Minor Demise Downgrade (Legend of Zelda)

[Cyberblader90]

Demise

Demise is the final boss and one of the two main antagonists of The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword and is chronologically the first demon king in the series. While his exact origins are unknown, he erupted from the depths of the earth to the surface world in a bid to obtain the Triforce and gain...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Casually created a realm with a sun just as an arena to fight in while not at full power

Not actually true.

https://zeldauniverse.net/forums/Th...iginal-Translations-by-The-Baton-of-the-Wind/

いいだろう。邪魔が入るぬ場所で相手をしてやろう。
Very well. Accompany me to a place in which distractions cannot enter.

In the Japanese text, there is no indication of demise making such a realm. The English version says he was going to prepare a place to fight, but this is nowhere to be seen in the jp version.
https://zeldauniverse.net/forums/Thread/151525-Demise-s-Japanese-Speech-Re-Translated/

As such, it should be removed from justifications.

 

[KingCorporeal]

Sounds good to me.

 

[Chariot190]

What do the guides say about this? Maybe it clarifies it.

 

[Cyberblader90]

i dont recall any of them saying he made it. Usually the preparation line form the English version of the game is the only evidence presented

 

[Chariot190]

i dont recall any of them saying he made it. Usually the preparation line form the English version of the game is the only evidence presented

Did you check?

 

[Cyberblader90]

hyrule historia and encyclopedia

 

[Dust_Collector]

If that's the actual translation and the guides mention nothing of him actually creating the realm then yeah it should be removed from his justifications, would also remove his Pocket Reality Manipulation.

Although personally I wouldn't call this even a minor downgrade since it doesn't affect his tiering.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, I have seen quite a few threads mentioning this before, but forgot what some other counter arguments where. But anyway, this wouldn't really effect the tier but neutral regarding the feat in the long run.

 

[Cyberblader90]

bump

 

[Dust_Collector]

Ok so actually this might be more than just a minor downgrade, it seems like the 4-A rating for Vaati doesn't meet the requirements for being legit based on the creation feats page so without Demise actually creating this dimension we might need a new low end to replace 4-A.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh really? Didn't we have a long discussion about that? Or we can just stick to the Universal stuff from Wind Fish.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Oh really? Didn't we have a long discussion about that? Or we can just stick to the Universal stuff from Wind Fish.

We didn't really have a long discussion about it, we all just saw stars appear when Vaati shows up and were like "Yeah he made a dimension", but uh, turns out that's not how our standards work.

"There should be evidence or a well detailed explanation that a pocket dimension was created, and not simply an illusion or teleportation to another location."
-Creation Feats page

Unfortunately we don't seem to have any evidence or explanations that Vaati actually made a pocket dimension as opposed to just teleporting himself and Link into another dimension.

I'd be fine with just getting rid of the low end altogether and just making everyone 3-A to Low 2-C like the Wind Fish.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I mean, it was rejected for so long, and we only recently accepted it as a valid feat; that's what I meant by long discussion. Though I should have made "discussions" plural to avoid confusion.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Ah that's you meant. Yeah it took multiple discussions and several years for it to be seen as legit (I first brought it up in 2017 iirc), but until recently we just treated it as an outlier for him until we found out he absorbed most of Hylias power and scaled to her. But alas, it would seem it was never even a feat to begin with according to the sites standards.

 

[Cyberblader90]

bump

 

[Cyberblader90]

so we are removing the demise feat and vaati?

 

[Dust_Collector]

From the looks of it both feats should be removed, neither seem to meet our requirements for creation feats.

 

[Cyberblader90]

well does vaati count as sustaining? Im not sure i buy the backgrounds being actual stars, but if they are, it immediately disappears upon vaati's defeat

 

[Dust_Collector]

Unfortunately I don't think we can treat it as him sustaining it. Like I mentioned earlier, the requirements from our creation feats page states,

"There should be evidence or a well detailed explanation that a pocket dimension was created, and not simply an illusion or teleportation to another location."

We'd have to find explict proof Vaati even created anything in the first place and wasn't casting some illusion or teleporting himself and Link to another place that already exists, without that proof we can't really say Vaati was sustaining anything besides maybe an illusion.

 

[Cyberblader90]

fair enough

 

[Dust_Collector]

Bump

So if this goes through and we also get rid of the 4-A stuff, what would we put as the new low end? Ganondorf with the Triforce of Power has a 5-A feat so we can use that for him and anyone who scales to him, but for characters like Demise and Vaati I don't think we have anything better than High 6-A for their low ends.

 

[Cyberblader90]

bump

 

[Cyberblader90]

Bump

 

[Dust_Collector]

Bumping this in honour of todays Death Battle.

 

[Cyberblader90]

bump

 

[Cyberblader90]

Unfortunately I don't think we can treat it as him sustaining it. Like I mentioned earlier, the requirements from our creation feats page states,



We'd have to find explict proof Vaati even created anything in the first place and wasn't casting some illusion or teleporting himself and Link to another place that already exists, without that proof we can't really say Vaati was sustaining anything besides maybe an illusion.

hmm
Vaati says "let me show you the true power of the light force" and then the dimension is shown

and we see the exact same dimension in four sword when fighting him

 

[Dust_Collector]

That could maybe make it a legit feat but I dunno.

 

[Cyberblader90]

maybe like a "possibly tier"?

 

[Dust_Collector]

yeah that could work

 

[Cyberblader90]

bump

 

[Dust_Collector]

Man, Zelda threads just never get any noticeable attention huh?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

They used to get a lot more, but a lot of staff members interested in Zelda have pretty much left via burnout and other similar things.

 

[Dust_Collector]

What if we use clickbait to trick people into thinking this is a Mario thread, those get attention.

Yeah it's a shame not many staff are around for these threads, but it's hard to avoid burnout for this type of stuff so it's understandable why.

 

[SamanPatou]

I totally avoid Mario and Zelda threads because I disagree with the ratings and there's no way I could ever succeed in changing them and some of their policies, so I just gave up.

But one of my issues have always been these two feats (Demise and Vaati's) being too vague and not confirmed as actual creation, so I'm totally in for removing them, even considering the new evidence from the Demise japanese stuff.

I'm still iffy on Vaati having a possibly, the "Let me show you the true power of the light force" can just be him announcing that he's going to kill Link with that power.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I totally avoid Mario and Zelda threads because I disagree with the ratings and there's no way I could ever succeed in changing them and some of their policies, so I just gave up.

But one of my issues have always been these two feats (Demise and Vaati's) being too vague and not confirmed as actual creation, so I'm totally in for removing them, even considering the new evidence from the Demise japanese stuff.

I'm still iffy on Vaati having a possibly, the "Let me show you the true power of the light force" can just be him announcing that he's going to kill Link with that power.

More so the possibly is the weird transition from that line, which than brings about the background change. Granted, we have 0 sources saying the lights in the background are actual stars.

 

[Dust_Collector]

So what would the new low end be for these characters if we toss Demise and Vaatis feats to the wind. I know Ganondorf and anyone who scales to him can be 5-B from his Wind Waker feat (Although what Ganon did in Wind Waker could be argued as just time manipulation), but besides that Demise and Vaati could have their low ends replaced with High 6-A via upscaling from Levias, same could go for the stronger characters like Ganondorf if his endless night isn't accepted as planet stopping.

 

[Cyberblader90]

do we currently accept endless night on site?

 

[Dust_Collector]

I have no idea if we accept it or not. I know we used the feat at some point, but at the moment no idea what the sites current stance on the endless night is.

 

[SamanPatou]

I personally wouldn't accept it, tbh, but I don't want to make it look like I'm pushing for verse-wide downgrades now.

Also, Levia's calc is quite old, hosted on Narutoforums and I think some calc rules and policies on storms and whatever have changed on the wiki over the years, so I think it would be better to import the calc on a wiki blog and have it evaluated, and remade if calc members deem it wrong.

 

[Cyberblader90]

checking on endless night, that feat in my eyes should only be accepted as a possibly only. Personally i dont buy it all