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Xenoblade Revision Part 1: Tier Revisions and Minor Hax Adjustments

That line literally said he might have not been able to become one with the passage of fate, which is further proven to be true given how Alvis screwed his plans, so yeah this would scale to Alvis
 
I'm personally fine if Alvis is the only one who has Casuality manipulation outright, but Zanza still has Fate Manipulation with Monado III Shulk essentially having powers better than Zanza's in every way.
 
Zanza having fate manipulation is not the point I was making, the point I'm making is that understanding causality does not mean manipulating causality. They're not the same thing.
 
Monado speed is ok, type 4 Acausality I’m ok with for Shulk and Alvis, but disagree with that scaling to Zanza and Meyneth, and I’m also arguing type 2 shouldn’t be a thing since it stems from passage of fate, which is type 4. High 8-C Shulk being not combat applicable has been rejected, and some of my CRT has been accepted.
 
Alrighty and what about tiering? Is there any major disagreements? From what I can tell it should be something like this

"At least 2-B, likely 2-A possibly Low 1-C"

or if ya wanna just delete 2-B since it comes from a single statement while stuff like 2-A comes from in-game lore and guidebooks.

"2-A possibly Low 1-C"
 
At the very least we should nuke 2-C. It’s unnecessary as hell for the verse for scaling to just the two games when there’s states to be endless numbers of universes, and said universes being alternate space times if what Xenoblade X is anything to go by. 2-B to 2-A I’m ok with, unless we see more infinite world statements, but I have some comments about low 1-C. But I want to get the type 4 Acausality stuff out of the way before I talk about Low 1-C.
 
I agree with nuking Type 2 Acausality; and personally fine with Zanza and Meyneth simply having type 1. 2-C is just the absolute bare minimum; but if XBX has stuff to argue about it being much higher than that, I'm fine with nuking that instead of 2-B; but at least I'd like to get rid of one or the other.

But I'll get to Low 1-C later and still believe it should be fine for Alvis.
 
@DarkDragonMedeus from what Josh has told me, there's some monado archives statements that could back 2-B up, but if the god tiers already have feats of affecting the endless universes, and X having statements of being alternate timelines being legit, then I don't really see why 2-C is a thing imo.

@BeeDub98 can you comment so we can get the type 4 discussion done? Or are you ok with Alvis and shulk scaling, and the type 2 removal?
 
Soooooo what was everything that has been accepted and rejected thus far. I'm gonna make a list to be able to keep track of it better.
 
Literally everything I just said when you asked last time, plus Ultima saying the only thing that might be legit would be the far flung dimension for tier 1. Type 1 Acausality would be a thing for Zanza and Meyneth but that’s all they would get.
 
Okii lemme see here.


Accepted (from what I've seen)
- 2-A Possibly Low 1-C for God tiers (With Low 1-C scaling off of the Far Flung Dimension)

- Type 1 Acausality for Zanza and Meyneth (plus maybe Alvis and Shulk? Idk that can be discussed in a bit)

- Monado Speed granting a 40% speed amp based on the buff in Xenoblade 2

- Type 4 Acausality for Shulk and Alvis with Type 2 being nuked.

- Memory Space Hax (Ngl this is the most fun one for me)

- Yeeting Perception Manipulation and instead adding a weakness to the Telethia's profile

- Just upgrading Zanza's fear manipulation to empathic manipulation.

- Soul destruction for Shulk getting yeeted (Memory Space related)

- Also Soul Manipulation for Zanza gets yeeted though he keeps Soul destruction due to killing Meyneth's soul.

- Changing the Attack Reflection from Spike to Damage Transferal

Denied
- Low 1-C scaling based off of PoF and Archsage's dimension. (More so them existing outside the multivese which would really just be a range upgrade)

- High 8-C Shulk being unable to battle. (Fairly straight forward. Would only really apply to Shulk going against other Homs and such due to them having the blood of Zanza and Shulk showing that the Monado works on the wildlife)


and that should be about it. Lemme know if I missed anything.
 
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BeeDub’s not commenting on Acausality at all so we might as well add the stuff that’s accepted except for tier 1. Still want to give my inputs on that
 
Like I said, I want the other stuff no one's bothering to comment about out of the way before I get to tier 1.
 
Anyways with those out of the way I might as well say my two cents on the tier 1 stuff. Land of Challenge and Passage of Fate stuff was already refuted so I won't waste any time there.

First off regarding the far flung dimension, why are we assuming this random dimension the conduit comes from is automatically a higher dimensional realm? The Architect saying he doesn't know where it comes from doesn't mean it's higher dimensional, this is the same argument I've dealt with back in my 2-A Xenoblade downgrade, and it makes no sense at all as to why that automatically means higher dimension. This is the same logic as trying to argue the hyperbolic time chamber from Dragon Ball is a higher dimensional realm because it's not apart of the multiverse and is just a completely alternate dimension with a different flow of time. Secondly, Alvis always being this strong when the Conduit was sent to Zanza and Meyneth's human forms is complete bullshit. Literally his biography in Monado archives flat out said that after the big bang he became the supreme god of the Xenoblade verse and that he was merely a computer for the experiment, meaning he never was a god before the conduit experiment, so saying Alvis is literally the Wave Existence, or anything close to the wave existence via some random statements is reaching at the highest order, especially when he only got to that level of power after the reset. Even Xenoblade DE, which came out after Xenoblade 2 btw, does not retcon the origins of what Alvis is in that game, so everything about him always being the supreme god before the reset is ridiculous, which puts holes in the logic of him being on the same level of the wave existence since the beginning. All in all, I disagree with the tier 1 upgrade for Xenoblade. The current arguments for it are based off of vague lines that can mean anything without any concrete evidence to back the claims up.
 
I've applied the changes to Shulk's page regarding his powers and abilities section, on top of adding some extra details regarding some of his abilities and attack descriptions with scans.

Also made the attack reflection change to the main cast and removed the resistance negation from their pages.
 
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Because me and Ultima still have some problems with tier 1. I’m willing to wait for BeeDub to reply as that’s the meat and potatoes of this CRT.
 
Then I’ll wait before we apply any changes to the tier. I’ll be adding the ability changes to the pages in the meantime to get them out of the way. Not the end of the world if the tier 1 stuff takes longer to finish.
 
The wave existence scene I have problems with given the guidebooks have contradicting statements on what dimension the wave existence was pulled down towards, but we’ll cross that bridge once Xenogears as a whole have their CRT.
 
If there’s contradicting statement, I still feel like it’d be better to get that out of the way since it’s definitely relevant to what I just stated, seeing that it could disprove anything suggesting that the feat is Low 1-C. Resolving the issue with the statement here could also mean that it wouldn’t have to be dealt with in the upcoming Xenogears/Xenosaga thread.
 
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One of the guidebooks DDM showed me back in my Xenoblade Downgrade thread to prove higher dimensions in Xenogears does not reference the Wave Existence being dragged to the 4th dimension like the game claims it did, rather it got dragged to the 3rd dimension as stated in the top left and bottom left text in this page. I’d rather go through the entire game on top of the guidebooks myself to see if this occurs more than once because if it’s consistently stated in a more updated HH-esque book for Xenogears, I find tier 1 Wave Existence to be iffy to say the least.
 
This scan
image0.png

And this one.
image0.png

Both of those say otherwise; and even outright describes the lower Doman alone as 4-dimensional.
 
That does not debunk the fact that the statement is inconsistent when other sources refer to it as a 3rd dimension, but that's not the point here. Main point being, you have not given me any legitimate proof that the far flung dimension is referring to an actual higher dimension aside from Architect not seeing it, which me and Ultima already explained why that's just a range feat, and not a higher dimensional feat.
 
It's referring to humans being able to see Zohar modifiers as the 3rd dimension, not the entirety/space-time continuum of the lower domain. And Xenosaga has even more evidence of Upper Domain being much higher than Low 1-C; Imaginary Numbers Domain alone is Tier 1 structured; the Collective Unconscious and higher dimension. But that's off topic.

Since Beedub is super busy IRL and so am I; I might write my counter arguments after I mend the PTSD stuff I have atm.
 
No it literally says it fell into the 3rd dimension twice. The exact thing the wave existence mentions in the game, only with 3rd dimension, not 4th dimension.

do you know when you’ll be ready to post it? If so I can let Ultima know when you’re free so he can come in and evaluate this.
 
I won't know for sure when I'll be ready, but maybe Josh might be able to help in the mean time. I pinged him on Discord, but I recall the Zohar/Conduit files he brought up might something he has in mind.
 
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