Whitebeard vs Clefable

[Garchomp777]

Whitebeard vs Clefable

Speed is equal
Large mountain keys for whitebeard while clefable has all keys and abilities

Whitebeard: 1(KingTempest)
Clefable :

Incon:

 

[KingTempest]

Conquerors Haki gg

 

[ElixirBlue]

Conquerors Haki gg

What was the conclusion with the other thread? I heard it was questionable for it to work on comparable AP, since I remember it only working on fodder.

 

[KingTempest]

What was the conclusion with the other thread? I heard it was questionable for it to work on comparable AP, since I remember it only working on fodder.

I don't know who lied in that other thread, It's willpower based that is stronger on animals, and Clefable is a wild animal.

 

[Garchomp777]

I don't know who lied in that other thread, It's willpower based that is stronger on animals, and Clefable is a wild animal.

Do you really think clefable is just a random wild animal? Also what does it do

 

[KingTempest]

Do you really think clefable is just a random wild animal?

Works better on all animals, but wild animal is better.

Also what does it do

Haki

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Garchomp777]

Works better on all animals, but wild animal is better.

Haki

vsbattles.fandom.com

Well pokemon have strong wills, their will to live can make them regen life force and stuff. And clefairy has emotion based attacks that are in character as well + ranged sleep manipulation

 

[ElixirBlue]

Since the Pokémon anime is canon, no, Clefable can’t be considered a normal wild animal, since real animals exist in the Pokémon lore.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

White beard is much stronger so I think he has a clear advantage.

 

[Garchomp777]

White beard is much stronger so I think he has a clear advantage.

Clefairy seems to have more win cons though, its just about the first few moves they would use

 

[KingTempest]

Whitebeard has dura neg, AP stomp, Haoshoku haki, and a stupidly high pain tolerance plus precognition.

Since the Pokémon anime is canon, no, Clefable can’t be considered a normal wild animal, since real animals exist in the Pokémon lore.

Wild or not, it still works.

Heck, it works on people, and although Clefable isn't a wild animal, it's still an animal

 

[Garchomp777]

Whitebeard has dura neg, AP stomp, Haoshoku haki, and a stupidly high pain tolerance plus precognition.


Wild or not, it still works.

Heck, it works on people, and although Clefable isn't a wild animal, it's still an animal

What's its range? Also it seems like clefable has more win cons but Whitebeard has a more powerful ability

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Whitebeard has much higher AP and durability neg. Plus they are relatively equal in speed so whitebeard practically one-shots. I don't know how conqueror haki works but some dudes have very convincing arguments to how they should work.

 

[Chariot190]

Since the Pokémon anime is canon, no, Clefable can’t be considered a normal wild animal, since real animals exist in the Pokémon lore.

That's just early anime lore issues. Back when Pokemon was still being fleshed out, though it is true that originally, for the anime, Pokemon were meant to be a recent thing in the last 100 years that nearly wiped out all animals, that has LONG since been retconned.

Though Clefable very well shouldnt be considered a wild animal, it has a strong will and human like intellect, in some cases, even beyond human given the spaceships they can create.

 

[Garchomp777]

Whitebeard has much higher AP and durability neg. Plus they are relatively equal in speed so whitebeard practically one-shots. I don't know how conqueror haki works but some dudes have very convincing arguments to how they should work.

Yeah but what about the higher number of win cons for clefairy like stats amp

Clefable can amp itself to Large mountain since it can increase stats by 4x

Do you know Whitebeards joule output?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

White beard is possibly country because of the tsunami feat and he durability negs. And what are the starting moves for clefable? because it depends on who out speeds but I don't think clefable is very fast so whitebeard should get the first move and one shot.

 

[Garchomp777]

White beard is possibly country because of the tsunami feat and he durability negs. And what are the starting moves for clefable? because it depends on who out speeds but I don't think clefable is very fast so whitebeard should get the first move and one shot.

Speed is equal and the cap for this fight is large moutain keys only

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Well whitebeard is really high into large mountain his profile is at least large mountain likely higher and he scales above a lot of mountain+ and large mountain characters + Durability negation. He should easily have the AP advantage. What are clefables win cons?

 

[Eminiteable]

Whitebeard scales above Kaido who one-shot Luffy who's 1.13 Gigatons.

So his AP would be enough to oneshot + Durability negation.

 

[Garchomp777]

Whitebeard scales above Kaido who one-shot Luffy who's 1.13 Gigatons.

So his AP would be enough to oneshot + Durability negation.

But they start really far from each other via SBA + stats amping

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

That would depend on if stats amping is clefables usual start move. (I don't think it is). And whitebeards starting move is to swing with the naginata or a quake punch which would one-shot clefable. And if clefable gets speed boost whitebeard also has AOE attacks and OBSERVATION HAKIIIIIII (Possibly future sight).

 

[Imaginym]

But they start really far from each other via SBA + stats amping

Statistics Amplification doesn't necessarily help if it isn't a likely opening move, or if Clefable doesn't know it needs to use it.

Where are Whitebeard & Clefable in their respective scaling chains, with regards to what values they scale to?
Typically, a 7.5x difference is considered sufficient for a one-shot, & with Durability scaling to AP, would also mean Clefable possibly being unable to harm Whitebeard, given the potential difference. Dunno if statistics amplification would make a big enough difference.

Currently, between Whitebeard's statistical gap, Haki, skill & experience, I'd question if this would be fair even with Clefable bloodlusted & starting with max achievable stat boosts.

 

[Garchomp777]

Damn bro

So any explanation on how he gonna one shot before he gets put to sleep, or hit with magic (Not listed in the profile but this wiki considers fairy type moves to be magic)? Because magic is not resisted by him and clefable would start with them since it is a fairy type pokemon


If Whitebeard has longer range attacks that can one shot clefairy then its unfair for it

 

[Imaginym]

Damn bro

So any explanation on how he gonna one shot before he gets put to sleep, or hit with magic (Not listed in the profile but this wiki considers fairy type moves to be magic)? Because magic is not resisted by him and clefable would start with them since it is a fairy type pokemon


If Whitebeard has longer range attacks that can one shot clefairy then its unfair for it

There is the argument about Conqueror's Haki, as we've seen above, though, Pokemon being animals, or even mentally alike to typical animals is questionable. I mean, for one, Pokemon often choose & show willingness to battle, some even seeming to get excited at the thought of it, & they often seem to show Intelligence you wouldn't expect of typical animals.

There's also some stuff that may help, but I'm not sure we currently use it. Affection stuff, Friendship mechanics, possibly Memories, as well.

Looking at range:
Range: Extended melee range to several meters with his bisento, at least several hundred meters with air quakes (can also indirectly generate effects much further than that, at the very least hundreds of kilometers away)
Standard melee range, tens of kilometers with most attacks.

IIRC, Starting Distance is largest range of the combatants, but limited up to 4 KM away, so, they'd start 4 kilometers apart.

 

[Eminiteable]

Wondering if putting Whitebeard to sleep will even be effective since he can seemingly using observation haki in his sleep:

 

[Garchomp777]

Wondering if putting Whitebeard to sleep will even be effective since he can seemingly using observation haki in his sleep:

Thats definitely a win condition there. But can that be used? Its not on the profile that he has minor resistance to sleep manip via that scan

 

[Eminiteable]

I mean he's assumingly doing it via observation haki so it's on the profile I guess.

 

[Imaginym]

You're assuming despite no claim it was Haki? Other than audience assumption & his ability to use Haki, what supports that he did use Haki in that instance?

Also, Observation Haki in Sleep isn't as useful if it's just in reaction to danger:
Victory Conditions: Death of the opponent, removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week (BFR), knocking the opponent out for at least one hour, or incapacitating the opponent by putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day, are to be assumed as victory conditions.

If he counts as knocked out, Clefable can just Sing him a lullaby & then peacefully live Whitebeard alone for an hour.

 

[Eminiteable]

Is it in character for them to just leave him alone while he's asleep? Because just going by the games Pokémon usually attack after putting someone to sleep.

 

[Garchomp777]

Some of them wont actually. Like in the episode with ancient jigglypuff vs alakazam and gengar

 

[Imaginym]

Is it in character for them to just leave him alone while he's asleep? Because just going by the games Pokémon usually attack after putting someone to sleep.

Frankly, I'd dare say yes. While SBA prohibits characters from fleeing/surrendering, peacefully leaving an incapacitated opponent probably IS in-character for Clefable.
Or at least risk, I'd presume abstaining from waking him up or trying to keep him asleep is acceptable.

"A timid fairy POKéMON that is rarely seen. It will run and hide the moment it senses people."
"Its very sensitive ears lets it distinguish distant sounds. As a result, it prefers quiet places."
"Rarely seen by people, it is said to be drawn by the full moon to play at deserted lakes."
"They don’t like to reveal themselves in front of people. They live quietly in packs deep in the mountains."
"It can’t help but hear a pin drop from over half a mile away, so it lives deep in the mountains where there aren’t many people or Pokémon."

Amusingly, this makes the (unintentionally?) cruel nature of this match ultimately work to Clefable's benefit; Whitebeard's power is vibration based, & sounds are just vibrations in the air. & Clefable is not only avoidant of both other people AND Pokemon, but it has hyper-sensitive ears & hearing to the point it can't help hearing a pin drop a KM away (Pokemon's original Japanese language uses metric & likes nice round measurements, so measurements like "nearly 1,100 yards" & "over half a mile" probably mean 1 KM.) so it would probably HATE dealing with Whitebeard.

Imagine having ultra-sensitive hearing & there's this guy who, half the time, makes huge quakes in the air.

If I got Whitebeard to sleep & was a hyper-anti-social fairy-thing with super hearing that's always active, I'd probably want to ditch that guy ASAP, too.

 

[Eminiteable]

Frankly, I'd dare say yes. While SBA prohibits characters from retreating, peacefully leaving an incapacitated opponent probably IS in-character for Clefable.

"A timid fairy POKéMON that is rarely seen. It will run and hide the moment it senses people."
"Its very sensitive ears lets it distinguish distant sounds. As a result, it prefers quiet places."
"Rarely seen by people, it is said to be drawn by the full moon to play at deserted lakes."
"They don’t like to reveal themselves in front of people. They live quietly in packs deep in the mountains."
"It can’t help but hear a pin drop from over half a mile away, so it lives deep in the mountains where there aren’t many people or Pokémon."

Amusingly, this makes the (unintentionally?) cruel nature of this match ultimately work to Clefable's benefit; Whitebeard's power is vibration based, & sounds are just vibrations in the air. & Clefable is not only avoidant of both other people AND Pokemon, but it has hyper-sensitive ears & hearing to the point it can't help hearing a pin drop a KM away (Pokemon's original Japanese language uses metric & likes nice round measurements, so measurements like "nearly 1,100 yards" & "over half a mile" probably mean 1 KM.) so it would probably HATE dealing with Whitebeard.

Imagine having ultra-sensitive hearing & there's this guy who, half the time, makes huge quakes in the air.

If I got Whitebeard to sleep & was a hyper-anti-social fairy-thing with super hearing that's always active, I'd probably want to ditch that guy ASAP, too.

Guess that would work, although would sing even put Whitebeard to sleep for a whole 24 hours, I'm not aware of the anime but in the games it's usually for a few turns. There's also the case of sing having low accuracy (not sure how this translates to the profiles)

 

[KingTempest]

What's its range?

Ace used Passive Haoshoku Haki when he stepped on an island 51km in diameter.

Ace Passively Heats up Drum Island

vsbattles.fandom.com

Whitebeard's is enormously over his.

Luffy knocked out 50,000 people this far away

WBs is over his

Also it seems like clefable has more win cons but Whitebeard has a more powerful ability

Pretty much

 

[Imaginym]

Guess that would work, although would sing even put Whitebeard to sleep for a while 24 hours, I'm not aware of the anime but in the games it's usually for a few turns. There's also the case of sing having low accuracy (not sure how this translates to the profiles)

It could be argued that it may also qualify as being knocked out, which only requires 1 hour.
Unsure how accuracy translates, but IIRC, when Jigglypuff sang in the anime, people often seemed to sleep more than that.

Also, if Clefable CAN'T retreat (Because SBA) without winning, what stops it from just waiting for Whitebeard from Singing again if Whitebeard starts waking up.

 

[KingTempest]

Don't Clefable's attacks need to hit, while we have a man who could sense people in his sleep?

Rest doesn't matter, it just knocks him to sleep which doesn't do anything to WB.

It's already counted, but I vote WB via AP advantage, dura neg, Haoshoku Haki, and sensing while sleeping (so Singing doesn't do much)

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

"A timid fairy POKéMON that is rarely seen. It will run and hide the moment it senses people."
"Its very sensitive ears lets it distinguish distant sounds. As a result, it prefers quiet places."
"Rarely seen by people, it is said to be drawn by the full moon to play at deserted lakes."
"They don’t like to reveal themselves in front of people. They live quietly in packs deep in the mountains."
"It can’t help but hear a pin drop from over half a mile away, so it lives deep in the mountains where there aren’t many people or Pokémon."

BTW If clefable is a timid creature that's scared of regular people and paranoid, then why shouldn't conquerors haki work? especially when it works against manly men pirate chad dudes.

 

[Imaginym]

Don't Clefable's attacks need to hit, while we have a man who could sense people in his sleep?

Rest doesn't matter, it just knocks him to sleep which doesn't do anything to WB.

It's already counted, but I vote WB via AP advantage, dura neg, Haoshoku Haki, and sensing while sleeping (so Singing doesn't do much)

Why would it miss? Sing is a song, he can hear.
Being put to sleep & then staying that way (If we count going to sleep as being Knocked Out.) for over an hour does matter, since being knocked out an hour loses you the match. Otherwise, 24 hours of sleep is also a loss condition for Whitebeard.
While you might argue he might not hear it while asleep, I find myself incredulous he COULD dodge being sung to while asleep, especially if Clefable's range applies to that. Let alone that his Haki would make him think to dodge far enough to get out of the song's range in his sleep.
& he probably could hear it if waking up.

Going to sleep, starting to wake up, then going back to sleep again for 24 hours sounds like "incapacitating the opponent by putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day" to me.

BTW If clefable is a timid creature that's scared of regular people and paranoid, then why shouldn't conquerors haki work? especially when it works against manly men pirate chad dudes.

Quoting myself quoting the profiles:
Range: Extended melee range to several meters with his bisento, at least several hundred meters with air quakes (can also indirectly generate effects much further than that, at the very least hundreds of kilometers away)
Standard melee range, tens of kilometers with most attacks.

Even if Whitebeard's "several hundred meters" is 900 meters, & Clefable's "tens of kilometers" were only 20 km, Clefable would still outrange his quakes by over 22 times. & I'd question that the "indirect effects" are sufficient to vibrate someone to death.
Yes, they're starting no further apart than 4 kilometers, but Whitebeard is still over 4 times further away than his quakes can reach directly.
Given no other info about Range on his profiles, I'd presume that his Haki range is similar, but that's something that should be brought up & revised in a CRT, not a Versus Thread.

Also, based on my readings of the Pokedex entries, I'm not sure how you summarized it is COMPLETELY accurate. https://pokemondb.net/pokedex/clefable

I wouldn't say it's "scared of regular people". It's made clear Clefable CAN'T HELP but hear from huge distances, & it avoids people and Pokemon alike; Many of its entries also emphasize it being found in or hiding in quiet places, implying it's not entirely being scared that causes avoidance so much as just wanting quietness from its hypersensitive hearing.
I'm not sure where you got it being paranoid from. Timid, maybe, but being timid with good hearing for the sake of peace & quiet doesn't make you distrusting.

As for the matter of Haki/willpower, besides that it isn't necessarily Whitebeard's opening move, Clefable does have this:
"They appear to be very protective of their own world. It is a kind of fairy, rarely seen by people."
So it is a species capable of showing some spine.

Also, from this thread: "Well pokemon have strong wills, their will to live can make them regen life force and stuff."
Pokemon also often use Empathic Manipulation on one another, given many Status Moves, not to mention Disarming Voice, which does "emotional damage.". Zen Headbutt is a move described as focusing all of its Willpower into its head, so it's not entirely unheard of for Pokemon to involve such things in their attacks.

Also, quoting myself from earlier:
"There is the argument about Conqueror's Haki, as we've seen above, though, Pokemon being animals, or even mentally alike to typical animals is questionable. I mean, for one, Pokemon often choose & show willingness to battle, some even seeming to get excited at the thought of it, & they often seem to show Intelligence you wouldn't expect of typical animals."

Spoiler: & stuff that's not on the profiles that some might call game mechanics (so who cares, lol?):

Pokemon memories often give focus to remembering strong opponents, supporting their interest in battling.
Trying to send out a Fainted Pokemon has, in some games given the dialogue "there's no will to battle".
Pokemon gain Friendship if you battle Gym Leaders, Elite Four or a Champion, implying they like these strong battles. They also lose 10 Friendship for fainting to an opponent 30 or more levels higher, but also 1 if they faint to an opponent weaker than that. That this is distinguished implies Pokemon are more okay with losing fights they actually had a shot at, or hate being curb-stomped.
Pokemon being able to bond with their trainers is often talked about, the importance of it emphasized, & IIRC, how it can strengthen them.
There's also some of the Affection dialogue:
"<Pokémon> healed its burn with its sheer determination so you wouldn't worry!"
"<Pokémon> melted the ice with its fiery determination so you wouldn't worry!"
"<Pokémon> gathered all its energy to break through its paralysis so you wouldn't worry!"
(Some other Affection dialogue may be arguable as related, but I'm skeptical. Also, it's uncertain if Pokemon have the capacity for this willpower without bonding with a trainer.)

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

A previous comment showed that luffy has a very high range with conquerors haki and that he could knock out 50,000 soldier fishman giga chad fighters with ease and whitebeard is above this. This doesn't prove that clefable can withstand this attack, and having human intelligence doesn't mean shit to conqueror haki. This is also wild clefable so it isn't trained or anything like that.

 

[Imaginym]

A previous comment showed that luffy has a very high range with conquerors haki and that he could knock out 50,000 soldier fishman giga chad fighters with ease and whitebeard is above this. This doesn't prove that clefable can withstand this attack, and having human intelligence doesn't mean shit to conqueror haki. This is also wild clefable so it isn't trained or anything like that.

While I agree, it's a great feat for Haki, said range/the feat doesn't seem to be listed on Whitebeard's profile, however, so it can be assumed it hasn't been accepted as valid to apply to his profile, & thus, it's questionable at best to use it in Versus Threads.
It should be brought up in a CRT for it to be added & applied.
Also, it was argued that it works better on animals than humans, but then argue that human intelligence doesn't matter? Feels a little strange.

I agree, it is a Wild Clefable. The point of those examples is they may set a precedent that Pokemon have the CAPACITY to demonstrate such things, & thus, the strongest version of a Wild Pokemon might be able to do such a thing.... If it does indeed, not require a bond with a trainer to achieve at all.

For the sake of comprehensiveness, I suppose I should also mention that there's also that Clefable has Magic Guard, an ability which is described as "The Pokémon only takes damage from attacks.". However, I'm unsure if it'd actually block Haki, since whether it's an attack or indirect source of "damage" or such. Again, mentioning it mostly for comprehensiveness. I don't put much stock in it in this match.


Nonetheless, I'd say the other points stand, given they weren't addressed.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Yeah I agree with you on the timid pokedex entry thing because pokedex is kind of stupid sometimes and your interpretation makes more sense. But the intelligence doesn't matter because animals tend to have weaker wills than humans and supreme king haki has been shown working against really tough and strong people who are pirates or renowned. Supreme king haki also has supernatural powers like it isn't just some aura, it's been shown to effect and break wood and lift bodies off the floor and even create a lot of wind. I think this has to do with the power of it and whitebeard should posses the highest grade of this haki. But the best argument here is that, POKEMON YIELD TO CHILDREN AFTER BEING CAPTURED. This makes them act pretty much like slaves for life to trainers who are weaker than them. This isn't exclusive to just weak pokemon but also legendaries whom are the strongest kinds of pokemon. IMO conquerors haki should effect clefable and knock it out or at the very least intimidate it completely.