Why don't we accept SCP Aleph hierarchy (5800 and acidverse)?

[Rikimarox2]

Pretty much the title. Hopefully the SCP knowledgeable dudes could tell my why.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Bumpo

 

[Livinmeme]

Real question how OP is it?

 

[Rikimarox2]

Shit like The Scarlet King would be iirc, 1-A+

The current scarlet king is rated Low 1-C.

Of course, that is only mentioning one characters. Others will be affected, as well.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Real question how OP is it?

High 1-A to the ones in the level of Scarlet King, layers into boundless to the ones above him

 

[Rikimarox2]

High 1-A to the ones in the level of Scarlet King, layers into boundless to the ones above him

I thought 1-A+? Why would it be High 1-A?

 

[Delta333]

I don't know much about SCP but you can ask @Rabbit2002 cus he also told me Scarlet King is legimately High 1-A

 

[Rikimarox2]

IIRC, he supports it. I just wanna know why the wiki doesn't accept. I recall one of the arguments being is that its contradictory.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Why would it be High 1-A?

idk, some scalers said it, most of SCP scalers does says it actually

 

[Rikimarox2]

idk, some scalers said it, most of SCP scalers does says it actually

Most of the scalers I have seen put them at either 1-A+, or just low 1-C.

 

[Tau]

How far into High 1-A would Daddy Khahrahk even be?

 

[Tau]

Also, I think TSK being higher than High 1-B or 1-A would pose problems since we'd possibly have to heavily upgrade the high tier SCP's like 2747, and 3812 and we'd end up with a mini suggsverse.


Not that'd even I care though, Daddy Khahrahk deserves infinitely into tier 0 tbh

 

[Livinmeme]

Having some tier High 1-A doesnt matter as a WOD have alot of characters with High 1-A to 0 haxs and CM have infinites Tier 0 so...

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Having some tier High 1-A doesnt matter as a WOD have alot of characters with High 1-A to 0 haxs and CM have infinites Tier 0 so...

It doesn't matter how other verses are rated, it should only matter if SCP is rated accurately here (Within this sites standards ofc).

Also, I think TSK being higher than High 1-B or 1-A would pose problems since we'd possibly have to heavily upgrade the high tier SCP's like 2747, and 3812 and we'd end up with a mini suggsverse.


Not that'd even I care though, Daddy Khahrahk deserves infinitely into tier 0 tbh

Most SCP scalers off-site (That I'm aware off) already rate SCP = Suggs or SCP > Suggs like most folks that give a totally unbias ratings to their favourite verses, in other words CAP!

Either way SCP is in desperate need of revisions but I doubt (along with the original topic of this thread) it'll happen anytime soon (At least not any major revisions).

 

[Livinmeme]

It doesn't matter how other verses are rated, it should only matter if SCP is rated accurately here (Within this sites standards ofc).

I was refering that SCP isnt nearly as suggs as other verses but okay....

 

[Rabbit2002]

I spoke to Agnaa months ago about this, he said that this was due to the conflicting Alephs (in the case of SCP-5800, 5d stuff) and does not apply to cosmology in the case of Acidverse

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

We do accept it as it is described, it's just that 1: alephs were toned down somewhat with how they related to tiering around the same time people noticed 5800 and 2: even if the prior never happened we have no reason to assume that the higher-end infinities are being included. Additionally, the whole description scales to very few people, being seen as more a description of the entire cosmology than anything specific, and it's a pretty clear theme that "there's always something else out there" going on in stories where "everything" is destroyed.

Simply put, we do accept it, just not in the way you and some others appear to want.

 

[Rabbit2002]

We do accept it as it is described, it's just that 1: alephs were toned down somewhat with how they related to tiering around the same time people noticed 5800 and 2: even if the prior never happened we have no reason to assume that the higher-end infinities are being included. Additionally, the whole description scales to very few people, being seen as more a description of the entire cosmology than anything specific, and it's a pretty clear theme that "there's always something else out there" going on in stories where "everything" is destroyed.

Simply put, we do accept it, just not in the way you and some others appear to want.

Well Aleph context from SCP-5800 is Part of Noosphere (or Infosphere) which is part of each one universe in Multiverse (Each universe have their own Infosphere/Idealtic Space And Infinite-dimensional physic universe/space. Confirm by Qntmm/Author of 3125/"There is No Antimemetic division" and SCP-6820 as well its Author/Placeholder)

 

[Agnaa]

SCP-5800

Weird and arguable. The place that supposedly contains all those alephs is described as "The Fifth Dimension". If you want to argue it's using "dimension" to mean "universe/realm", it has a 5-manifold as its entrance, an actual geometric construct.

There's some other weirdness with consistency. SCP-3125 has a theta-prime fractal topology, referring to a whole number between 5 and 6. If we take SCP-5800 as meaning that it contains shittons of alephs, then 3125 would be the second-weakest being in the noosphere, which sounds kind of inconsistent. Nothing else being remotely that high despite many descriptions also makes it harder to stomach.

It also becomes weird when you actually try to imagine how it functions as an ecology. It describes each aleph as having its own being, while also saying that those beings can eat other beings to grow their aleph-ness. This is strange in multiple ways, first that aleph-3 eating aleph-2 should increase its size by effectively 0, it should not bump it up to aleph-4. And if it were to get bumped up to aleph-4, that would contradict there only being one being for each aleph.

You can kinda get around that by disregarding that part, but then we don't know how many alephs actually exist there. Maybe there's just aleph-0 and aleph-1 and there's no upgrade to be had. But then you could argue that it has the potential to contain any higher alephs, but that also gets pretty speculative.

I'd argue that it's also arguable whether the idea of a number such as aleph-5 in a realm of ideas would actually have a literal size of aleph-5, idk how justified that jump is, iirc the article itself has some stuff supporting it and some stuff going against it.

tl;dr it's hard to make it work and discussion about using it eventually died out.

acidverse

We already use that. That is literally the justification for all the 1-A SCP profiles we have.

The reason we rate that statement at Low 1-A (and therefore, transcendence of it at 1-A) based on the uncountable dimensions part and not the aleph numbers part, is because the world isn't described as having size corresponding to alephs. It's described as having uncountably infinite expanses in uncountably infinite dimensions. Alephs are brought up as a point of comparison, to show how the infinite can be reduced to something simpler. It doesn't say the world has a size of, say aleph-2.

which is part of each one universe in Multiverse (Each universe have their own Infosphere/Idealtic Space And Infinite-dimensional physic universe/space. Confirm by Qntmm

This seems wrong from what I've read. There's far more stuff establishing there being one noosphere across the multiverse. We'd take actual information in multiple tales over one author's statement any day.

 

[Rabbit2002]

This seems wrong from what I've read. There's far more stuff establishing there being one noosphere across the multiverse. We'd take actual information in multiple tales over one author's statement any day.

What are the sources that claim to have only 1 Infosphere/Nooshpere for the entire Multiverse?

 

[Rabbit2002]

Qntmm and Placeholder are literally the people who write about Noosphere/Infosphere the most, in fact the former was the inspiration for it to be included in the SCP Verse (SCP-2111)

 

[Rabbit2002]

Also, Entities from the Noosphere/Infosphere can affect the Multiverse/omniverse as a whole which does not mean that there is only 1 Noosphere/Infosphere for them (Qntmm and Placeholder also note/write them, as SCP-6820/3125/The Core-Eye,...)

 

[Agnaa]

What are the sources that claim to have only 1 Infosphere/Nooshpere for the entire Multiverse?

The tale that scales SK to the noosphere is one I remember off the top of my head. I'm not interesting in SCP anymore, so I don't want to read two dozen tales to find more backing against a random statement you made in a random thread.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Weird and arguable. The place that supposedly contains all those alephs is described as "The Fifth Dimension". If you want to argue it's using "dimension" to mean "universe/realm", it has a 5-manifold as its entrance, an actual geometric construct.

There's some other weirdness with consistency. SCP-3125 has a theta-prime fractal topology, referring to a whole number between 5 and 6. If we take SCP-5800 as meaning that it contains shittons of alephs, then 3125 would be the second-weakest being in the noosphere, which sounds kind of inconsistent. Nothing else being remotely that high despite many descriptions also makes it harder to stomach.

I'm afraid you don't even know what the context of SCP-5800 is (yeah, months ago I was shocked that you hadn't even read SCP-5712 which is literally a prequel to SCP-5800, there is a cross-link between the two in both articles)

 

[Agnaa]

I haven't read it, other people who I discussed 5800 with had (one of them even co-authored it).

Shit on my credentials all you want because I'm the one of the few of 'em who decided to comment here, but that was discussed with Iapitus, Oven, Ultima, and Hl3, who have read 5712.

 

[Rabbit2002]

What are the sources that claim to have only 1 Infosphere/Nooshpere for the entire Multiverse?

The tale that scales SK to the noosphere is one I remember off the top of my head. I'm not interesting in SCP anymore, so I don't want to read two dozen tales to find more backing against a random statement you made in a random thread.

Okay, that's up to you. In fact, you can take my words for granted here (I don't really have too much of a problem with SCP's Tier either, so...)

 

[Darksmash]

SCP-3125 has a theta-prime fractal topology, referring to a whole number between 5 and 6. If we take SCP-5800 as meaning that it contains shittons of alephs, then 3125 would be the second-weakest being in the noosphere, which sounds kind of inconsistent.

Why would theta being a whole number between 5 and 6 make it the second weakest being? Interested in the thought process behind that conclusion since a whole number existing between two other whole numbers is already a weird notion.

It describes each aleph as having its own being, while also saying that those beings can eat other beings to grow their aleph-ness.

As far as I am aware it doesn't exactly say that. It says that they have hierarchies determined by their size and that said sizes are of uncountable infinities. It is possible that the ecological environment is limited to beings of the same aleph size(likely considering it gives an example of both the set of naturals and the set of integers, with the former being a subset of the latter). Also do we know how "eating" each other works for the ideas? It's possible that two ideas may combine to give something greater than the parts(like the set of all function from reals to reals has a higher cardinality than the reals while it's obtained only using two sets)

 

[Rabbit2002]

I haven't read it, other people who I discussed 5800 with had (one of them even co-authored it).

Shit on my credentials all you want because I'm the one of the few of 'em who decided to comment here, but that was discussed with Iapitus, Oven, Ultima, and Hl3, who have read 5712.

"Co-authored with it", so should it count in the first place? I mean if that article serves as Feat?

 

[Urshani]

i agree with agnaa

 

[Agnaa]

Why would theta being a whole number between 5 and 6 make it the second weakest being? Interested in the thought process behind that conclusion since a whole number existing between two other whole numbers is already a weird notion.

Because that's a size above aleph-0 but below aleph-1.

As far as I am aware it doesn't exactly say that. It says that they have hierarchies determined by their size and that said sizes are of uncountable infinities. It is possible that the ecological environment is limited to beings of the same aleph size(likely considering it gives an example of both the set of naturals and the set of integers, with the former being a subset of the latter).

If so, then we don't know how many alephs there are, making it dicier to scale.

Also do we know how "eating" each other works for the ideas? It's possible that two ideas may combine to give something greater than the parts(like the set of all function from reals to reals has a higher cardinality than the reals while it's obtained only using two sets)

That's all fine and dandy for ideas, but for them to receive a tier, they'd also need to literally, physically have those sizes.

I also think comparing eating to power sets is a bad comparison. The set of all functions from reals to reals isn't done with one copy of each. It's making a real number of copies of the set of the real numbers. It's not aleph-one plus aleph-one, not aleph-one times aleph-one, but aleph-one to the power of aleph-one. Eating is far better analogized to addition, in general. It'd be very strange if the ideas could get such a ludicrous amount of size out of so little.

"Co-authored with it", so should it count in the first place? I mean if that article serves as Feat?

Maybe not, we haven't really tested that out.

 

[Rabbit2002]

"Co-authored with it", so should it count in the first place? I mean if that article serves as Feat?

Maybe not, we haven't really tested that out.

Yeah, unless you realize that even Aleph is the weakest fodder in SCP-5800's Hierarchy which is completely dwarf and has devoured the very Concept of the "Mathematical Axis/Spatial Dimension" itself. And SCP-3125 is not really a part of SCP-5800, but literally its God and SCP-5800 as a whole only serves as its Key to interacting with reality, Lol It Even Transcends the Concept of Existence in General, even its own (It just Shadow of It lol), and Includes the Concept of Reality/Fantasy as a Whole (SCP-5800 has been declared to fall within the category of "Reality" in the same article). That Is What I want Said

Spoiler

O5-5: But God? God will cleanse this fetid world. This forsaken universe is a sin, and we will be born anew in God's glorious dazzling light. It's not a fantasy, Sean. It's not even a reality. It is so, so, so much more than that and beyond. It's an escape. And we have the KEY to bring it here.

Dr. Reemus: Key? Are you talking about SCP-5800?

O5-5: When you cut the arm off of a starfish, what happens?

Dr. Reemus: What? I don't… it grows back, right?

O5-5: You have to know, God's omnipresence expands above all the worlds in every universe. We thought we could keep it out by obliterating the very idea of God's existence, and it didn't even work! We tried to excise it from the very abyss in our heads. We tried so damn hard to cut it out. But like a starfish, it grew back. You can't stop it. God is here to bring us what we deserve.
Dr. Reemus: With all due respect, Overseer, you're insane.

O5-5: What, you thought we could just lock the DOOR and throw away the KEY? It was always there. We put God on the other side of the DOOR and pretended that everything was alright even though it wasn't. It never was. But we can still try to bring it here, Reemus. Deep down in the moist music and the- the orgasmic smoke of your heart's mind, you know that it's true. We already have the KEY, and we know what the DOOR is.

 

[Darksmash]

Because that's a size above aleph-0 but below aleph-1.

How? A whole number between 5 and 6 seems too niche of a concept to make any technical conclusions.

If so, then we don't know how many alephs there are, making it dicier to scale.

Well logically speaking since it's supposed to be the set of all thoughts that can be perceived saying it would have an arbitrary limit when it's system has been shown to contain both "aleph numbers" in general and also uncountably infinite sets sounds weird, but I can understand why you may consider that NLF.

That's all fine and dandy for ideas, but for them to receive a tier, they'd also need to literally, physically have those sizes.

I also think comparing eating to power sets is a bad comparison. The set of all functions from reals to reals isn't done with one copy of each. It's making a real number of copies of the set of the real numbers. It's not aleph-one plus aleph-one, not aleph-one times aleph-one, but aleph-one to the power of aleph-one. Eating is far better analogized to addition, in general. It'd be very strange if the ideas could get such a ludicrous amount of size out of so little.

I mean assuming ideas would work in that way is weirder. It's not like these ideas are stuff with physically defined boundries adding up to each other. They are rather defined as collections of various properties for example:

SCP-6820-A is an extremely dense thought; more specifically, it is a hate-centric hyper-logical memeplex that can be roughly described as "the difference between life and death." Even more specifically, SCP-6820-A is an extremely precise and accurate description of what it means for any arrangement of particles to be defined as "alive" and, complementarily, as "dead" or "inanimate". Its memeplex contains several smaller concepts within its description, including, but not limited to:

• a theoretical process for large-scale localized entropy inversion;
• the particular physical properties of hatred;
• the molecular structure of hydrochloric acid;
• the quality of 'adaptiveness;'
• the state of being 'vaguely-reptilian.'

I don't see why various properties always adding up have to obey the conventional idea of addition.

 

[Agnaa]

How? A whole number between 5 and 6 seems too niche of a concept to make any technical conclusions.

Not really, it functions as a whole number but has a size larger than 5 but smaller than 6. Mainfolds of order 5 and 6 are both larger in size than an aleph-0 number of points but smaller than aleph-1 number of points, so theta-prime would lie in the same camp.

I mean assuming ideas would work in that way is weirder. It's not like these ideas are stuff with physically defined boundries adding up to each other. They are rather defined as collections of various properties for example

I don't see why various properties always adding up have to obey the conventional idea of addition.

If they're "ideas" without physically defined boundaries, then I don't think we can say that the idea of "aleph-five" has a size of "an aleph-five number of points".

 

[Darksmash]

Not really, it functions as a whole number but has a size larger than 5 but smaller than 6. Mainfolds of order 5 and 6 are both larger in size than an aleph-0 number of points but smaller than aleph-1 number of points, so theta-prime would lie in the same camp.

That's a weird assumption considering whole numbers existing between other whole numbers isn't even a conventional idea. It's just some weird funky thing introduced by SCP.

If they're "ideas" without physically defined boundaries, then I don't think we can say that the idea of "aleph-five" has a size of "an aleph-five number of points".

Well they are still stated to have sizes of uncountable infinities. All it means is that the "addition" doesn't work by adding their sizes, bit rather adding their properties to create entirely new ideas.

 

[Agnaa]

That's a weird assumption considering whole numbers existing between other whole numbers isn't even a conventional idea. It's just some weird funky thing introduced by SCP.

We know how whole numbers work, and we know which numbers it is larger and smaller than. I really don't see how this is a stretch, it's been accepted this way for years and I haven't seen anyone challenge it on those grounds.

Well they are still stated to have sizes of uncountable infinities. All it means is that the "addition" doesn't work by adding their sizes, bit rather adding their properties to create entirely new ideas.

I don't understand how adding the property of "aleph-3" to an idea with the property of "aleph-4" would result in the property of "aleph-5" manifesting.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Can people stop talking about Theta-Prime, as quote from SCP-5800 itself, SCP-3125 is NOT PART of SCP-5800 lol, 5800 is nothing but its manifest and key let it interact with Reality

 

[Rabbit2002]

eating smaller concepts/Aleph only helps to increase its Fractal Topology, a word with almost no meaning or context behind. Why assume it is an Aleph increase?

SCP-5800 is host to living inconceivable abstract concepts that operate in Noospheric subspace similar to that of biotic components interacting with one another in a natural ecosystem. Most of these abstract concepts or entities are predatory in nature and aggressively envelop or dominate weaker ideatic concepts in order to increase in fractal topology

 

[Agnaa]

eating smaller concepts/Aleph only helps to increase its Fractal Topology, a word with almost no meaning or context behind. Why assume it is an Aleph increase?

Fair, but "it's an Aleph increase" is what the people who argued with me about it believed it to be.

 

[Darksmash]

We know how whole numbers work, and we know which numbers it is larger and smaller than. I really don't see how this is a stretch, it's been accepted this way for years and I haven't seen anyone challenge it on those grounds.

Whole numbers don't exist between two successive whole numbers by definition. Assuming this theta dimensional topology would have to obey those properties is super weird. If anything, this can be supportive evidence that dimensions in context of 5800 don't work like conventional ones.

I don't understand how adding the property of "aleph-3" to an idea with the property of "aleph-4" would result in the property of "aleph-5" manifesting.

The alephs just represent their sizes. The ideas themselves are presented in sets of infinities. Besides, the exact details aren't that relevant. We know that they are stated to have aleph numbers as their sizes, and we know that addition of two ideas doesn't conventionally work by merely adding their sizes but instead adds their properties. Hence the latter can explain away any contradictions you might have found in the former. Maybe they picked up a concept called "Set of all functions from set defined by property A to set defined by property B"?

 

[Agnaa]

Whole numbers don't exist between two successive whole numbers by definition. Assuming this theta dimensional topology would have to obey those properties is super weird. If anything, this can be supportive evidence that dimensions in context of 5800 don't work like conventional ones.

That feels like a bit of a stretch when there's a far simpler way to treat it.

The alephs just represent their sizes. The ideas themselves are presented in sets of infinities.

Alephs are sets of infinities, I thought those statements were both referring to the same thing.

Besides, the exact details aren't that relevant. We know that they are stated to have aleph numbers as their sizes, and we know that addition of two ideas doesn't conventionally work by merely adding their sizes but instead adds their properties. Hence the latter can explain away any contradictions you might have found in the former. Maybe they picked up a concept called "Set of all functions from set defined by property A to set defined by property B"?

Blech, that all sounds pretty funky.