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Wind Fish Downgrade (Legend of Zelda)

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I do not particularly care about the downgrade, but I'm just sick of the U-turns left and right. I mean, literally every couple of months there are threads to push for massive upgrades, then massive downgrades come not long after. Inb4 next couple of months has stuff to upgrade them all back. It's pretty much the reason why so many people with valuable input people gave up on Zelda.
 
@DarkDragonMedeus Blame Nintendo for not making certain terminologies in the Zelda lore very clear and instead either make it vague as hell or contradict it later on with the encyclopedias.
 
im putting my commentary on hold till i finish phantom hourglass. Was told it re contextualizes some stuff im arguing here
 
This is honestly getting ******* irritating to debate over and over and over and over and over again.

Its hilarious how fast people interest in downgrade LoZ universe but when it gets upgraded none of the opposition are even here to refute.


Before I start working on my respson.



He says only a memory of this world will remain not that its an illusion but no one else aside from him and Link will have a recollection of what happened here.

This isn't even enough to justify a downgrade at all at best he would be considered unknown but the fact some people take it as a reasoning to go and downgrade other LoZ characters is really hilarious.


when most of the other characters scales to people like Vaati who was powered by Hylia's Light(unless you people are going to say Vaati's stars are also illusions), Zant (who was confirmed that he was going to fuse the light world (a universe) to the twilight realm (literally considered a parallel world with the light world) when he was powered by a fraction of the Triforce of Power, Triforces pieces literally makes you superior or at least equal to alot of deities since triforce users comfortablly scale to each other.

And there's the fact that things produced from one's mind/memories are made real in the LoZ verse


This is no different then them turning a gameplay features into a canon element within their lore to justify things like these. main examples being Oracle of seasons and oracle of ages.

Meaning what wind fish conjured from his mind is real and is literally akin to subjective reality

Subjective Reality is the power that allows the user to manipulate the boundary between reality and unreality. It allows the user to induce reality to what is fiction, fantasy or imaginary, bringing them into existence, as well as turning facts, entities and events into unreality, vanishing them as if they were a mere dream or illusion.

Creation/Summoning: The user is capable of creating and manifesting objects and entities that aren't real at all, and only "exist" in the imagination and dreams of the user and/or other beings.

Here you go Wind fish is just literally doing a really complex form of subjective reality.

To conclude just put :

Unknown|6-C|At least 3-A, possibly Low 2-C (Via Subjective reality)

Or whatever the hell you are going to put. but I full on disagree on a downgrade because people are trigger-happy to call it an an "illusion" when a bunch of statements that does not agree with this sentiment and just keeps it ambiguous for the sake of story telling.

Wind fish by being a deity should at the very scale to his colleagues, plus there's also the fact they added/retcon (whatever you guys want to use because yall keep flip flopping between the two) so that Link had the ToC during his travels.

"Following the sealing, the Triforce divided into three and came to rest in different parts of the kingdom--one within the sealed Ganon, one with the royal family of Hyrule, and one with the spirit of the hero."



Basically when Link left to keep exploring he still had the ToC.
 
I disagree with "is a deity so it scales to his collegues", not just we literally have no reference to compare him to any other character and because it isn't a "standard type of deity" (like the three golden goddesses are similar), but because the argument itself is too vague. We don't scale Major for the same reason, while we could say "is a demon, so it scales to his collegues", or "It's Link, so he scales to his reincarnation" or something similar for other characters, it's arbitrary scaling.

And at most all deities would get the same AP via Subjective Reality, not "full" AP, SS, Dura..
 
You're are literally misunderstanding and giving an oversimplification of what I said.


I'm saying the reason why wind fish could scale to his colleagues is because he is blessed by the light force of Hylia every Zelda deities weilds the light force gifted by Hylia as she was is literally the chief deity of Hyrule but below the 3 GGs.

Ligh sages, light spirits(and other light spirits), GoK, the Dragons from SS, literally Vaati with a fraction of Hylia's light force, empowered Magical artifacts like the MS/FS/ pumped with the light Force of Hylia are all shown and displayed 4-A,3-A,low 2-C feats thanks to the light force.


"at most all deities would get the same AP via Subjective Reality, not "full" AP, SS, Dura ."


What are you talking about? No other God from Hyrule have subjective reality so I don't see why we should suddenly example put on Hylia's page
"subjective reality" when she literally does not have that ability or has nothing to do with it.

Plus unlike wind fish the other characters scales from actual AP feats (physical and magical) not done via "subjective reality".


Like I stated above the only character that would even remotely get downgraded is Wind fish.

Since other characters like Zant powered by a fraction of the Triforce of Power by Ganondorf was confirmed that he was going to merge 2 universes together.

Ganondorf is massively above Zant and Link scales directly to Ganondorf thx to the ToC and the fact that he was also able to absorb Sols (basically Suns that powers the whole Twilight realm).

Vaati directly scales to Hylia (a fraction of her power) since with her light force he was able to create an entire new realm.

There's the dark world stuff etc etc.


TLDR:No other characters wouldn't scale to wind fish because they don't need to plus they wouldn't be downgraded since they scale to other feats.
 
Ok then, my specific problem was using the Wind Fish's ability to create a dream world to scale other deities' AP.
 
AshenCrow777 said:
Like I stated above the only character that would even remotely get downgraded is Wind fish.

Since other characters like Zant powered by a fraction of the Triforce of Power by Ganondorf was confirmed that he was going to merge 2 universes together.

Ganondorf is massively above Zant and Link scales directly to Ganondorf thx to the ToC and the fact that he was also able to absorb Sols (basically Suns that powers the whole Twilight realm).

Vaati directly scales to Hylia (a fraction of her power) since with her light force he was able to create an entire new realm.

There's the dark world stuff etc etc.


TLDR:No other characters wouldn't scale to wind fish because they don't need to plus they wouldn't be downgraded since they scale to other feats.
Click to expand...
Zant stuff wasn't accepted last time it was brought up, it's kinda hard to argue he was doing anything on a universal scale since, despite having the light spirits subdued and powerless and thus nothing really holding back his twilight veil or his power, the sections of twilight that cover most of Hyrule don't even reach cloud height. Zelda also mentions that he simply blankets Hyrule in twilight, and Midna later reveals that the twilight in Hyrule is a results of Zant producing magic crystals that are stealing light and turning Hyrule into twilight (She doesn't mention it merging realms or anything, just that Hyrule was being turned into twilight). Even then, given how he doesn't even reach clouds in the time he has towards the start of the game I don't think the merging would even be close to being fast enough to scale to his normal AP, don't see his normal magical output being universal if it takes him so long to not even reach the sky with his apparent merging of the realms, at best maybe he can get a rating for overtime.

Where were Sols said or shown to power the entire realm? I know they're said to illuminate the realm and are the source of life for the realms citizens who turn into shadow beasts without their light, but where are they said to power the entire realm itself? Could be useful for anyone who scales to Zant and Ganon.

Vaatis feat was discussed a bit in another thread and is likely getting changed from a realm creation feat to just dimensional travel/bfr. Our standards for creation feats need explicit evidence for these types of things, unless we can find statements that say or imply that Vaati created the realm instead of just simply teleporting himself and Link to another dimension we can't really treat it as him creating a realm to fight Link in.

Dark World stuff is still legit yeah, nobody who wields or scales to the full Triforce will be downgraded below universal.
 
About that, ah…
I have heard that the Sacred Realm to Dark World thing was more just a reflection of the evil in Ganon’s heart manifesting in the world itself. As in, the realm changed because of Ganondorf, but not because of Ganondorf, in the same vein as Po turning the spirit realm golden.
 
Vaati is getting removed. So is demise

The issue I still have in general is that per our current creation standards the feet does not fly as 3a/low 2-c because only the island disappeared afterwards

Creation feats on site now requires some sort of universal energy system or accompanying AP feat or AP scaling of which the windfish has nothing

I was told that Phantom hourglass would help recontextualize proving that the island itself is the universe or something. I have yet to finish the game
 
From what little I remember of PH, the Ocean King basically sends Tetra and Link back to their crew and from the crew’s perspective, they were gone for a minute despite taking the entirety of the game to get back to Tetra’s crew.
 
Niko said they were on that other ship for 10 minutes, which Tetra freaked out saying they were gone for much longer than that. So World of the Ocean King is implied to have time that works differently from the World of Hyrule.
 
Or time travel was used. 1 of those cases given that the main partner Link had in Phantom Hourglass had his grave on Hyrule in the next game. This doesn't really matter for the Wind Fish though.
 
about ocean king:
ntNJSRj.png




says he protects the area
 
Soooo was that the “recontextualize” part? Cause they even say the islands aren’t big enough to be contintents
 
statement is more so from the manga:
12_112302_707_1059.png


one tiny problem:
"This is a world I created as king of the seas, it exists in a different dimension to your world"
he created the world, not the dimension. the "world" in context being just, the sea

This also an adaptation, this statement isnt in the game itself
 
They have a decent amount of differences iirc. I recall the OoT manga showing Shiek to be a servant for Ganondorf which wasn’t even a thing in the game itself, and I believe Link to the Past Manga added some additional characters that weren’t even in the game, it’s been a while since I read the mangas so I’m likely missing a lot of specific details but I know that they differ quite a bit from the original games they’re from.
 
jokes aside idk, maybe it could help if someone made a list of all feats, new, rejected, ambiguous or accepted?
 
ok we dont accept the zant argument brought up above
wind fish is currently disputed, and as i pointed out above, even if the full creation was legitimate, it does not abide by wiki standards on creation feats.
and im not really buying ocean king making a universe. I can maybe buy the world (seas/ and or the planet) creation in that dimension if the manga is permitted, but than we need a time frame.
 
For now we should go through the pages and list off the feats that are legit, in need of a recalc, or flat out debunked, and we could work our way for scaling the series from there.
 
We also have a lot of narutoforums that should preferably be transferred to a blog and evaluated.
 
So where should we continue this discussion? Cause following two threads simultaneously is gonna be a pain, so whichever thread is done I can close that thread and we can continue the discussion of the feats in the other.
 
lets conclude wind fish, then the demise thread. we can do a general questions thread or something for calc check/ collecting
 
ill make a concluding section on it:

Arguments in favor of the feat is that the sky is labeled as part of the world, it is called a parallel world in the encyclopedia, and lastly in context the island itself would be the universe, given something similar occurs in phantom hourglass.

My problems:
The sky being part of the world harms the notion the island itself is the universe. as its not part of the island. When the windfish is awoken, only the egg and the ilsand vanish. The sky is unaffected, as is the supposed starry background.

Speaking of said background:
based on how the "stars" in the Wind Fish thing at the end of the Link’s Awakening remake move, you can kind of tell they aren't that big just based on parallax/the way they scroll
plus the fact that they rapidly twinkle and flicker not indicative of them being real stars
Click to expand...

It being called a parallel world is the best thing going for it, yet we only see the island affected. At best you can argue it mad the sky of the world, but we have no evidence of anything beyond the world and atmosphere existing.
 
Cyberblader90 said:
What conclusion have we reached
Click to expand...
So far the conclusion looks to be that we shouldn't scale anyone to universal from this. The majority have agreed that it's not a universal feat, it was brought up that it could be universal but only via subjective reality that wouldn't scale to anyones AP anyway.
 
Yeah the dark world feat is still accepted so full Triforce users and whatnot still scale to 3-A, although without the wind fish scaling they'd likely lose the possibly Low 2-C rating and just be flat out 3-A.
 
Lorule is a country sized pocket dimension

I honestly forgot about Lorule. Been a while since I played ALBW but Lorules Triforce sustained the existence of the entire realm right? Would probably be fine as another universal feat for the Triforce.
 
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