free to enlighten me.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, I believe the reason was because the Architect also appeared to be unaware of the Land of Challenge and that the Land of Challenge appears to have predated the Conduit's Space-Time Transition event that gave birth to those multitude of universes. And that was also the same thing that gave Zanza the power to create Memory Space. And it's not like Zanza was able to reach the Land of Challenge or was ever aware of it. Or even when Shulk basically became the new god tier for the Passage of Fate, even a post game Shulk that even momentarily had all of Zanza's powers seemed to have never known about Land of Challenge. But I can agree that it's rather vague, but Land of Challenge at least has its own stronger Low 1-C statements of being above the multiverse.

And Alvis is clearly above and beyond Memory Space. He's the one who created the conduit which in itself is an infinitesimal fraction of his true power. He is also the literal providence that even God Zanza is nothing to. And is otherwise Xenoblade's version of Wave Existence; meaning he's clearly the true god tier who would logically be above and beyond every other dimension including Land of Challenge. But I agree it's too vague and doesn't truly have any direct comparisons to Land of Challenge, but Far Flung Dimension Alvis resides still clearly got its own statements about being qualitatively super to Memory Space.

I suppose I think a solid 1-C seems out of the question, but I wouldn't doubt Alvis having possibly 1-C. But I think At least Low 1-C is something both Alvis and Monado III Shulk should have. With Zanza merely being Low 1-C.

 

[XDragnoir]

Well, 5D everyone and 6D Alvis, i think it is the best option so far, no? Maybe add a possibly higher for Alvis and anyone else who scales to the Land of Challenge

 

[BeeDub98]

Reading through the OP, the Low 1-C seems fine, but I disagree with anything higher. The justifications seem very weak, and scaling chains like this seem really dodgy



It requires too much assumptions to assert ontological superiority. Like Shulk not knowing about the Land of Challenge = must be completely transcendent from Passage of Fate. Which is kind of bad reasoning, because Shulk only mentions that this place isn't anything like the two giant robots he lives on, doesn't even mention anything about the other infinite universes in the first place, maybe implying he can't utilize the power in the same way or he doesn't have it at that point, etc. They also refer to the Land of Challenge as a "dream" implying that it may not even be a normal physical space, which could be why Shulk didn't know about it even besides the Passage of Fate, that doesn't have to make it higher dimensional than it. It also assumes that just because the Passage of Fate could see all 4D universes that somehow equates to seeing all 5D dimensions as well, which is a big leap. Maybe the Land of Challenge exists in the same 5D layer as the Passage of Fate it doesn't have to be 6D.

Same with the Far Flung Dimension. It seems the only reason it's assumed to be completely transcendent over the Land of Challenge is that one line from Shulk reminiscing about what that line of the future could mean. Which, even taken at face value that it somehow means it was all orchestrated for this specific thing, it still wouldn't be enough to warrant a whole dimensional leap.

So yeah. I'd be fine with Far Flung Dimension being Low 1-C, but not anything more. There also seems to be a revision being prepared over on discord that could apparently make Xenoblade Chronicles 1-C or High 1-B even, so it might get that rating in the future anyway.

Though I'm not familiar with the verse a whole lot, besides playing the first game a bit years ago. So I might be missing context, if so feel free to enlighten me.

I will not be around much to talk today but I will say this to address the points you made.

Shulk doesn't only just state that it's not apart of the Bionis/Mechonis", he literally says "Where are we? This place..." Meaning that he doesn't recognize the Archsage's Realm despite becoming the Passage of Fate's new host. The only dream mentioned is that of the Archsage saying it is everyone's "Dream" to see the protagonists together in one place, not that the Archsage's realm is a "Dream" in it of itself with no physical point in space.

The Passage of Fate is stated to be beyond the Space-Time Continuum of a 4-D Infinite Number of Universes, and is shown to affect them from beyond which by itself makes it Low 1-C on a 5-D Spectrum, this is something that you yourself said was legit when we talked over the summer. Zanza takes control with the Passage of Fate, which allowed the Architect (Zanza's other half) to see those Infinite Universes. However just like that "Far Flung Dimension" that the Architect cannot see or know anything about despite 5-D levels of Cosmic Awareness, but that's not all that supports Alvis transcending the Passage of Fate as well. Alvis' Vision for the Future, comes after he connects the three Monado's together to warp the world in a new image, you look at this 27:30 to confirm this fact. However in the game's new epilogue Future Connected shows that this had a major affect on the world, in that Shulk has lost his power of Precognition, meaning the Passage of Fate is now gone. However this had 0 effect on Alvis. 5-D Level Power had 0% affect on the clear Wave-Existence character of Xenoblade, nor did it have any affect on the Nopon Archsage. Two realms that the Passage of Fate can't see, reach and affect.

There is also the fact that as DDM mentioned that Alvis is the clear "Wave Existence" character of Xenoblade, both use the same source of power and take the same form. Which would further imply that his above the Archsage since it's his actions as the Wave Existence character that allows the events of the Arcshage to happen. Alvis has omniscience where as The Archsage does not.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Shulk doesn't only just state that it's not apart of the Bionis/Mechonis", he literally says "Where are we? This place..." Meaning that he doesn't recognize the Archsage's Realm despite becoming the Passage of Fate's new host.

And he proceeds to say "It's not the Bionis or the Mechonis", implying those 2 are the only points of references he has.

The Passage of Fate is stated to be beyond the Space-Time Continuum of a 4-D Infinite Number of Universes, and is shown to affect them from beyond which by itself makes it Low 1-C on a 5-D Spectrum, this is something that you yourself said was legit when we talked over the summer. Zanza takes control with the Passage of Fate, which allowed the Architect (Zanza's other half) to see those Infinite Universes. However just like that "Far Flung Dimension" that the Architect cannot see or know anything about despite 5-D levels of Cosmic Awareness, but that's not all that supports Alvis transcending the Passage of Fate as well. Alvis' Vision for the Future, comes after he connects the three Monado's together to warp the world in a new image, you look at this 27:30 to confirm this fact. However in the game's new epilogue Future Connected shows that this had a major affect on the world, in that Shulk has lost his power of Precognition, meaning the Passage of Fate is now gone. However this had 0 effect on Alvis. 5-D Level Power had 0% affect on the clear Wave-Existence character of Xenoblade, nor did it have any affect on the Nopon Archsage. Two realms that the Passage of Fate can't see, reach and affect.

I mean, ok? This doesn't really have anything to do with what I said though?

There is also the fact that as DDM mentioned that Alvis is the clear "Wave Existence" character of Xenoblade, both use the same source of power and take the same form. Which would further imply that his above the Archsage since it's his actions as the Wave Existence character that allows the events of the Arcshage to happen. Alvis has omniscience where as The Archsage does not.

I mean, this is about connecting all the Xeno games together, and whether they are actually connected and whether these characters would scale I don't know. As I said in my post, there is a revision about this being prepared on discord that would be made in the future.

I'm just judging Xenoblades Chronicles based on its own merits of whats in the OP.

 

[BeeDub98]

No that just implies that it's a different place from his home.

You said you weren't sure on how seeing Endless Number of 4-D Universes equates to 5-D. I showed you the scan of the Passage of Fate existing beyond the boundaries of Space-Time. That is 5-D. If the Architect can see the endless number of Universes on a 5-D Spectrum, because his other half Zanza infuses that thing that transcends thr Multiverse's Space-Time Contuim. Shulk takes control of it why would he not be able to do the same? That makes no sense.

You also said that The Land of Challenge is on the same plane as the Passage of Fate. I showed you that isn't the case, like the Far Flung Dimension the Land of Challenge wasn't able to be seen or be affected by either host of the Passage of Fate.

 

[Ogbunabali]

No that just implies that it's a different place from his home.

It also implies that that's the only thing he can compare it to. Point is, him not knowing about the place isn't a foolproof evidence.

You said you weren't sure on how seeing Endless Number of 4-D Universes equates to 5-D. I showed you the scan of the Passage of Fate existing beyond the boundaries of Space-Time. That is 5-D. If the Architect can see the endless number of Universes on a 5-D Spectrum, because his other half Zanza infuses that thing that transcends thr Multiverse's Space-Time Contuim. Shulk takes control of it why would he not be able to do the same? That makes no sense.

I never said this. I said that the Passage of Fate seeing all the 4D universes wouldn't equate to the Passage of Fate seeing all 5D dimensions. That's a big leap of logic.

You also said that The Land of Challenge is on the same plane as the Passage of Fate. I showed you that isn't the case, like the Far Flung Dimension the Land of Challenge wasn't able to be seen or be affected by either host of the Passage of Fate.

I said that's a very valid assumptions, because you haven't proven that the Passage of Fate is somehow infinite 5D. Just because the Passage of Fate is 5D it doesn't automatically mean that it can manipulate or be just as strong, or stronger, or somehow become omniscient about all other 5D things.

Think of it this way. You're a 3D human, does that mean you have all infinite power over all 3D things? Or does it give you knowledge about everything in our 3D universe? No, not really.

In the same way that's not how it works with 5D too. You can have 5D that's stronger than another 5D. Or 5D that exist beyond the perception of another 5D thing. Just because a baseline 5D ability (Passage of Fate) can see all 4D universe it doesn't mean anything about its power over other 5D universes/dimensions/anything really. You're asserting ontological superiority for the Land of Challenges because you're implying the Passage of Fate didn't know about it (which is already a flawed argument), that's not how transcendence work. Unless you have some other quotes that prove that the Passage of Fate is somehow infinite 5D and that it can observe all 5D universes/dimensions, than this argument is null.

Far Flung dimension being Low 1-C is fine, but not anything higher based on the presented evidence.

 

[BeeDub98]

How would that imply those are the only things he can compare it too? If that were the case wouldn't he flat out say that those are the only things he can compare it too? If The Architect can literally see the entire Multiverse on a 5-D Spectrum due to his other half fusing with that 5-D Spectrum, and Shulk taking control over that 5-D spectrum. Why would this only imply that his world is the only one he can compare it to when he takes control of the power of something that see's all worlds? Again that's highly illogical, and very inconsistent with the scans shown. I did mis-read what you said about the other part so I do apologize.

Anyway I need to go.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Monado Archives does mention Zanza having "Omnipotent powers" over the Passage of Fate; not saying that means anything. Though, I do agree that it's possible for 2 or more Low 1-C multiverses to exist. I can see skepticism of Alvis reaching 1-C based on Xenoblade statements alone, so now I'm only going to propose Low 1-C for the time being; 6-D would still be that so no "At least" or "Likely higher" or anything like that, just Low 1-C. I'm starting to see that Passage of Fate and Land of Challenge appear to only have 5-D statements with the latter having arguably more clarified context. Alvis's "Far Flung Dimension" on the other hand is clearly ontologically superior to the Passage of Fate/Memory Space however; but that would still be 6-D, and thus only Low 1-C yes.