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When Creators Cry: Answer Arcs (Yes, it's a downgrade)

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Tarang123 said:
That's actually something I can somewhat agree with tbh. Besides, I'm not sure if character actually scale to the "places" they BFR others to in the first place. Not sure why they'd scale to the Oblivion when they just send stuff there through denying them.
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I agree even if my favorite verse will lost some smurf.
 
Okay. No problem. Thank you for helping out.
 
Tarang123 said:
That's actually something I can somewhat agree with tbh. Besides, I'm not sure if character actually scale to the "places" they BFR others to in the first place. Not sure why they'd scale to the Oblivion when they just send stuff there through denying them.
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Killing someone doesn't mean you BFR them to afterlife. They just end up there because of the rules of the cosmology
 
Alright, time to precise stuff:

Ultima_Reality said:
Note, also, that Beatrice is never really referred to as being special in that regard, and further down the line, we meet Piece, who outright describes herself as being an entity whose esistence is similar to the pillar supporting the world: That is, if said pillar is a great candle lit by Featherine's energy, then she is a another candle of a similar degree, but whose flames are completely separate from those of the pillar:
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As said by Ultima, I conceded his point on witches (imo there's not enough to disprove it even if I'm not for it, if it was something getting added it could have been refused but removing is harder; although it also mean I'm not gonna argue against Darkmash either).
However I did precise that "it would just need Piece's justification to be modified" because she just refers to Feath giving her power and all, not her nature as a Voyager (I dont even think she actually is outright called one too? but eh, didn't do Last Note a lot).

And I think we agreed that the tiering shouldn't be above what was shown, so no all-encompassing concepts but more like, City Book-scale ones.
Ultima_Reality said:
The only thing we seem to disagree on, so far, is on the subject of the "third domain," but that seems to have moreso to do with the issue of how it would fit into the cosmology that Lambdadelta describes in her memoirs. I, for one, can entertain the possibility that it's beyond the ladder she describes, but that'd probably lead to a notably messy arrangement of the cosmology that the author most likely didn't intend, given how neatly arranged what he does formulate is. So, in regards to tiering, I'm largely neutral, though I think Yuri could elaborate more on what we discussed.
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Think I already developped on that, but basically these "Great Witches" are called "Top Layer(s) Witches" in the databook used as shown prior.
Lambdadelta said that the ladder was one for all of existence, but not that it stopped at her level or anything like that; and even repeated that Creators were at the very end of it.
Featherine's avatar being in the last layers of this ladder with Great Witches makes a lot of sense, since there's no reason for her to just go very low in it or anything like that.
Also Piece's talking about Feath reaching "the peak" to talk about her reaching Creators domain makes sense too.
Ultima_Reality said:
I have some new things that I've been wanting to bring up for a while, though: For one, we currently deem the World of the Creators to be beyond the Depths of Oblivion and the furthest possible point of the cosmology; that contradicts Featherine stating that even Gods can potentially give in to the poison of boredom and stop thinking, and die as a result of that, which in Umineko means sinking back into the depths. The interview with Ryukishi that Yuri posted in the OP corroborates this, as well, since it states that, a long time ago, Featherine died, and then returned "as a writer" (i.e a Creator)

So, in my view, there's precedent for us to not really consider the World of the Creators to the above the Depths of Oblivion, though I admit you can poke holes in this, too, what with Voyagers being able to access the latter and yet being terrified of ever reaching the former and Bernkastel being able to travel even through the deepest parts of Oblivion and yet being completely lost after being drawn into Featherine's Study.
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Well, I'm the one who gave the idea of Oblivion being the background of all of existence at the time of the previous revisions, and my view was that it was the background for really everything, not stopping at whatever place so I obviously agree.

It's just that Voyagers can still travel into a big part of it and that everything's born from it. Doesn't mean anyone scales to some sort of 1-A Oblivion tho. After all Voyagers' entire thing is that they can travel outside of gameboard and stuff. (Best analogy I can think of would be humanity reaching the deepest part of the observable universe, but not the unseen ones)
Darksmash said:
That's just because "dead" things end up in oblivion. Scaling truths to Oblivion would be like scaling the knife of a murderer to afterlife.
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As said prior, I 100% agree with that.

Everyone's born from nothing, and anyone who die turns back to nothing, aka go back into Oblivion.
Darkmash's analogy is as accurate as can be, and you could likely use a ton of fictionnal verses to get the point across.

Idk why we act like Truths are anything special in that regard, since you can technically have a looot of ways to end up to Oblivion.
 
So what tiers will be applied here then?
 
As of now, it should be something like:

1-B Witches
1-B likely High 1-B Great Witches (don't really care about them tbh) and Avatar Featherine
1-A True Featherine, future Maria and maybe Beato potential

Darksmash seems to be more in favor of High 1-B Creators guys but it seems unlikely. Low 1-A likely would be the minimum for them regardless.
 
Okay. I suppose that 1-A Featherine is fine if Ultima has accepted it then.

It is very important that the profile and explanation pages are properly thoroughly updated though.
 
Well I suppose I can agree with low 1-A for Creators due to supposedly existing one step above the ladder(though it makes no mathematical sense to equate that to a jump from countably infinite dimensions to uncountably infinite dimensions but I guess the wiki's standards rarely make sense mathematically).

As for Oblivion I disagree with it being 1-A. I feel like there is too little concrete information to properly decide it's position in the cosmology, but I guess that doesn't matter for tiers since no one would scale to it's entirety even if it's assumed to be above/on the same level as the creator realm.
 
Yeah 1-B Witches should be good, likely H1-B Great Witches. Low 1-A creators is the best for them, 1-A feels a bit reaching and need more context to that. Oblivion should just be L1-A at most, I do not think Oblivion can be 1-A, I mean it's pretty much a graveyard for the verse and lack context, just like Darksmash said.
 
Oblivion doesnt really matter in term of tier yeah, although I said 1-A basing myself on 1-A Creators.
I think 1-A would still be better given how we treat 1-A in comparison to how the standard supposedly dictate how to tho.

But eh, the Tiering System not being the best isn't a secret nor related.
Equating everything to maths is a bad move when there's way easier stuff, but we don't truly use them as much as we make it look anyway.
 
1-A would have been fine if there was strong evidence for the Kingdom of God being inaccessibly above the hierarchy. As it stands there isn't any strong evidence for that aside from vague flowery descriptions, while we have multiple instances of counter evidence for that being the case given beings can reach it from below by the same hierarchy.
 
Why does being unrestricted to a H1-B cosmology grants one 1-A? It's kinda vague and I do believe it's L1-A like Oblivion (Marvel), or am I missing something?
 
Oh damn, must've missed something.

Regardless, I don't think it is 1-A, unless someone can explain why it is 1-A with a vague statement like "unrestricted".
 
Still don't understand why is one layer above High 1-B is low 1-A or even 1-A tbh,technically infinity+1 is still infinity (which is the case for FAA unless I miss sth)
 
Delta333 said:
Still don't understand why is one layer above High 1-B is low 1-A or even 1-A tbh,technically infinity+1 is still infinity (which is the case for FAA unless I miss sth)
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Creators are unrestricted by the whole thing, I assume, at least L1-A because it indicate some sort of transcendence even though it's not much.
 
Delta333 said:
Still don't understand why is one layer above High 1-B is low 1-A or even 1-A tbh,technically infinity+1 is still infinity (which is the case for FAA unless I miss sth)
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Infinity + x = infinity actually only work if you don't treat infinity as a number or defined set, and well, we do the opposite.

Low 1-A seems the minimum given how dudes like Beyonder get that tier.
 
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