Whitebeard vs Clefable

[Eminiteable]

Oda said in a SBS that if Rayleigh or Shanks used their conqueor's haki in that situation then they would have knocked out all 100,000 fishman, Whitebeard would scale to this.

 

[KingTempest]

While I agree, it's a great feat for Haki, said range/the feat doesn't seem to be listed on Whitebeard's profile, however, so it can be assumed it hasn't been accepted as valid to apply to his profile, & thus, it's questionable at best to use it in Versus Threads.
It should be brought up in a CRT for it to be added & applied.

Whitebeard's Conqueror's Haki can go to the clouds

I'll make a quick CRT to apply it though

Also, it was argued that it works better on animals than humans, but then argue that human intelligence doesn't matter? Feels a little strange.

It works much better on animals, but it still works on humans. Luffy, a super unexperienced user, knocked out hundreds of people with it.

I agree, it is a Wild Clefable. The point of those examples is they may set a precedent that Pokemon have the CAPACITY to demonstrate such things, & thus, the strongest version of a Wild Pokemon might be able to do such a thing.... If it does indeed, not require a bond with a trainer to achieve at all.

For the sake of comprehensiveness, I suppose I should also mention that there's also that Clefable has Magic Guard, an ability which is described as "The Pokémon only takes damage from attacks.". However, I'm unsure if it'd actually block Haki, since whether it's an attack or indirect source of "damage" or such. Again, mentioning it mostly for comprehensiveness. I don't put much stock in it in this match.

Haoshoku/Conqueror's Haki isn't damage, it's just messing w/ people via their wills.

 

[Imaginym]

Oda said in a SBS that if Rayleigh or Shanks used their conqueor's haki in that situation then they would have knocked out all 100,000 fishman, Whitebeard would scale to this.

Nice! But I'd still say it should be brought up in a Content Revision Board Thread, so that the proposed revision can be evaluated, possibly modified, & accepted, as the Knowledgeable Members see fit, before it can be applied. I don't disagree with the feat, but I still place importance on maintaining proper process.

(Also, quantity affected doesn't necessarily mean it's more effective on an individual; An explosion's blast wave will hit an individual with the same general amount of force, even if other people get hit by other areas of the blast wave. Also, how many people it can affect doesn't necessarily change the range. Could you draw a straight line 20 kilometers long among the people knocked out by it?)

Yeah I agree with you on the timid pokedex entry thing because pokedex is kind of stupid sometimes and your interpretation makes more sense. But the intelligence doesn't matter because animals tend to have weaker wills than humans and supreme king haki has been shown working against really tough and strong people who are pirates or renowned. Supreme king haki also has supernatural powers like it isn't just some aura, it's been shown to effect and break wood and lift bodies off the floor and even create a lot of wind. I think this has to do with the power of it and whitebeard should posses the highest grade of this haki. But the best argument here is that, POKEMON YIELD TO CHILDREN AFTER BEING CAPTURED. This makes them act pretty much like slaves for life to trainers who are weaker than them. This isn't exclusive to just weak pokemon but also legendaries whom are the strongest kinds of pokemon. IMO conquerors haki should effect clefable and knock it out or at the very least intimidate it completely.

I'd say it means it's timid in general, but not specifically scared of them, period. Hating the sounds of ambulance sirens doesn't mean you're scared of them, but you'd still get startled if you saw one suddenly go by your house when none normally go near.
(Also, a good few people on our site, if my memory serves, don't think highly of generally dismissing the Pokedex, due to evidence in support of its use, & it being one of the main sources of lore. Though, we understand scrutinizing it when it screws up.)

Anyway, one 'verse's animals are not necessarily like another's animals, & Pokemon are especially not like One Piece animals.
Which "tough or strong people" did Conqueror's Haki work on, & what were their feats of willpower? Being a pirate or renowned doesn't necessarily mean your will is stronger. You might just be greedy, stupid, longing for adventure, confident in your strength.... There's a lot of reasons to be a pirate.

I don't understand the relevance of bringing up Environmental Destruction effects of Conqueror's Haki.

"POKEMON YIELD TO CHILDREN AFTER BEING CAPTURED"

We're actually given explanation for that: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Sinnoh_myths

Long ago, when Sinnoh had just been made, Pokémon and humans led separate lives.That is not to say they did not help each other. No, indeed they did.They supplied each other with goods, and supported each other.A Pokémon proposed to the others to always be ready to help humans.It asked that Pokémon be ready to appear before humans always.Thus, to this day, Pokémon appear to us if we venture into tall grass.

This gives us a strong implication that wild Pokemon are those seeking to "help" us. & there have been instances of Pokemon defying trainers.
Even with the anime aside, in the games, Pokemon flat out disobey you if they're too high level, & you don't have enough badges, because they don't respect you.

Not to mention, in practically every game, the protagonist is noted as exceptionally skilled, very able to bond with Pokemon, & charismatic; Several Legendary Pokemon in the stories of games choose to battle or even go with the trainer explicitly because of respect or interest in them.

As well as the fact that Poke Balls provide comfortable environments, & bonding & battling alongside a trainer is noted in-universe, often, as a means for a Pokemon to become stronger, & we often see Pokemon in the anime choosing to go with a trainer, & often, co-operating, BEFORE being caught.


Very often, when a Pokemon is captured by a trainer, it's because they respect that trainer, who proved themself, capable in battle or otherwise.
So very often, a Pokemon obeying a trainer isn't a matter of a Pokemon giving up, acting as a doormat & taking orders, because the trainer caught it in a ball, but usually because they respect it. & when they don't, they're capable of defiance.
Not to mention, there are Pokemon that are noted in the Pokedex as difficult to train because of their behaviour. While Clefable isn't one of those, I'd say it's not really an accurate generalization to claim all Pokemon just spinelessly yield.

Whitebeard's Conqueror's Haki can go to the clouds

I'll make a quick CRT to apply it though

Much appreciated. (Though, often clouds aren't that high up. Elevation depends on cloud type, so this may not reach tens of KM, if you're concerned with that.)

It works much better on animals, but it still works on humans. Luffy, a super unexperienced user, knocked out hundreds of people with it.

IIRC, isn't Luffy noted to have exceptional Haki, even prior to his training in it? (Plus, he inherited the Will of D., didn't he?)

Haoshoku/Conqueror's Haki isn't damage, it's just messing w/ people via their wills.

So, I feel that there may be some confusion, in part on my part, since I feel the part of concern is the criteria by which it affects.
I wouldn't be entirely opposed to trying to restate some of what I feel might be relevant points from this post, if you feel it would be good & help the flow of the debate.

 

[Eminiteable]

IIRC, isn't Luffy noted to have exceptional Haki, even prior to his training in it? (Plus, he inherited the Will of D., didn't he?)

No he was only only taught the basics by Rayleigh, will of d. Doesn't have anything to do with haki as far as we know.

 

[Imaginym]

No he was only only taught the basics by Rayleigh, will of d. Doesn't have anything to do with haki as far as we know.

I'd assume something Willpower related would be Haki related, but currently, that's just speculation.

 

[KingTempest]

Much appreciated. (Though, often clouds aren't that high up. Elevation depends on cloud type, so this may not reach tens of KM, if you're concerned with that.)

This makes sense, thanks!

IIRC, isn't Luffy noted to have exceptional Haki, even prior to his training in it? (Plus, he inherited the Will of D., didn't he?)

Everyone who has exceptional Haki has Conquerors Haki. Exceptional Haki usually refers to the other 2 shades (Observation and Armament, or the Spidey Sense and the enhancements). And tbh, his Conquerors isn't that special compared to the other users like Big Mom and Shanks.

Will of D. isn't Haki related, it's an unknown family thing which NEEDS to be elaborated on very soon (Which is why his name is Monkey D. Luffy)

So, Mind MaI feel that there may be some confusion, in part on my part, since I feel the part of concern is the criteria by which it affects.
I wouldn't be entirely opposed to trying to restate some of what I feel might be relevant points from this post, if you feel it would be good & help the flow of the debate.

Gotcha

 

[Imaginym]

Gotcha

Pardon my asking, please, but did you want me to restate those points, or would you rather look over yourself?

 

[KingTempest]

Pardon my asking, please, but did you want me to restate those points, or would you rather look over yourself?

It's alright, I'm rereading it

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Long ago, when Sinnoh had just been made, Pokémon and humans led separate lives.That is not to say they did not help each other. No, indeed they did.They supplied each other with goods, and supported each other.A Pokémon proposed to the others to always be ready to help humans.It asked that Pokémon be ready to appear before humans always.Thus, to this day, Pokémon appear to us if we venture into tall grass.

This gives us a strong implication that wild Pokemon are those seeking to "help" us. & there have been instances of Pokemon defying trainers.
Even with the anime aside, in the games, Pokemon flat out disobey you if they're too high level, & you don't have enough badges, because they don't respect you.

Not to mention, in practically every game, the protagonist is noted as exceptionally skilled, very able to bond with Pokemon, & charismatic; Several Legendary Pokemon in the stories of games choose to battle or even go with the trainer explicitly because of respect or interest in them.

As well as the fact that Poke Balls provide comfortable environments, & bonding & battling alongside a trainer is noted in-universe, often, as a means for a Pokemon to become stronger, & we often see Pokemon in the anime choosing to go with a trainer, & often, co-operating, BEFORE being caught.


Very often, when a Pokemon is captured by a trainer, it's because they respect that trainer, who proved themself, capable in battle or otherwise.
So very often, a Pokemon obeying a trainer isn't a matter of a Pokemon giving up, acting as a doormat & taking orders, because the trainer caught it in a ball, but usually because they respect it. & when they don't, they're capable of defiance.
Not to mention, there are Pokemon that are noted in the Pokedex as difficult to train because of their behaviour. While Clefable isn't one of those, I'd say it's not really an accurate generalization to claim all Pokemon just spinelessly yield.

Very good point, but wouldn't being physically more powerful than a pokemon qualify as being worthy of respect? Escpecially when there are pokemon who obey the orders of weaker trainers when their friendship stat is 0. Also Supreme king haki is described as belonging to those with the qualities of a king or those who are destined to rule. In the eyes of clefable, Whitebeard would be a human who is physically stronger than most pokemon and itself, has the quality of a king and is very intimidating and deserves respect. This is why I think supreme king haki would work against clefable, although I think it wouldn't work on ALL pokemon.

Anyway, one 'verse's animals are not necessarily like another's animals, & Pokemon are especially not like One Piece animals.
Which "tough or strong people" did Conqueror's Haki work on, & what were their feats of willpower? Being a pirate or renowned doesn't necessarily mean your will is stronger. You might just be greedy, stupid, longing for adventure, confident in your strength.... There's a lot of reasons to be a pirate.

Here I am comparing clefable to actual human beings who have superior intelligence to animals and these same humans have their will overpowered extremely easily by a supreme king haki user. Best example I can find is Don chingao and luffy who in their fight knocked out an entire block of fighters with just supreme king haki and that block was full of powerful fighters from around the new world (In which only the strongest can survive). Granted they were still fodder to luffy and chingao (luffy and chingao one shot two very powerful core members of the strawhat grand fleet by simply casting them aside because they were "in the way").

 

[Imaginym]

Very good point, but wouldn't being physically more powerful than a pokemon qualify as being worthy of respect? Escpecially when there are pokemon who obey the orders of weaker trainers when their friendship stat is 0. Also Supreme king haki is described as belonging to those with the qualities of a king or those who are destined to rule. In the eyes of clefable, Whitebeard would be a human who is physically stronger than most pokemon and itself, has the quality of a king and is very intimidating and deserves respect. This is why I think supreme king haki would work against clefable, although I think it wouldn't work on ALL pokemon.

Clefable doesn't necessary know Whitebeard is physically superior. Being stronger might make him worthy of respect, although there's other virtues. Not to mention, that per SBA, the characters are "in-character, but willing to kill". I can imagine it having respect for him, but it may not be a factor so early on in the battle, & there'd be more to it than strength.

Here I am comparing clefable to actual human beings who have superior intelligence to animals and these same humans have their will overpowered extremely easily by a supreme king haki user. Best example I can find is Don chingao and luffy who in their fight knocked out an entire block of fighters with just supreme king haki and that block was full of powerful fighters from around the new world (In which only the strongest can survive). Granted they were still fodder to luffy and chingao (luffy and chingao one shot two very powerful core members of the strawhat grand fleet by simply casting them aside because they were "in the way").

I appreciate that. But..... Quoting myself (Jn part, quoting someone else.):

1. "Well pokemon have strong wills, their will to live can make them regen life force and stuff."
2. Pokemon also often use Empathic Manipulation on one another, given many Status Moves, not to mention Disarming Voice, which does "emotional damage.". Zen Headbutt is a move described as focusing all of its Willpower into its head, so it's not entirely unheard of for Pokemon to involve such things in their attacks.
3. Affection dialogue implies Pokemon are capable of great feats of "determination".
"<Pokémon> healed its burn with its sheer determination so you wouldn't worry!"
"<Pokémon> melted the ice with its fiery determination so you wouldn't worry!"
"<Pokémon> gathered all its energy to break through its paralysis so you wouldn't worry!"
(Though we've only seen it done for trainers, that they can do it implies the capacity for such.)
4. Clefable has a claim somewhat supportive of it having good willpower. "They appear to be very protective of their own world. It is a kind of fairy, rarely seen by people." Being very protective of something seems willful to me.
5. Not to mention all that stuff about Pokemon being passionate for battle & all.

What claims to their strength of will could be made about the thousands of buff human pirates?

Though, as said, I can understand the idea of it working on a Pokemon, especially in Whitebeard's case, so let's look at another aspect of this.

"That would depend on if stats amping is clefables usual start move. (I don't think it is). And whitebeards starting move is to swing with the naginata or a quake punch which would one-shot clefable. And if clefable gets speed boost whitebeard also has AOE attacks and OBSERVATION HAKIIIIIII (Possibly future sight)."
It's claimed in this thread what Whitebeard's opening moves are, & they aren't claimed as being using Conqueror's Haki. Seems slightly odd to use it on a singular opponent.
(Also, Clefable isn't exactly like an animal in appearance, so much as a monster. It's bipedal, fleshy coloured, has wings, & close to the size of humans at some ages. It may be viewed as a monster, & I'm unsure how Whitebeard views those.)

AFAIK, Whitebeard is out of range of Clefable with the range ascribed to his quakes at their starting distance, or at least, out of range to hit with the direct effects. I'm sure Clefable wouldn't like the noise, but I'm not sure he can one-shot via Vibrating from that 4 KM range.
An issue for Whitebeard that comes up is Encore, which prolongedly forces the victim to repeat their last move. Besides it meaning potentially being locked into stuff like charges or swings or throws, there's also....

Copycat.
As mentioned, if Whitebeard were to use his quake punch, he could be out of range; Even if he were in range, the combatants are fast enough to exit the range very quickly. Clefable can use Copycat or Mimic, & as the profiles are, has greater range with most Attacks, than Whitebeard does with his quakes. Helpful is Whitebeard may likely be approaching if he intends on melee-ing.

So a possibility is that Whitebeard quake punches, Clefable is too far, Clefable uses Copycat as Whitebeard tries to get closer, & Whitebeard is hit with his own Durability Negation attack. (Also, doesn't he have heart issues that make said tremor powers problematic for him?)

 

[KingTempest]

As mentioned, if Whitebeard were to use his quake punch, he could be out of range; Even if he were in range, the combatants are fast enough to exit the range very quickly. Clefable can use Copycat or Mimic, & as the profiles are, has greater range with most Attacks, than Whitebeard does with his quakes. Helpful is Whitebeard may likely be approaching if he intends on melee-ing.

 

[Imaginym]

@ KingTempest : https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:KingTempest16/Marineford_Size_Calc
"Diameter of Marineford Bay: 1787.1046866292m"
"Diameter of Marineford: 3207.908412645m"

If the area of effect's diameter is the sum of the diameter of Marineford's own diameter, plus the diameter of Marineford's Bay, the total diameter of Marineford & its Bay (Using the values you calculated for them in that accepted calculation.) is only about 5 kilometers.

Clefable's profile lists its range as: "Standard melee range, tens of kilometers with most attacks."

So even using the size you calculated for Marineford, Clefable's range is still greater. Especially if it's MULTIPLE tens of KM.

Also, presumably, not every marine & pirate alike in the range of those tidal waves & shockwaves at Marineford suffered/died of internal organ damage when Whitebeard did that, so we can also presume that his Durability Negation won't actually hit/kill from just anywhere within that range, even if people might feel the quakes or see the waves.