When Creators Cry: Answer Arcs (Yes, it's a downgrade)

[LoliNeverforlife]

Nah, nothing scales.
It's just the thing from which stuff are born n all.

But what about Bernkastel's declaration?

 

[QuasiYuri]

But what about Bernkastel's declaration?

It's something anyone can do the same way killing someone send them to the Afterlife.
Oblivion is like where you go when you achieve the equivalent of death in meta world.

 

[Antvasima]

@QuasiYuri

Can you rewrite the explanation pages for Umineko, so they become accurate and informative, and match the current tiers, please?

 

[QuasiYuri]

@QuasiYuri

Can you rewrite the explanation pages for Umineko, so they become accurate and informative, and match the current tiers, please?

I just came back home, so I'll work on it some minutes later.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you very much for helping out.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Why do we scale endless magic to high 1-b? Now no 3rd domain, the depth of oblivion does not scale to anyone and only high-level witches will scale to the entire ladder. So those who are still on the ladder but not at the level of high-level witches seem to be at that level with endless magic. At least that's what I think.

That's why I think we should remove the endless magic from the profiles it is in. Or an explanation as to why the endless magic is still found in the profiles after the revision would be great.

Tbh I don't mind it being removed. It's a bit messy and facilating one's ascencion isn't really a tiering thing.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Also, I'm gonna remove The Creator and Santa Claus from the verse page, can someone delete the two profiles?

 

[Darksmash]

Tbh I don't mind it being removed. It's a bit messy and facilating one's ascencion isn't really a tiering thing.

It's also confusing me to no end. Like some characters literally have it in their piece keys I believe, which makes no sense

 

[QuasiYuri]

It's also confusing me to no end. Like some characters literally have it in their piece keys I believe, which makes no sense

Go ahead and remove it then. The lack of scans and the justification not really being a tier thing doesn't help.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Removed Santa and Creator from the verse pages, both need to be deleted.

I also edited the cosmology page n the verse one, but Truths are still locked so can't do anything 'bout them rn.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

doesn't lambdadelta and bern also had transduality for some reason?

 

[Chasekilleen]

I'm surprised that the other supporters of Umineko are practically inactive in this downgrade thread.
Is there a reason why?

 

[Darksmash]

but Truths are still locked so can't do anything 'bout them rn.

Btw hold on with truths for a while. Ultima intends to post on the thread soon

 

[Odinson]

I'm surprised that the other supporters of Umineko are practically inactive in this downgrade thread.
Is there a reason why?

Might be because the Downgrade happened and they're unhappy with it

 

[Kuro4416]

May I ask, why is the FAA speed downgraded to immea not irre.

Is their existence now for every witch? Countless D or inf D?

There are a few errors in the battler's profile because his 1A has not been removed.

 

[Darksmash]

There are a few errors in the battler's profile because his 1A has not been removed.

It had been removed. Someone just added it back

 

[LoliNeverforlife]

Pages would have to be unlocked only for allowed members.

 

[Darksmash]

Go ahead and remove it then. The lack of scans and the justification not really being a tier thing doesn't help.

allright based on this and what Ultima said on discord I will remove potentially High 1-B from profiles other than Beatrice

 

[Darksmash]

May I ask, why is the FAA speed downgraded to immea not irre.

because that key is no longer 1-A. And her 1-A key already has omnipresence

Edit: I am also rewording descriptions of underside to "lacking space time" from "beyond space time", since the former is more consistent with it's descriptions and Ultima agreed with it.

 

[Kuro4416]

because that key is no longer 1-A. And her 1-A key already has omnipresence

Thanks darksmash, now I understand.

 

[Darksmash]

I believe all the pages except the in-depth cosmology blog and Truths have been modified to suit the revision now. Check them once before locking though, just in case.

Also unlock the theory goats and black battler profiles since they would need the underside of the gameboard rewording as well

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Why is the Creator's page not nuked from Vsb yet?

 

[Kuro4416]

Why is the Creator's page not nuked from Vsb yet?

Maybe someone has added it back? Well because most of them are still not locked

 

[QuasiYuri]

Why is the Creator's page not nuked from Vsb yet?

Because nobody did yet.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

It's the big boi in the CRT bruh. How can I delete it?

 

[Odinson]

Normal users can't delete pages (I think)

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Exactly.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I'm surprised that the other supporters of Umineko are practically inactive in this downgrade thread.
Is there a reason why?

Laziness.

Btw hold on with truths for a while. Ultima intends to post on the thread soon

Yeah, I do. Anyway:

It's something anyone can do the same way killing someone send them to the Afterlife.
Oblivion is like where you go when you achieve the equivalent of death in meta world.

I gather that this is the main reasoning for Truths not scaling to Oblivion in terms of hax potency anymore, yes? If so, I think that's a flawed way to put it. The whole purpose of the Truths is to deny the existence of an opponent and as such strike at them on the conceptual level, which sends them to Oblivion because the Sea of Fragments is inherently a world of possibilities, illusions and ideas, and the Depths are in turn the place where forgotten/discarded concepts end up; as I see it not taking into account that aspect of them is pretty much the same as not taking into account the effects of the Truths in the first place.

The method itself is also not indirect as you (And seemingly a few others, based on my conversations with Darksmash off-site, at least) make it out to be because even in-verse, they make an explicit difference between placing the opponent in a state of mind where they begin to doubt their own existence (Or forget their own form and identity) and thus naturally go to Oblivion and directly refuting their existence, the latter of which is something we actually see Beatrice doing to herself and the entirety of her Territory at the end of Episode 3.

Another issue Darksmash brought up to me while we were discussing this is that it makes no sense for a character's hax to work on beings of higher planes than themselves in Umineko, but I think that concern is mostly null because of how even the verse itself makes it clear Truths bypass that anyway. For instance, the Game Master exists on a plane above the entire Territory according to Battler's Episode 6 profile, and yet he still managed to skewer Beatrice with his Blue Truths during Episode 4 anyway, which is repeated by the narration in Episode 6, where Dlanor's Red Key is directly stated to have enough power to slice Game Master Battler in half.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I gather that this is the main reasoning for Truths not scaling to Oblivion in terms of hax potency anymore, yes? If so, I think that's a flawed way to put it. The whole purpose of the Truths is to deny the existence of an opponent and as such strike at them on the conceptual level, which sends them to Oblivion because the Sea of Fragments is inherently a world of possibilities, illusions and ideas, and the Depths are in turn the place where forgotten/discarded concepts end up; as I see it not taking into account that aspect of them is pretty much the same as not taking into account the effects of the Truths in the first place.

Except it isn't a Truth thing.

It's just how everything is born and how everything die. People falling and being subject to boredom has the same effect.

Truths sends denied people there because it's where every denied existence ends up, not because they are Truths.

The method itself is also not indirect as you (And seemingly a few others, based on my conversations with Darksmash off-site, at least) make it out to be because even in-verse, they make an explicit difference between placing the opponent in a state of mind where they begin to doubt their own existence (Or forget their own form and identity) and thus naturally go to Oblivion and directly refuting their existence, the latter of which is something we actually see Beatrice doing to herself and the entirety of her Territory at the end of Episode 3.

It's the exact difference between leading someone to suicide (Blue) and killing them by hand (Red)

In both cases, what matters is that they die.

You aren't affecting the Afterlife (Oblivion) itself, you just make people reach it in two different ways.

Another issue Darksmash brought up to me while we were discussing this is that it makes no sense for a character's hax to work on beings of higher planes than themselves in Umineko, but I think that concern is mostly null because of how even the verse itself makes it clear Truths bypass that anyway. For instance, the Game Master exists on a plane above the entire Territory according to Battler's Episode 6 profile, and yet he still managed to skewer Beatrice with his Blue Truths during Episode 4 anyway, which is repeated by the narration in Episode 6, where Dlanor's Red Key is directly stated to have enough power to slice Game Master Battler in half.

In Battler's case we know that Beato is doomed to lose and let herself be killed here.

For Dlanor the Red Key is an absolute judgement delivered once the conditions are met, making it logic.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Except it isn't a Truth thing.

It's just how everything is born and how everything die. People falling and being subject to boredom has the same effect.

Truths sends denied people there because it's where every denied existence ends up, not because they are Truths.

It's the exact difference between leading someone to suicide (Blue) and killing them by hand (Red)

In both cases, what matters is that they die.

You aren't affecting the Afterlife (Oblivion) itself, you just make people reach it in two different ways.

That doesn't really detract from my point because Truths themselves are just a more direct way of enacting this denial of existence, and other methods having the same effect does not harm the main point in any way. There are a number of instances where characters in the Meta-World "die" and yet still leave physical remains behind, like in Episode 3, when Battler gets reduced to mincemeat by the Stakes and then by Lucifer, or in Episodes 4 and 6, where Ange gets turned into burger meat, and 8, where the same thing happens, with the addition of the narration saying that even then she hadn't reached the point where she will sink into the Depths yet.

All of this is very obviously distinct from the act of fading into Oblivion, which is way more abstract and explicitly referred to as erasure, after which you only live on as a formless spirit/consciousness in the void. The point is that the Truths induce that state directly, and not through indirect means like you seem to be implying.

In Battler's case we know that Beato is doomed to lose and let herself be killed here.

She was still getting damaged by them until she decided to fight back, which coincides with how the Blue Truth is stated and shown to work in other parts of the story (i.e unless explicitly denied in Red, they are taken as valid and whatever was proposed in them is written into the Fragment).

For Dlanor the Red Key is an absolute judgement delivered once the conditions are met, making it logic.

It is still based on the Red Truth. It's just a weapon that allows Dlanor to proclaim things in red without being a Witch or the master of a mystery.

 

[Darksmash]

and 8, where the same thing happens, with the addition of the narration saying that even then she hadn't reached the point where she will sink into the Depths yet.

It's because Oblivion is more associated with mental death than physical.(Aka "giving up", "losing interest" etc. Remember meta world has two kinds of deaths). Ange in that state was suicidal after learning the truth, which is why iirc Bern also says she will eventually reach Oblivion while floating (unless you think Oblivion can be physically reached from CoB).

Also about the GM thing, even if we go with the interpretation that they exist on a higher layer truths working on them would just be because iirc they fall under the rules they create themselves. Which is why Beatrice couldn't lie using the red truth even though it was a rule she herself created. So we don't know whether truths working on the GM logically implies it would work on beings outside the gameboard or not. We also see Lambda deflecting a truth with a popcorn, which wouldn't make sense if they had Oblivion level potency.

 

[QuasiYuri]

That doesn't really detract from my point because Truths themselves are just a more direct way of enacting this denial of existence, and other methods having the same effect does not harm the main point in any way. There are a number of instances where characters in the Meta-World "die" and yet still leave physical remains behind, like in Episode 3, when Battler gets reduced to mincemeat by the Stakes and then by Lucifer, or in Episodes 4 and 6, where Ange gets turned into burger meat, and 8, where the same thing happens, with the addition of the narration saying that even then she hadn't reached the point where she will sink into the Depths yet.

In the cases you posted they didn't lose their ability to think, ended up bored, or anything remotely similar, which is what death truly means in Meta World.

We know that "physical" damage won't cut it and doesn't truly matter as a fact. Your ep3 shows pretty well how it is no big deal in itself.

All of this is very obviously distinct from the act of fading into Oblivion, which is way more abstract and explicitly referred to as erasure, after which you only live on as a formless spirit/consciousness in the void. The point is that the Truths induce that state directly, and not through indirect means like you seem to be implying.

See my point above.

Truths aren't influencing Oblivion to do something, they just inflict you what is the true equivalent of death in Umineko, therefore sending you here.

Also even if you compare that, it wouldn't make them scale to Oblivion nor its full scale. Erasing someone never meant you somehow scaled to the entire concept of non-existence your verse has.

She was still getting damaged by them until she decided to fight back, which coincides with how the Blue Truth is stated and shown to work in other parts of the story (i.e unless explicitly denied in Red, they are taken as valid and whatever was proposed in them is written into the Fragment).

It is still based on the Red Truth. It's just a weapon that allows Dlanor to proclaim things in red without being a Witch or the master of a mystery.

Because that's how Blue Truth works. You are more damaging yourself than getting damaged since it is a self-denial attack.

They have the same nature*.
Dlanor's Red Key remains a very offensive variation meant to deal final judgement.

 

[Darksmash]

Since the truth stuff won't affect any of the character profiles I guess they should be locked since someone keeps Vandalising them.

Also unlock Black Battler and Theory Goats for a minor change

 

[Megaraptor149]

Since the truth stuff won't affect any of the character profiles I guess they should be locked since someone keeps Vandalising them.

Also unlock Black Battler and Theory Goats for a minor change

I think, some people who vandalize battler profiles are people who don't accept downgrades.

 

[Darksmash]

I think, some people who vandalize battler profiles are people who don't accept downgrades.

There are both kinds of people. Some of them vandalised by giving them higher tiers while others gave them lower tiers.

 

[Tarang123]

There's honestly a 90% chance that the people that vandalized his profile were just trolling (my respect is given to them)

 

[Kuro4416]

There's honestly a 90% chance that the people that vandalized his profile were just trolling

I think only 60%

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Since the truth stuff won't affect any of the character profiles I guess they should be locked since someone keeps Vandalising them.
Also unlock Black Battler and Theory Goats for a minor change

Not yet, let's just wait till Ultima's response. till one of the teo concedes (Yuri or Ultima).

 

[Darksmash]

Not yet, let's just wait till Ultima's response. till one of the teo concedes (Yuri or Ultima).

The truth stuff won't affect the character profiles anyway, which is why I suggest locking them.

 

[Lynieryz]

truths scaling with oblivion or not, it's irrelevant isn't it? with the first case, the BFR and EE will be 1A and in the second the BFR will be 1B and EE 1A