Wonder Woman vs Son Goku

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Either way Diana could just do the same thing. As people have mentioned before she is so skilled she closes strength and speed gaps.

Doesn't help in the face of analytical prediction, amps, and passively getting stronger in a battle of attrition.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Goku only got stronger throughout Super, not smarter. If anything he got dumber.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Yes, the fact that he's going back to back with even stronger opponents. It's not like Goku's stamina was inferior to begin with, he endured super poison for 9 hours straight as a child with no sleep, and then immediately fought someone comparable to him afterwards.

What? Getting stronger and fighting stronger opponents doesn't give you stamina boosts.

Dude, Goku in this fight fought for a short period of time before getting tired. In his other fights he doesn't fight that long either. In the other fights in the manga he doesn't fight for that long either not sure why you're bring up endurance feats from DBZ.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Gogeta? You mean the dude who's half Goku in every way instead of just the body? Why on earth is Fused Zamasu a comparable situation when everything but 1/2 of his body is Zamasu?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Goku only got stronger throughout Super, not smarter. If anything he got dumber.

I... can't even explain how wrong his character was written and the fact that it's an argument is making me sigh.

 

[Dragomer]

Sorry, but I'm not seeing any Precog here

'Power Mimicry (Can easily replicate other Ki-based techniques after seeing them once, is the fusion of Goku Black who claimed to possess all of Goku's abilities, as he stole his body)'

He litteraly has the analysis from Goku / Goku Black as well as a big advantage in stats and a reactive power level on steroid.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Goku only got stronger throughout Super, not smarter. If anything he got dumber.

I mean sure. But I'd love to see actual evidence of that oVo.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yes, the fact that he's going back to back with even stronger opponents. It's not like Goku's stamina was inferior to begin with, he endured super poison for 9 hours straight as a child with no sleep, and then immediately fought someone comparable to him afterwards.

What? Getting stronger and fighting stronger opponents doesn't give you stamina boosts.
Dude, Goku in this fight fought for a short period of time before getting tired. In his other fights he doesn't fight that long either. In the other fights in the manga he doesn't fight for that long either not sure why you're bring up endurance feats from DBZ.

Didn't read a thing I said, because that's not what I said. And is DBZ suddenly some sort of alternative timeline? Is that not the same character we're using now?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

It's not even like that more of how Goku would attack her feet just to get a opening or he would attack normal then curve it and hit her in the back lol

Dude, she's literally stopped dozens of projectile attacks coming from multiple directions. She can move, she can reposition herself. Could Goku surprise her a time or two? Yes. And then, she's going to keep that in mind and adapt to situation.

Also, aim her feet? Why would someone as skilled as Wonder Woman fall for an obvious feint? C'mon, man, you're acting like she's an amateur.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

They litteraly say they fixed the issue, same for SSJB's issue IIRC.

Toyotaro pretty much re-introduced the stamina issue that was corrected in the Cell arc and almost immediatly course corrected.

Also Goku wasn't tired from analytical prediction, he was tired from fighting Hit, analytical prediction is something Goku constantly does, it's not an additional strain on his stamina.

Also Manga Goku litteraly has a feat of non-stop training for Spirit control on Yardrat for like 150 days.

When was the issue fixed?

No Whis explicitly states Goku is tired from Hit's time skipping meaning he's tired from having to predict over and over.

Can you bring a scan for him literally training and not stopping for 150 days?

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Doesn't help in the face of analytical prediction, amps, and passively getting stronger in a battle of attrition.

I'll give you that, Goku does get stronger but it doesn't take away the fact his stamina decreases as well which leaves him very tired.

Also Diana combats analytical prediction with her own skill of fighting stronger and faster opponents with skill alone.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

@Emperor

Vegeta is currently doing it, and the Yardratians told him that Goku did it when he trained there.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

@Milly

Ok so how did that endurance feat help against Hit?

 

[Dragomer]

They litteraly say they fixed the issue, same for SSJB's issue IIRC.
Toyotaro pretty much re-introduced the stamina issue that was corrected in the Cell arc and almost immediatly course corrected.

Also Goku wasn't tired from analytical prediction, he was tired from fighting Hit, analytical prediction is something Goku constantly does, it's not an additional strain on his stamina.

Also Manga Goku litteraly has a feat of non-stop training for Spirit control on Yardrat for like 150 days.

When was the issue fixed?
No Whis explicitly states Goku is tired from Hit's time skipping meaning he's tired from having to predict over and over.

Can you bring a scan for him literally training and not stopping for 150 days?

Yeah, Goku is tired from fighting Hit, because he litteraly has to fight normaly + fight 0.1 second into the future, it's not analysing that's taking a toil, Goku has had that since the Tao Pai Pai fight, that's something he always does passively, not something he turn on like a video game buff.

Here and that's before Goku underwent the training to use SSJ during his everyday life.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Doesn't help in the face of analytical prediction, amps, and passively getting stronger in a battle of attrition.

I'll give you that, Goku does get stronger but it doesn't take away the fact his stamina decreases as well which leaves him very tired.
Also Diana combats analytical prediction with her own skill of fighting stronger and faster opponents with skill alone.

It's going to take hours or days for that to happen, as he fought in the time chamber for a year's worth of time in a day. Also, their prediction isn't comparable to Goku.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Yeah but isn't that just meditation?

 

[Dragomer]

Doesn't help in the face of analytical prediction, amps, and passively getting stronger in a battle of attrition.

I'll give you that, Goku does get stronger but it doesn't take away the fact his stamina decreases as well which leaves him very tired.
Also Diana combats analytical prediction with her own skill of fighting stronger and faster opponents with skill alone.

Except Goku has the same skill, they are close in skill at best while Goku has an advantage in AP, being close in skill and inferior in power make her at a huge disadvantage against analytical prediction and reactive power level during a battle of attrition.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

No it won't. Lol. In the Black Arc it happened in one short fight. And why are we assuming they fight non-stop in the Time Chamber? Has Goku's prediction helped him against faster and stronger opponents?

 

[Dragomer]

Yeah but isn't that just meditation?

Nah, he's on top of a pole, with a weird leg position while actively using his energy.

You can clearly see Vegeta is strained from it after doing it for days.

 

[Nitro90]

Dude, she's literally stopped dozens of projectile attacks coming from multiple directions. She can move, she can reposition herself. Could Goku surprise her a time or two? Yes. And then, she's going to keep that in mind and adapt to situation.

Also, aim her feet? Why would someone as skilled as Wonder Woman fall for an obvious feint? C'mon, man, you're acting like she's an amateur.

My whole is he would be able to actual get around it and it her. Thank you for agreeing

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Ok that isn't the same thing as being in a fight. Either way that isn't in the Black Arc where after a few fights they were done.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

@Milly
Ok so how did that endurance feat help against Hit?

To be honest it looks like you're looking for any reason to discredit Goku's stamina. Again, the same Goku who fought Hit=/=This Goku.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

No it won't. Lol. In the Black Arc it happened in one short fight. And why are we assuming they fight non-stop in the Time Chamber? Has Goku's prediction helped him against faster and stronger opponents?

But she's neither faster nor stronger in this battle.

 

[Dragomer]

Ok that isn't the same thing as being in a fight. Either way that isn't in the Black Arc where after a few fights they were done.

That's straining their body while using their energy, that's pretty damn close to what they do in a fight.

It's from before the Black Arc, Goku did that after the Freezer saga according to the DBS manga.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

No it won't. Lol. In the Black Arc it happened in one short fight. And why are we assuming they fight non-stop in the Time Chamber? Has Goku's prediction helped him against faster and stronger opponents?

They didn't fight nonstop, but they fought pretty damn often so. Not sure why you're mentioning faster or stronger opponents, speed is equal, iirc she isn't stronger.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I'm simply looking at fights Goku has had and read he's getting tired. That endurance feat from DBZ doesn't mean much. It's not like Goku had a choice against the poison.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I'm mentioning her skill to fight faster and stronger opponents.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

And what significant stamina feat has Goku got in the Black Arc?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Okay show me once where Goku got stronger in the middle of a fight without being half dead and then getting healed. Without a rage boost of course.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Okay show me once where Goku got stronger in the middle of a fight without being half dead and then getting healed. Without a rage boost of course.

Goku getting UI in the manga technically fits your description oVo.

 

[Nitro90]

Okay show me once where Goku got stronger in the middle of a fight without being half dead and then getting healed. Without a rage boost of course.

Did you forgot what I said earlier about the R Power level for Sayians and how it works you even respond to it

 

[Dragomer]

Okay show me once where Goku got stronger in the middle of a fight without being half dead and then getting healed. Without a rage boost of course.

Toriyama said Saiyans can do that here

Compared to Beerus, God of Destruction, how strong is [Super Saiyan] God?

I suppose if Beerus' strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15.

 

[Akreious]

Broly is also another extreme case, going from barely Base Vegeta/Goku level to stomping both SSB Vegeta and Goku at the same time with no rest.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Death of the author is a beautiful thing. Because, as I always say, feats > statements. Like seriously, are we trusting Toriyama's word of all things? Toriyama, the living meme of how his words can't be trusted? Got rid of Launch because her hair color changes would be confusing for readers, Trunks's hair was always blue, insert "I forgot" statements here Toriyama?

 

[Dragomer]

Death of the author isn't an objective and automatic thing to disregard Word of God that's supported by litteraly everything we're told, we accept plenty of those and that WOG goes perfectly with all the other stuff that was presented to you.

Trunk's hair isn't on Toriyama, the anime came up with that color before the colored version of the manga.

Here's Freezer telling us the same thing , if Toriyama litteraly had a character say what he repeated decades later, it's pretty clear he is serious on that 'growing stronger during a fight'.

And here's Gohan of all people doing it during the TOP's manga versio

 

[Akreious]

Death of the Author only happens when what they say is contradicted by on-screen anti-feats and such. None of which have you proven, Cal.

We have several instances of Saiyans getting ludicrous boosts in power, sometimes gaining entirely new forms simply because RAAAAAAGE (Literally Super Saiyan) or simply because they're very tired but kept on fighting (Ultra Instinct).

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Frieza said they get stronger the more they battle. Of course they do. Goku started off getting slightly hurt by a bullet for crying out loud. Needless to say the more he battled, the stronger he got. Never is it shown that in the midst of the same fight, other than Toriyama's word, that he would get stronger if he continued the fight. The Gohan thing I can't contest, but I can offer so many instances for anti-feats for Goku. Ignoring any fights with Saiyans or partial Saiyans, as well as any rage boosts:

He couldn't break out of Pilaf's castle even if he did it all night before Oozaru triggered.

He lost to Jackie Chun after a very drawn out fight. Should've won if he got stronger throughout the fight.

He was General Blue's equal despite their several fights meaning he would've been superior eventually.

He got stomped by Tao before training with Korin.

He lost to Tien after a very drawn out fight. Granted, through being hit by a car.

He got lost to Tambourine. If he got stronger post Tien he shouldn't have needed rest and wouldn't have been tired.

He got stomped by King Piccolo.

He was Piccolo Jr.'s equal. While he won, he was never portrayed as increasing during the fight.

He was still Piccolo's equal even up to his death to Raditz.

Not Goku, but Vegeta didn't get any stronger without Zenkais against Zarbon or the Ginyus.

He was getting stomped by Frieza throughout the entire fight until Super Saiyan, never closing the gap through this reactive power level.

Not Goku, but Future Gohan and Trunks still lost every single fight they had with the androids. You'd think with it going on for years, their reactive power level would've put them at least on par.

Not Goku, but Vegeta still lost to 18 without getting stronger.

Not Goku, but Gohan would've eventually wiped the floor with Dabura.

Wound up getting winded against Buu.

Who cares about Super.

 

[Nitro90]

The RPL for Saiyans general comes from any time they are injured and healed they become stronger and faster.

Goku black has the fastest and doesn't even need to fully heal I believe he generally doesn't even need to rest he can do it mid battle. Goku has show the the normal saiyan RPL and a skill version ex being Hit,Beerus,Tao,Tien etc to the point moves no longer worked and he knew the weakness of your style after 1 to 2 tries of you doing it

Also why even use Buu when has endless stamina

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I ain't arguing about Zenkais. I'd ask to remove the ability if Zenkais were something different. And Goku Black is explicitly about anomaly, unless you're telling me that Goku's body is capable of going from base level, SSJ2 level at most, all the way to creating a SSB level form after a single fight. Because if so, I don't know how there was any conflict throughout Z. Just unlock a god level transformation and bam, Frieza, Cell, and Buu are dust in the wind.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I ain't arguing about Zenkais. I'd ask to remove the ability if Zenkais were something different. And Goku Black is explicitly about anomaly, unless you're telling me that Goku's body is capable of going from base level, SSJ2 level at most, all the way to creating a SSB level form after a single fight. Because if so, I don't know how there was any conflict throughout Z. Just unlock a god level transformation and bam, Frieza, Cell, and Buu are dust in the wind.

Except they never fought any God tiers in DBZ. The power increase were designed by Toriyama as a plot device for them to catch up to whoever they're fighting at the time. Why would they become God tier when they're fighting Freeza or Cell lmao?

Also, Goku literally did have a massive power boost in BoG. He adapted to the God form's lvl of power in his regular SS form, only in the anime ofc but still. ItsIt's literally a gimmick he invented to justify any illogical power increase lol, but it definitely exists.