Why not? Sailor Moon Tier One: The Last Time

[Iamunanimousinthat]

That's fine. But it would still be fair for him to actually acknowledge the change in argument, as well as respond to my rebuttal. Especially when one of his arguments was that the Tau Star system was not a spacetime, and did not respond when i pointed out that he literally gave a scan that called it a spacetime and also ignored all the other scans that referred to it as an alternate dimension.

Otherwise it becomes just a one sided debate followed by populism.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

That's fine. But it would still be fair for him to actually acknowledge the change in argument, as well as respond to my rebuttal. Especially when one of his arguments was that the Tau Star system was not a spacetime, and did not respond when i pointed out that he literally gave a scan that called it a spacetime and also ignored all the other scans that referred to it as an alternate dimension.

Otherwise it becomes just a one sided debate followed by populism.

My mind hasn’t really changed. I’d initially planned on writing a comprehensive response addressing every premise point-by-point, but I decided against it to avoid unnecessary drama.

 

[Lonkitt]

Otherwise it becomes just a one sided debate followed by populism.

These are issues you have with ProfectusInfinity, not with me. I was not encouraging populism (nor was anyone here really)

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

These are issues you have with ProfectusInfinity, not with me. I was not encouraging populism (nor was anyone here really)

I did not accuse you or anyone of populism. Apologies if that's how it came across I was making a general comment that the point of these things is to have a healthy debate. If rebuttals go unanswered then it defeats the purpose of debate. Of course, after enough back and forths, people will have to agree to disagree and then everyone can choose their like, but I don't think the argument has reached that point here.

My mind hasn’t really changed. I’d initially planned on writing a comprehensive response addressing every premise point-by-point, but I decided against it to avoid unnecessary drama.

You don't have to do anything. But it would be helpful for the debate to acknowledge your point was wrong about the Tau Star System. If others are going to agree with your points, it helps for them to separate the valid ones from the ones that aren't.

 

[Qawsedf234]

For the corridor to allow people to time travel it must have an access point to every moment in time. That is an uncountably infinite amount of access points.
The corridor also acts like a standard multiverse because it embeds all the universes. In order for the corridor to do both at the same time, all of time must be embedded within it.

No, it just has access to the full timestream, but that doesn't require it to embed or transcend anything.

The shockwaves and sending the keys aren't time alternations abilities. But if I were to humor your point, it would be on my side:

It wouldn't, because it just meant she would react first or faster, which doesn't require a second time dimension.

A standard multiverse would only contain the a singular snapshot of the present states of each universe in each of its snapshots such as this:

The Door is just the second image. It is the universe snapshot along the standard 4th-dimensional time axis, not the last fourth image.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

No, it just has access to the full timestream, but that doesn't require it to embed or transcend anything.

This isn't an argument for whether it requires it or not. It does embed it and the story shows so.

It wouldn't, because it just meant she would react first or faster, which doesn't require a second time dimension.

This doesn't make sense. Sailor Pluto is outside time. She cannot be first or faster than something inside of time. Also, I am not arguing for a second time dimension.

The Door is just the second image. It is the universe snapshot along the standard 4th-dimensional time axis, not the last fourth image.

This also makes no sense. For the door to be the second image and for the characters to travel to the past, they would first need to travel to the past of the corridor to access the past of the universes. In the second image, the corridor would only have the present states within it. It cannot be used for time travel if that was the case.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Actually forget what I said for the second point. I have a different argument. A better one. What I said up there is wrong.

 

[Qawsedf234]

This isn't an argument for whether it requires it or not. It does embed it and the story shows so.

I'm not seeing it embedding anything.

This also makes no sense. For the door to be the second image and for the characters to travel to the past, they would first need to travel to the past of the corridor to access the past of the universes. In the second image, the corridor would only have the present states within it. It cannot be used for time travel if that was the case.

The door just needs to connect to the timestream. It doesn't need to take uncountable infinite snapshots of a 4D timeline to do so.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The door just needs to connect to the timestream. It doesn't need to take uncountable infinite snapshots of a 4D timeline to do so.

I'm not seeing it embedding anything.

Context: The corridor has many names as is referred to as a spacetime, rift, and underworld.

Tau Star System is an alternate dimension that is stated to be a region in spacetime. Saturn refers to the wormhole to the Tau Star System as the corridor and Sailor Pluto uses the spacetime door to seal the Tau Star System away.

Chibi-usa says the past is on the other side of the spacetime. (note: chibiusa is in the future, and sailor moon is in the past)

Wiseman's domain is at the edge of spacetime. (Here's another scan where wiseman is in his domain and calls corridor the rift)

When the cast uses the key, they time travel to Sailor Pluto. This is described as opening a route through spacetime. If the universes and times weren't embedded inside the corridor, it would a route to spacetime. Just as a route to the jungle, the route is not in the jungle, but a route through the jungle, the route is inside the jungle.

When Luna and Artemis are checking to see if there are any invaders from alternate dimensions, Pluto confirms there are no invaders because there has been no disturbance in space time. Meaning the routes to alternate dimensions disturb spacetime, as previously established that routes are through spacetime themselves.

So in conclusion:

Alternate dimensions like the Tau Star System are regions in corridor, and beings can use routes that go through corridor to reach other dimensions.
Periods in the time exist inside the corridor and beings can use routes that go through corridor to reach other periods in time.

SO if you take a single snapshot of corridor, inside that snapshot you would include all the alternate dimensions and the routes between them and all periods of time and routes between them.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Also, I would like to add:

When the cast uses the time key, it directly said that they will travel through time to reach Sailor Pluto from any point in time and space. Sailor Pluto doesn't exist inside the timeline of any universe. She exists outside of time.

If we to graph time and space of the universe on the graph as such (ignore the A and B, i didn't make this):



In order to reach Sailor Pluto, you would need to travel through time on an axis that does not exist on that graph. That time axis would have to be perpendicular to the time axis of the universe.

This is enough evidence. Full stop. You cannot deny this without using false logic. Geometrically speaking, it is impossible to travel from one point on a plane to another point on a different plane without a perpendicular direction.

There is literally no way to travel to Sailor Pluto without using a perpendicular axis of time. Especially when the series says that exists in layers, giving evidence that there isn't only one dimension of time.

 

[FeebasExE]

Disagree for staff reasons.

If the author really meant for tier 1 you wouldn't need to resort to mental gymnastics, using imaginary graphs to justify the tier.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

If the author really meant for tier 1 you wouldn't need to resort to mental gymnastics, using imaginary graphs to justify the tier.

author intention is a faulty argument, imo

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Disagree for staff reasons.

If the author really meant for tier 1 you wouldn't need to resort to mental gymnastics, using imaginary graphs to justify the tier.

That's a silly argument. No author intends for tier 1.

The standards are are all literally mental gymnastics.

And using imaginary graphs is the basics of logic. Do you actually have an agrument?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Let's not derail this. I want to actually have this debate. Especially for what I said here:

Also, I would like to add:

When the cast uses the time key, it directly said that they will travel through time to reach Sailor Pluto from any point in time and space. Sailor Pluto doesn't exist inside the timeline of any universe. She exists outside of time.

If we to graph time and space of the universe on the graph as such (ignore the A and B, i didn't make this):



In order to reach Sailor Pluto, you would need to travel through time on an axis that does not exist on that graph. That time axis would have to be perpendicular to the time axis of the universe.

This is enough evidence. Full stop. You cannot deny this without using false logic. There is literally no way to travel to Sailor Pluto without using a perpendicular axis of time.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Also, I would like to add:

When the cast uses the time key, it directly said that they will travel through time to reach Sailor Pluto from any point in time and space. Sailor Pluto doesn't exist inside the timeline of any universe. She exists outside of time.

If we to graph time and space of the universe on the graph as such (ignore the A and B, i didn't make this):



In order to reach Sailor Pluto, you would need to travel through time on an axis that does not exist on that graph. That time axis would have to be perpendicular to the time axis of the universe.

This is enough evidence. Full stop. You cannot deny this without using false logic. There is literally no way to travel to Sailor Pluto without using a perpendicular axis of time.

I agree with the OP for this reason. I think this is pretty damning evidence. (im not a shoujo reader to begin with, this is just my perspective as an outsider, take it with some salt.)

 

[Planck69]

Disagree for staff reasons.

If the author really meant for tier 1 you wouldn't need to resort to mental gymnastics, using imaginary graphs to justify the tier.

We don't base our scaling on author intent but rather what evidence can be offered be it feats, statements or explicit Word of God that can be corroborated in-verse. So please stop talking about "presentation", "author intent" etc. as though you're subjective view of "this is how it should be/how author thinks it should be" is of any account. If you can't do that then this isn't the place for you.

Disagree based on other reasons whatever, not this nonsensical mix of authority appeal and incredulity.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

If this thread gets rejected I will like a very specific explanation on how it is possible for characters to time travel to sailor pluto who exists outside of the universe's time without a perpendicular time axis. Because this is a basic foundation of geometry. You cannot travel to a point outside a plane without a perpendicular axis.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Some people are getting triggered because it hits too close to home.

Not surprised. It's the God of War fans and their tier 1 Kratos

Since you have time to derail, can you answer my question:

If this thread gets rejected I will like a very specific explanation on how it is possible for characters to time travel to sailor pluto who exists outside of the universe's time without a perpendicular time axis. Because this is a basic foundation of geometry. You cannot travel to a point outside a plane without a perpendicular axis.

 

[Planck69]

@FeebasExE
That nonsensical jab aside, you've yet to actually go into why this specifically doesn't qualify beyond a vague talk of standards and author intent. So keep the derail to a minimum if you can't actually contribute as to why this does or doesn't qualify.

@Tanin_iver @SYPHe5D
No point in continuing that line of discussion.

@Iamunanimousinthat
Do you have a tally of the current staff votes here?

 

[FeebasExE]

I don’t think

You confirmed my suspicion about you

 

[SYPHe5D]

You confirmed my suspicion about you

whatever makes you sleep well at night Sherlock.

 

[FeebasExE]

@FeebasExE
That nonsensical jab aside, you've yet to actually go into why this specifically doesn't qualify beyond a vague talk of standards and author intent. So keep the derail to a minimum if you can't actually contribute as to why this does or doesn't qualify.

I disagree based off staff assessment.

Why should I repeat what they've already said.

Please just move on. You're not helping this thread

 

[Planck69]

@FeebasExE

Alright, that's enough from you. I could care less about whatever idea you have of the site's ratings but the smarminess is uncalled for. Consider this an official warning.

 

[ImmortalDread]

@Planck69 Three staff members, namely @Lonkitt, @Qawsedf234, and @Deagonx, have expressed disagreement with the thread. As of now, no approval/neutrality has been received from any staff members.

If I have misunderstood someone's position, I apologize and would appreciate it if this could be acknowledged.

 

[Planck69]

@Planck69 Three staff members, namely @Lonkitt, @Qawsedf234, and @Deagonx, have expressed disagreement with the thread. As of now, no approval has been received from any staff members.

Unless discussion is ongoing with any of them then this seems to have been rejected.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

@Iamunanimousinthat
Do you have a tally of the current staff votes here?

Agree​

N/A

Neutral​

GarrixianXD​

Disagree​

Deagonx​

Qawsedf234​

Lonkitt​

Planck69​

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I am also waiting for Qawsed, also it would be appreciative if staff could answer my question here:

Also, I would like to add:

When the cast uses the time key, it directly said that they will travel through time to reach Sailor Pluto from any point in time and space. Sailor Pluto doesn't exist inside the timeline of any universe. She exists outside of time.

If we to graph time and space of the universe on the graph as such (ignore the A and B, i didn't make this):



In order to reach Sailor Pluto, you would need to travel through time on an axis that does not exist on that graph. That time axis would have to be perpendicular to the time axis of the universe.

This is enough evidence. Full stop. You cannot deny this without using false logic. There is literally no way to travel to Sailor Pluto without using a perpendicular axis of time.

 

[FeebasExE]

@FeebasExE

Alright, that's enough from you. I could care less about whatever idea you have of the site's ratings but the smarminess is uncalled for. Consider this an official warning.

Ok

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

ALso can we please delete the derailing comments. It will clutter this up.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

All right, it's good to see that everyone's chilled out. We should maybe leave this open for Qawsedf to provide a final response to the OP.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Unless discussion is ongoing with any of them then this seems to have been rejected.

Yes, I too endorse the decision. Unless the OP introduces new information to the discussion, particularly any additional evidence from the verse, I believe this proposal won't gain approval. Additionally, I apologize for not recognizing your standpoint earlier. It appears there are four points of disagreement.

 

[ImmortalDread]

All right, it's good to see that everyone's chilled out. We should at least leave this open for Qawsedf to provide a final response to the OP.

I don't mind waiting for him, but I want to make it clear that he is under no obligation to respond. Additionally, even if he does, the approval rate is expected to be 1:3 unless other staff members also change their stance on Qawsedf's sudden shift in position, so it is still rejected.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Yes, I too endorse the decision. Unless the OP introduces new information to the discussion, particularly any additional evidence from the verse, I believe this proposal won't gain approval. Additionally, I apologize for not recognizing your standpoint earlier. It appears there are four points of disagreement.

I literally just asked this:

Also, I would like to add:

When the cast uses the time key, it directly said that they will travel through time to reach Sailor Pluto from any point in time and space. Sailor Pluto doesn't exist inside the timeline of any universe. She exists outside of time.

If we to graph time and space of the universe on the graph as such (ignore the A and B, i didn't make this):



In order to reach Sailor Pluto, you would need to travel through time on an axis that does not exist on that graph. That time axis would have to be perpendicular to the time axis of the universe.

This is enough evidence. Full stop. You cannot deny this without using false logic. There is literally no way to travel to Sailor Pluto without using a perpendicular axis of time.

And its very interesting that as soon as a brought up this point, the entire post started to get derailed, and people who hadn't commented before decided to grace their presence and now we are pushing for closure. Bad form and bad look.

 

[Planck69]

I've removed most of the conversation surrounding Feebas and author intent.

 

[ImmortalDread]

@Iamunanimousinthat

You did not contribute anything new to this post; instead, you provided an illustration summarizing your position. This wasn't the essence of my initial comment.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

@Iamunanimousinthat

You did not contribute anything new to this post; instead, you provided an illustration summarizing your position. This wasn't the essence of my initial comment.

Stop dodging the question. Can a staff member just answer the post or can we wait for a staff member who can?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I would also prefer if said point is clarified before closing this. Particularly to avoid another attempt in the future until new stuff is brought up.

 

[Lonkitt]

Unless discussion is ongoing with any of them then this seems to have been rejected.

I would agree that this thread’s proposals have been hard rejected. It’s four mods disagreeing with no mod agreement in response

 

[Qawsedf234]

When the cast uses the time key, it directly said that they will travel through time to reach Sailor Pluto from any point in time and space. Sailor Pluto doesn't exist inside the timeline of any universe. She exists outside of time.

Existing outside of time in a realm that predates time doesn't mean anything

It should also be noted that simply existing in some alternate state of existence that lacks time and/or space is not really grounds for any tier in particular, as lacking such things does not translate to being superior to them, and would most often overlap with abilities like Acausality or Nonexistent Physiology. A good example of a case like this is Dormammu (Marvel Cinematic Universe), who is stated to exist in a realm "far beyond time," yet never actually displays any superiority over it, and is in fact vulnerable to time-based abilities due to his timeless nature.

In addition sending something back in time before an Immeasurable attack hits them is evidence of the character doing it first or just having greater levels of Immeasurable speed rather than two independent time axis.

In order to reach Sailor Pluto, you would need to travel through time on an axis that does not exist on that graph.

To reach Salior Pluto you just need to have dimensional travel since time travel has never been established as a means to reach her.

In fact if it was then you have greater issues since the only mention of time is the 30th century which is an actual thing.

This is enough evidence. Full stop. You cannot deny this without using false logic.

I think you're just fundamentally misunderstanding the requirements for a snapshot of a time axis. Just looking at the past or being able to axis the timestream isn't evidence of an independent time axis.

 

[Qawsedf234]

And its very interesting that as soon as a brought up this point, the entire post started to get derailed, and people who hadn't commented before decided to grace their presence and now we are pushing for closure. Bad form and bad look.

The closure stuff would happen regardless because the rejection threshold was reached.