When Creators Cry: Answer Arcs (Yes, it's a downgrade)

[Tarang123]

Creator level aren't on a layer since layer=limitation, and since witches can reach up to Creators, they can reach what's below as well.

I mean, I think that would warrant Low 1A, but if 1B characters can reach that position, it’s probably not 1A. I think Low
1A should work for the creator, but that could be for another crt

 

[Alonik]

I'm talking about this sentence, at the end of the bottom right section.

彼女とラムダとフェザリーヌ辺り の、最上層の魔女たちの関係は、結構細かく脳内 設定があったりします。

And more precisely about 最上層の魔女たち that term of "Top Layer(s) Witches", which is different from Featherine juste like how Lambdadelta and Bern are different in that sentence.

Can you link the page?

I never claimed that the City of Book is the top of the Ladder tho..? My point is that the ladder doesn't stop in the witch domain and continue beyond the City of Book as long as there's limitations.

You didn't? Then mb, I thought I've read this in the OP. Also for the following, the ladder stops at the edge of the witch domain, Lambdadelta herself and Bernkastel go anywhere they want through the ladder, and she even talks about how Beatrice was able to go through all the ladder faster than her, that needed to go through with 1000 years and precautions in each step. Also, we literally don't have any proof that the Ladder stretches beyond the Witch Domain, and as I said, it doesn't stop at the City of Book, it stops at the Senate, that is the highest-level of witches in existence, there are no more endeavors above that, therefore the Ladder ends there.

Also why would Erika even talk about Featherine to begin with? Featherine is a Creator sure, but as shown with the quote prior, the Great Witches/"Top Layer(s) Witches" aren't the same thing as Featherine, otherwise Ryushiki07 wouldn't have mentionned them in a thing about the relationship between all these witches.

Erika talks about Featherine because she is the Great Witch in the context of those claims. Also, there isn't even any relation with "Great Witches/Top Layer(s Witches)" which are two quotes that don't even connect, because Erika's quote is literally about something that is far beyond the reach of the City of Book and the Senate. The only thing that is so Far Above in that context is Featherine seeing the entire Witch Domain as a chessboard. Ryukishi didn't mention Erika's context in that line, he just says "Higher layer(s) witches" not "Top", and even so, isn't even related, anyone who has read the novels knows that Erika context is pretty much it is very relative to the preparation of the ground to undertake the show that is Featherine.

And Erika doesn't say "these witches are creators", but that they are "hardly different" from them, aka there's a difference. Featherine being a Creator and not just "hardly different", her sentence referring to her obviously doesn't work.

So we will place Witches like Bernkastel and Lambda hardly different than Featherine in level?

Also saying they are beyond the top of the ladder is essentially saying that they are Creators since we know for fact that they are the only thing above it, which would make absolutely no sense with Erika's sentence for obvious reasons.

Not really, cuz beyond the ladder there are still the depths, and for one to attain Creatorhood they need to cross over and cease to be. The ladder itself has the endpoint as the depths, and still, there is no proof that the same depths exists in the realm where Featherine's chessboard is, I mean, her board is inaccessible for witches as a whole, and even witches that have access to the depths didn't even know her realm when she summoned them there.

 

[Darksmash]

The depths are the same hierarchy as the ladder. Lambda literally talks about how she is taking steps on the ladder and wants Beatrice to reach to her own depths and maybe even beyond her. Said ladder being the one including the removal of restrictions in the same context, restrictions leading to the creator himself.

Maybe we should focus more on what the verse directly tells us instead of vague guesswork. I swear visual novel indexing is just glorified fantheories.

 

[Harith0cell]

Agree with op.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Can you link the page?

You litteraly linked it yourself one comment ago.

You didn't? Then mb, I thought I've read this in the OP. Also for the following, the ladder stops at the edge of the witch domain, Lambdadelta herself and Bernkastel go anywhere they want through the ladder, and she even talks about how Beatrice was able to go through all the ladder faster than her, that needed to go through with 1000 years and precautions in each step. Also, we literally don't have any proof that the Ladder stretches beyond the Witch Domain, and as I said, it doesn't stop at the City of Book, it stops at the Senate, that is the highest-level of witches in existence, there are no more endeavors above that, therefore the Ladder ends there.

Are you sure you really understood what Lambda said? She litteraly lament the fact that she is a coward and still has a long way to go in the ladder

Lambda flat out tells out the ladder only stops with Creatorhood. Anything stopping at witch domain is only part of the headcanon territory.

Erika talks about Featherine because she is the Great Witch in the context of those claims. Also, there isn't even any relation with "Great Witches/Top Layer(s Witches)" which are two quotes that don't even connect, because Erika's quote is literally about something that is far beyond the reach of the City of Book and the Senate. The only thing that is so Far Above in that context is Featherine seeing the entire Witch Domain as a chessboard. Ryukishi didn't mention Erika's context in that line, he just says "Higher layer(s) witches" not "Top", and even so, isn't even related, anyone who has read the novels knows that Erika context is pretty much it is very relative to the preparation of the ground to undertake the show that is Featherine.

So Erika think that "Creators are hardly different from Creators"? Yeah still makes no sense. You can't just use a personnal interpretation and put it as fact over the novel.

[So we will place Witches like Bernkastel and Lambda hardly different than Featherine in level?

The quote isn't about them, so that's irrelevant.

Not really, cuz beyond the ladder there are still the depths, and for one to attain Creatorhood they need to cross over and cease to be. The ladder itself has the endpoint as the depths, and still, there is no proof that the same depths exists in the realm where Featherine's chessboard is, I mean, her board is inaccessible for witches as a whole, and even witches that have access to the depths didn't even know her realm when she summoned them there.

Not what was said in the work.

Nowhere were the depths treated as a somehow hidden part of the Creatorhood process.

The only canon explanation is that end of the ladder = no restrictions = Creator.

I don't see why we would put fan theories over canon for indexing purposes.

 

[Tarang123]

If i may ask can scp 3812 solo both verses?

That's honestly irrelevant to the topic, and unnecessary derailing, but if the downgrades pass, yes

 

[WanderingGecko]

That's honestly irrelevant to the topic, and unnecessary derailing, but if the downgrades pass, yes

mb but thanks for answering

 

[ÆONS]

.

 

[Tarang123]

mb but thanks for answering

Np, I didn't mean to sound toxic. I was just pointing out that it could be done later.

 

[Teezar]

If i may ask can scp 3812 solo both verses?

You shouldn't bring such statements in CRTs especially one that would affect most of a verse.

 

[WanderingGecko]

You shouldn't bring such statements in CRTs especially one that would affect most of a verse.

sorry mb wont do it again

 

[Tarang123]

Bump

 

[Lormac_CC]

We wait on Ultima. This thread is almost done

 

[WanderingGecko]

oh yeah was wondering would The Creator/Creators still get Beyond Dimensional Existance if the dg were to happen ?

 

[Tarang123]

oh yeah was wondering would The Creator/Creators still get Beyond Dimensional Existance if the dg were to happen ?

Yeah they would cause they’re 1A

 

[Antvasima]

@QuasiYuri @Ultima_Reality @Ovy7

Has any progress been made here?

 

[Tarang123]

Uh…not sure if I said this earlier, but I’m neutral and leaning towards agreeing cause yuri seems to make sense

 

[WanderingGecko]

Yeah they would cause they’re 1A

Would they get BDE 1 or 2 ? sorry i havent fully understand the thread

 

[Tarang123]

Would they get BDE 1 or 2 ? sorry i havent fully understand the thread

probably type 2 because the Creator is unbound by any restrictions or whatever. It shouldn't just be type 1. It might be Type 3, but we'll figure that out later.

 

[Orioreeem]

I mean, I think that would warrant Low 1A, but if 1B characters can reach that position, it’s probably not 1A.

Isn't that just reactive evolution?

 

[QuasiYuri]

@QuasiYuri @Ultima_Reality @Ovy7

Has any progress been made here?

Kinda

There's only one true issue left, which is still being discussed.
Tho I didn't see Ultima since my last arguments. Told him that it would be better to continue our debate with the others.

 

[Tarang123]

Isn't that just reactive evolution?

Nah, they're not reacting to anything. They're just rising up the ladder to the Creator

 

[Teezar]

Isn't that just reactive evolution?

I'm not sure it works on teir 1.

 

[Tarang123]

I'm not sure it works on teir 1.

it does, but the way that Umineko does it isn't reactive evolution. They're just rising up the ladder, there isn't much to react to unless I'm missing something

 

[Teezar]

Reactive Evolution can work from maybe teir 3 downwards. I don't remember it working on teirs like teir 2 e.g from 2-C to 2-B though this is derailing.

 

[Tarang123]

Reactive Evolution can work from maybe teir 3 downwards. I don't remember it working on teirs like teir 2 e.g from 2-C to 2-B though this is derailing.

Agreed that it's derailing, but to respond to your comment, Reinhard is a 1B character and he does have reactive evolution or he should, at least.

 

[Teezar]

Bro, this isn't a shinza thread especially I don't know Japanese or anything about the character. Plus him being 1-B has nothing to do with RE.

 

[Tarang123]

Bro, this isn't a shinza thread especially I don't know Japanese or anything about the character. Plus him being 1-B has nothing to do with RE.

I thought you said that reactive evolution doesn't work the same in tier 1, so I was just saying that a tier 1 character can still have reactive evolution, unless I somehow misinterpreted what you were saying.

 

[Zencha9]

it does, but the way that Umineko does it isn't reactive evolution. They're just rising up the ladder, there isn't much to react to unless I'm missing something

Well it would probably be just reactive evolution since accending fast is dangerous and would kill witches so they have to adapt to higher infinites iirc

 

[Tarang123]

Well it would probably be just reactive evolution since accending fast is dangerous and would kill witches so they have to adapt to higher infinites iirc

Wouldn't that just be reactive power level, tho? Not sure if it really qualifies for reactive evolution.

 

[QuasiYuri]

It's Accelerated Developpment and Adaptation rather than Reactive Evolution. Don't we have a Meta Being physiology page with that?

 

[Tarang123]

It's Accelerated Developpment and Adaptation rather than Reactive Evolution. Don't we have a Meta Being physiology page with that?

we do? And yes, accelerated development seems to make some sense

 

[Zencha9]

Wouldn't that just be reactive power level, tho? Not sure if it really qualifies for reactive evolution.

As far as im aware gaining resistance to higher stuff that's normally above your potency is just reactive evolution

 

[Hmesko]

Haven't read through the thread. I tried to read all through the op. But it's longer than I thought. So I took a break. But don't get me wrong. I admire the effort you put op. Now ot. That's very interesting. And I honestly have to admit. The creator not being omnipotent makes sense to me. If you are able to confirm creator is just a title and there are more than one. This would be a great argument against the creator's claimed omnipotence. I honestly agree the creator isn't omnipotent. But don't get me wrong. Am I mistaken? Do you think there being more than one means the creatorS aren't characters? Or Characters of note? You say creator's page should be deleted? Why not just change it to creatorS? Also, do you think Maria became promoted to creator? That's honestly an interesting theory. Were you ever able to support this idea? After reading this I seem to recall. Wasn't it stated towards the end of the manga Beatrice had the potential to be promoted to creator. All these things would support the idea that there are more than one creator and the creators are not omnipotent. But if the other 2 are just unfounded fan Canon. I understand if they cannot be used. My main takeaway. I agree the creator/s is/are not omnipotent. Just incredibly powerful beings compared to the rest we see in umineko.

 

[Tarang123]

Wasn't it stated towards the end of the manga Beatrice had the potential to be promoted to creator

I think it was more that she could rise to Featherine's level, but I could be wrong. Still, it doesn't exactly work cause the whole purpose of the witches' journey to The Creator is to be an aspect of its being, and to essentially become one with its boundlessness. There being multiple creators isn't too contradictory, but it does kinda throw a hole in the scaling when we have Maria who can become a creator, even tho there's only supposed to be one.

Edit: That probably wasn't very coherent, so I'll try summarizing what I mean.

1. There being mentions of character being able to become creators doesn't mean that much as that's the whole purpose to the witches' constant ascension.
2. Maria is a better example as she is able to become a Creator without ascending up the ladder unless I've mistaken something.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Omnipotent in this usage is honestly just peak of all, in which there can be multiple of those as creator is a rank. And the whole rise to featherine's level should refer to the plurality of Creators, given she was stated to be a higher ranked witch then voyager in her true potential.

2. Maria is a better example as she is able to become a Creator without ascending up the ladder unless I've mistaken something.

Not quite, her ability of Magic of Origins (as well as the title) allows her to nonintuitively, through practice and sustaining her talent, to reach the rank of creator. So, it's still ascension, like any regular witch, but her internal factor as a witch of origins inducts her with the specialty to never lose boredom (her sense of self) and crumble into mist.

The reason I guess it'd be considered for ones being able to become a creator is special, is because their potential allows similar success in ascension to that of Featherine or Maria.

 

[Tarang123]

Omnipotent in this usage is honestly just peak of all, in which there can be multiple of those as creator is a rank. And the whole rise to featherine's level should refer to the plurality of Creators, given she was stated to be a higher ranked witch then voyager in her true potential.

Agreed, Omnipotence in general is pretty much just ridiculous hyperbole, at least in fiction.

Not quite, her ability of Magic of Origins (as well as the title) allows her to nonintuitively, through practice and sustaining her talent, to reach the rank of creator. So, it's still ascension, like any regular witch, but her internal factor as a witch of origins inducts her with the specialty to never lose boredom (her sense of self) and crumble into mist.

The reason I guess it'd be considered for ones being able to become a creator is special, is because their potential allows similar success in ascension to that of Featherine or Maria.

that's interesting. I don't quite remember that, but I'm still re-reading Umineko, so my memory is a bit foggy

 

[Teezar]

Haven't read through the thread. I tried to read all through the op. But it's longer than I thought. So I took a break. But don't get me wrong. I admire the effort you put op. Now ot. That's very interesting. And I honestly have to admit. The creator not being omnipotent makes sense to me. If you are able to confirm creator is just a title and there are more than one. This would be a great argument against the creator's claimed omnipotence. I honestly agree the creator isn't omnipotent. But don't get me wrong. Am I mistaken? Do you think there being more than one means the creatorS aren't characters? Or Characters of note? You say creator's page should be deleted? Why not just change it to creatorS? Also, do you think Maria became promoted to creator? That's honestly an interesting theory. Were you ever able to support this idea? After reading this I seem to recall. Wasn't it stated towards the end of the manga Beatrice had the potential to be promoted to creator. All these things would support the idea that there are more than one creator and the creators are not omnipotent. But if the other 2 are just unfounded fan Canon. I understand if they cannot be used. My main takeaway. I agree the creator/s is/are not omnipotent. Just incredibly powerful beings compared to the rest we see in umineko.

I don't even understand what you wrote especially as you keep mentioning omnipotence which isn't even used in scaling.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Omnipotence is the biggest buzzword in fiction. I'm pretty sure even Yhwach was called Omnipotent at one point.

 

[Tarang123]

Omnipotence is the biggest buzzword in fiction. I'm pretty sure even Yhwach was called Omnipotent at one point.

He was, if I'm not mistaken