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When Creators Cry: Answer Arcs (Yes, it's a downgrade)

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QuasiYuri said:
Nah, nothing scales.
It's just the thing from which stuff are born n all.
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But what about Bernkastel's declaration?

JPpJRYF.jpg
RVjvCg8.jpg
 
@QuasiYuri

Can you rewrite the explanation pages for Umineko, so they become accurate and informative, and match the current tiers, please?
 
HalilAssassino said:
Why do we scale endless magic to high 1-b? Now no 3rd domain, the depth of oblivion does not scale to anyone and only high-level witches will scale to the entire ladder. So those who are still on the ladder but not at the level of high-level witches seem to be at that level with endless magic. At least that's what I think.

That's why I think we should remove the endless magic from the profiles it is in. Or an explanation as to why the endless magic is still found in the profiles after the revision would be great.
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Tbh I don't mind it being removed. It's a bit messy and facilating one's ascencion isn't really a tiering thing.
 
QuasiYuri said:
Tbh I don't mind it being removed. It's a bit messy and facilating one's ascencion isn't really a tiering thing.
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It's also confusing me to no end. Like some characters literally have it in their piece keys I believe, which makes no sense
 
Darksmash said:
It's also confusing me to no end. Like some characters literally have it in their piece keys I believe, which makes no sense
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Go ahead and remove it then. The lack of scans and the justification not really being a tier thing doesn't help.
 
Removed Santa and Creator from the verse pages, both need to be deleted.

I also edited the cosmology page n the verse one, but Truths are still locked so can't do anything 'bout them rn.
 
I'm surprised that the other supporters of Umineko are practically inactive in this downgrade thread.
Is there a reason why?
 
May I ask, why is the FAA speed downgraded to immea not irre.

Is their existence now for every witch? Countless D or inf D?

There are a few errors in the battler's profile because his 1A has not been removed.
 
Kuro4416 said:
May I ask, why is the FAA speed downgraded to immea not irre.
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because that key is no longer 1-A. And her 1-A key already has omnipresence

Edit: I am also rewording descriptions of underside to "lacking space time" from "beyond space time", since the former is more consistent with it's descriptions and Ultima agreed with it.
 
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I believe all the pages except the in-depth cosmology blog and Truths have been modified to suit the revision now. Check them once before locking though, just in case.

Also unlock the theory goats and black battler profiles since they would need the underside of the gameboard rewording as well
 
Chasekilleen said:
I'm surprised that the other supporters of Umineko are practically inactive in this downgrade thread.
Is there a reason why?
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Laziness.

Darksmash said:
Btw hold on with truths for a while. Ultima intends to post on the thread soon
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Yeah, I do. Anyway:

QuasiYuri said:
It's something anyone can do the same way killing someone send them to the Afterlife.
Oblivion is like where you go when you achieve the equivalent of death in meta world.
Click to expand...

I gather that this is the main reasoning for Truths not scaling to Oblivion in terms of hax potency anymore, yes? If so, I think that's a flawed way to put it. The whole purpose of the Truths is to deny the existence of an opponent and as such strike at them on the conceptual level, which sends them to Oblivion because the Sea of Fragments is inherently a world of possibilities, illusions and ideas, and the Depths are in turn the place where forgotten/discarded concepts end up; as I see it not taking into account that aspect of them is pretty much the same as not taking into account the effects of the Truths in the first place.

The method itself is also not indirect as you (And seemingly a few others, based on my conversations with Darksmash off-site, at least) make it out to be because even in-verse, they make an explicit difference between placing the opponent in a state of mind where they begin to doubt their own existence (Or forget their own form and identity) and thus naturally go to Oblivion and directly refuting their existence, the latter of which is something we actually see Beatrice doing to herself and the entirety of her Territory at the end of Episode 3.

Another issue Darksmash brought up to me while we were discussing this is that it makes no sense for a character's hax to work on beings of higher planes than themselves in Umineko, but I think that concern is mostly null because of how even the verse itself makes it clear Truths bypass that anyway. For instance, the Game Master exists on a plane above the entire Territory according to Battler's Episode 6 profile, and yet he still managed to skewer Beatrice with his Blue Truths during Episode 4 anyway, which is repeated by the narration in Episode 6, where Dlanor's Red Key is directly stated to have enough power to slice Game Master Battler in half.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I gather that this is the main reasoning for Truths not scaling to Oblivion in terms of hax potency anymore, yes? If so, I think that's a flawed way to put it. The whole purpose of the Truths is to deny the existence of an opponent and as such strike at them on the conceptual level, which sends them to Oblivion because the Sea of Fragments is inherently a world of possibilities, illusions and ideas, and the Depths are in turn the place where forgotten/discarded concepts end up; as I see it not taking into account that aspect of them is pretty much the same as not taking into account the effects of the Truths in the first place.
Click to expand...
Except it isn't a Truth thing.

It's just how everything is born and how everything die. People falling and being subject to boredom has the same effect.

Truths sends denied people there because it's where every denied existence ends up, not because they are Truths.
Ultima_Reality said:
The method itself is also not indirect as you (And seemingly a few others, based on my conversations with Darksmash off-site, at least) make it out to be because even in-verse, they make an explicit difference between placing the opponent in a state of mind where they begin to doubt their own existence (Or forget their own form and identity) and thus naturally go to Oblivion and directly refuting their existence, the latter of which is something we actually see Beatrice doing to herself and the entirety of her Territory at the end of Episode 3.
Click to expand...
It's the exact difference between leading someone to suicide (Blue) and killing them by hand (Red)

In both cases, what matters is that they die.

You aren't affecting the Afterlife (Oblivion) itself, you just make people reach it in two different ways.
Ultima_Reality said:
Another issue Darksmash brought up to me while we were discussing this is that it makes no sense for a character's hax to work on beings of higher planes than themselves in Umineko, but I think that concern is mostly null because of how even the verse itself makes it clear Truths bypass that anyway. For instance, the Game Master exists on a plane above the entire Territory according to Battler's Episode 6 profile, and yet he still managed to skewer Beatrice with his Blue Truths during Episode 4 anyway, which is repeated by the narration in Episode 6, where Dlanor's Red Key is directly stated to have enough power to slice Game Master Battler in half.
Click to expand...
In Battler's case we know that Beato is doomed to lose and let herself be killed here.

For Dlanor the Red Key is an absolute judgement delivered once the conditions are met, making it logic.
 
QuasiYuri said:
Except it isn't a Truth thing.

It's just how everything is born and how everything die. People falling and being subject to boredom has the same effect.

Truths sends denied people there because it's where every denied existence ends up, not because they are Truths.
Click to expand...
QuasiYuri said:
It's the exact difference between leading someone to suicide (Blue) and killing them by hand (Red)

In both cases, what matters is that they die.

You aren't affecting the Afterlife (Oblivion) itself, you just make people reach it in two different ways.
Click to expand...
That doesn't really detract from my point because Truths themselves are just a more direct way of enacting this denial of existence, and other methods having the same effect does not harm the main point in any way. There are a number of instances where characters in the Meta-World "die" and yet still leave physical remains behind, like in Episode 3, when Battler gets reduced to mincemeat by the Stakes and then by Lucifer, or in Episodes 4 and 6, where Ange gets turned into burger meat, and 8, where the same thing happens, with the addition of the narration saying that even then she hadn't reached the point where she will sink into the Depths yet.

All of this is very obviously distinct from the act of fading into Oblivion, which is way more abstract and explicitly referred to as erasure, after which you only live on as a formless spirit/consciousness in the void. The point is that the Truths induce that state directly, and not through indirect means like you seem to be implying.

QuasiYuri said:
In Battler's case we know that Beato is doomed to lose and let herself be killed here.
Click to expand...
She was still getting damaged by them until she decided to fight back, which coincides with how the Blue Truth is stated and shown to work in other parts of the story (i.e unless explicitly denied in Red, they are taken as valid and whatever was proposed in them is written into the Fragment).

QuasiYuri said:
For Dlanor the Red Key is an absolute judgement delivered once the conditions are met, making it logic.
Click to expand...
It is still based on the Red Truth. It's just a weapon that allows Dlanor to proclaim things in red without being a Witch or the master of a mystery.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
and 8, where the same thing happens, with the addition of the narration saying that even then she hadn't reached the point where she will sink into the Depths yet.
Click to expand...
It's because Oblivion is more associated with mental death than physical.(Aka "giving up", "losing interest" etc. Remember meta world has two kinds of deaths). Ange in that state was suicidal after learning the truth, which is why iirc Bern also says she will eventually reach Oblivion while floating (unless you think Oblivion can be physically reached from CoB).

Also about the GM thing, even if we go with the interpretation that they exist on a higher layer truths working on them would just be because iirc they fall under the rules they create themselves. Which is why Beatrice couldn't lie using the red truth even though it was a rule she herself created. So we don't know whether truths working on the GM logically implies it would work on beings outside the gameboard or not. We also see Lambda deflecting a truth with a popcorn, which wouldn't make sense if they had Oblivion level potency.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
That doesn't really detract from my point because Truths themselves are just a more direct way of enacting this denial of existence, and other methods having the same effect does not harm the main point in any way. There are a number of instances where characters in the Meta-World "die" and yet still leave physical remains behind, like in Episode 3, when Battler gets reduced to mincemeat by the Stakes and then by Lucifer, or in Episodes 4 and 6, where Ange gets turned into burger meat, and 8, where the same thing happens, with the addition of the narration saying that even then she hadn't reached the point where she will sink into the Depths yet.
Click to expand...
In the cases you posted they didn't lose their ability to think, ended up bored, or anything remotely similar, which is what death truly means in Meta World.

We know that "physical" damage won't cut it and doesn't truly matter as a fact. Your ep3 shows pretty well how it is no big deal in itself.
Ultima_Reality said:
All of this is very obviously distinct from the act of fading into Oblivion, which is way more abstract and explicitly referred to as erasure, after which you only live on as a formless spirit/consciousness in the void. The point is that the Truths induce that state directly, and not through indirect means like you seem to be implying.
Click to expand...
See my point above.

Truths aren't influencing Oblivion to do something, they just inflict you what is the true equivalent of death in Umineko, therefore sending you here.

Also even if you compare that, it wouldn't make them scale to Oblivion nor its full scale. Erasing someone never meant you somehow scaled to the entire concept of non-existence your verse has.

Ultima_Reality said:
She was still getting damaged by them until she decided to fight back, which coincides with how the Blue Truth is stated and shown to work in other parts of the story (i.e unless explicitly denied in Red, they are taken as valid and whatever was proposed in them is written into the Fragment).

It is still based on the Red Truth. It's just a weapon that allows Dlanor to proclaim things in red without being a Witch or the master of a mystery.
Click to expand...
Because that's how Blue Truth works. You are more damaging yourself than getting damaged since it is a self-denial attack.

They have the same nature*.
Dlanor's Red Key remains a very offensive variation meant to deal final judgement.
 
Since the truth stuff won't affect any of the character profiles I guess they should be locked since someone keeps Vandalising them.

Also unlock Black Battler and Theory Goats for a minor change
 
Darksmash said:
Since the truth stuff won't affect any of the character profiles I guess they should be locked since someone keeps Vandalising them.

Also unlock Black Battler and Theory Goats for a minor change
Click to expand...
I think, some people who vandalize battler profiles are people who don't accept downgrades.
 
There's honestly a 90% chance that the people that vandalized his profile were just trolling (my respect is given to them)
 
Darksmash said:
Since the truth stuff won't affect any of the character profiles I guess they should be locked since someone keeps Vandalising them.
Also unlock Black Battler and Theory Goats for a minor change
Click to expand...
Not yet, let's just wait till Ultima's response. till one of the teo concedes (Yuri or Ultima).
 
truths scaling with oblivion or not, it's irrelevant isn't it? with the first case, the BFR and EE will be 1A and in the second the BFR will be 1B and EE 1A
 
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