When Creators Cry: Answer Arcs (Yes, it's a downgrade)

[Hmesko]

@Tarang123 I understood your post thoroughly. Thanks for the detailed explanation.
@Teezar OH. I guess the idea the creator is omnipotent is so prevalent on other sites. And it's been so long since I read umineko myself. I had forgotten the creator was never referred to as omnipotent in the original umineko. Nice catch. Most people also seem to think the singular creator is above featherine while still accepting her author powers and hax. Her being a creator honestly makes more sense with her powers, hax, and what we are shown in the story.
Still making my way through the thread. It's a lot to take in. But it's very interesting to me. I can't recall any of this really having been brought up when I was making my way through umineko. If this thread has taught me anything. It's that we should place greater scrutiny on generally accepted interpretation of stories like this. Especially here the idea that the creator is omnipotent and there is only one. I know I myself fell into the "herd mentality" as it were. Never questioned that before this thread. Now I'll try to place greater emphasis on the original work. Try to question generally held interpretations. Even if I wouldn't before. And cross check it against the original work. But.

You can either see them as formless non existent white dudes or as big nerds doing mangas. Or just as a legal Maria + Featherine.

Given how Ichiban's downgrade going, unlikely.
High 1-A being bad, TLOI would at very best being the same baseline 1-A as them.

What does this mean? What's TLOI and what does he mean by legal Maria + Featherine? That there are only 2 NAMED creators? There can't be only 2 as Featherine was shown conversing with a creator at one point.

 

[Teezar]

I think you should stop mentioning omnipotent in teir or anything and I still don't get you.

I advise it's better to spectate than keep mentioning omnipotence.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Quickly took a look and I see some misconceptions, which I'll clear up later.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

shown conversing with a creator at one point

Nani

 

[Tarang123]

conversing with a creator at one point.

Wait wha-? I don’t remember this. If Featherine is a creator, then there’s two named characters. If not, then there’s one

 

[Birgi126]

There can't be only 2 as Featherine was shown conversing with a creator at one point

She isn’t though. If you are referring to Episode 8 Tea Party, she was talking to herself, if you are referring to anything else, she wasn’t talking to a Creator.
But yes, there is definetly more than just two creators, but nothing is known about them.

 

[Hmesko]

@Guardian_Doge @Tarang123 @Birgi126 Sorry guys. It was my faulty memory. I don't know why I remembered a white outline being there.. But I went back to episode 8 and it wasn't there.

 

[QuasiYuri]

So, the tl;dr regarding Creators is:

-There are a lot of them, just like how there are ton of Voyagers and Territory.
However it is meaningless to keep them as a bunch of guys instead of just referencing the notable individuals like we do for the others.

-Maria is "destined" to become a Creator, given her talent. Not only that, but she would become the strongest one because of her inability to get bored, unlike the others who are boring creatures like Feath.

-Beatrice just has a potential starting to get near Feath's level.

 

[Ovy7]

Btw, Creators were actually called omnipotent in the raw text of Lambda's story, but the translation for some reason removed that line IIRC.

 

[Tarang123]

Btw, Creators were actually called omnipotent in the raw text of Lambda's story, but the translation for some reason removed that line IIRC.

That’s kinda weird, but they’re called omnipotent a few other times, but even then it’s not something to dwell on too much

 

[QuasiYuri]

Btw, Creators were actually called omnipotent in the raw text of Lambda's story, but the translation for some reason removed that line IIRC.

Did they? I remember them being called omnipotent or almighty in both.

 

[Teezar]

Omnipotence doesn't still add anything to teirs though.

 

[Tarang123]

Omnipotence doesn't still add anything to teirs though.

It doesn't, but I believe it does have something to do with The Creator keeping its page or not. Then again, it could just be derailing.

 

[Ovy7]

Did they? I remember them being called omnipotent or almighty in both.

I think some translations still have it, while others don't. Like, IIRC the transcript on the 07th wiki has it, but the VN translation doesn't (I say this because I while ago I was trying to find that line in the VN on the yt video for Diary, but it isn't there. I needed to check the script and see that said translation ommited it).

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Ovy7.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think some translations still have it, while others don't. Like, IIRC the transcript on the 07th wiki has it, but the VN translation doesn't (I say this because I while ago I was trying to find that line in the VN on the yt video for Diary, but it isn't there. I needed to check the script and see that said translation ommited it).

Looks like Lambda memoirs is cursed with questionnable translations.

 

[Chasekilleen]

I apologise for butting in. But I was wondering if there's the raw to maybe clear some ambiguity??
I was going to read Umineko, but uhh unfortunately I have a lot backlogs of moege (eroge comes first) piling up and to read Umineko you must have commitment to sit through it xD

 

[Hasty12345]

(eroge comes first)

W so huge got the whole fam here to witness it.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I apologise for butting in. But I was wondering if there's the raw to maybe clear some ambiguity??
I was going to read Umineko, but uhh unfortunately I have a lot backlogs of moege (eroge comes first) piling up and to read Umineko you must have commitment to sit through it xD

It is linked in the OP yes

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It's been a while, and I imagine Yuri has to leave the wiki already, so, may as well:

There's only one true issue left, which is still being discussed.

Pretty much the above, yeah. To summarize it, Yuri and I, as far as I see, anyway, ended up agreeing that the Witches do have abstract forms existing independently of their usual, "physical" selves, and that these forms deserve to be highlighted as a key in the profiles.

My reasoning for this basically draws from how Umineko defines a "Witch" as being an entity above humans, created as an "embelishment" of a natural phenomenon that is ultimately neutral, dull and indifferent to either viewpoint one chooses to adopt regarding it ("In other words, Beatrice isn't the name of a person, it is the name of a phenomenon"), hence the statement that mysteries and riddles are the only "holes" where they can possibly exist. The primary example of that being Beatrice, who is frequently described as an embodiment of her own gameboard's rules and environment, which when exposed, would cause her whole world to collapse, like we see at the end of Episode 3.

So, applying the same principle to the Voyagers, that'd mean their identities refer to the phenomenon which they embody as much as they refer to the characters that we actually see in the story proper, and moreover that they sustain the world of illusions and possibilities that is the Sea of Fragments as a whole, much like Beatrice herself sustains her own personal gameboard, which represents only the illusions and possibilities that strictly relate to Rokkenjima and the massacre that occured there.

Note, also, that Beatrice is never really referred to as being special in that regard, and further down the line, we meet Piece, who outright describes herself as being an entity whose esistence is similar to the pillar supporting the world: That is, if said pillar is a great candle lit by Featherine's energy, then she is a another candle of a similar degree, but whose flames are completely separate from those of the pillar:

"私は、尊厳なる観劇と戯曲と傍観の魔女であらせられる、大アウローラ卿よりカケラを預かる使者として生み出されました。大アウローラ卿が、世界を支える柱という偉大なる蝋燭に灯る炎であるならば、私はこの程度の蝋燭なれど、大アウローラ卿の炎より火を分けられた、分祀されし存在なのでピス。" ⇨ "I was brought into existence as a emissary to take care of the pieces sent by the Great Lady Aurora, the majestic Witch of Theatergoing, Drama, and Spectating. If Lady Aurora is the flame that ignites the great candle, the mainstay of the world, then i am a enshrined being, a candle of that degree, whose was given fire from the flame of the Lady Aurora."

So, given all that, I still firmly hold onto my previous stance.

The only thing we seem to disagree on, so far, is on the subject of the "third domain," but that seems to have moreso to do with the issue of how it would fit into the cosmology that Lambdadelta describes in her memoirs. I, for one, can entertain the possibility that it's beyond the ladder she describes, but that'd probably lead to a notably messy arrangement of the cosmology that the author most likely didn't intend, given how neatly arranged what he does formulate is. So, in regards to tiering, I'm largely neutral, though I think Yuri could elaborate more on what we discussed.

I have some new things that I've been wanting to bring up for a while, though: For one, we currently deem the World of the Creators to be beyond the Depths of Oblivion and the furthest possible point of the cosmology; that contradicts Featherine stating that even Gods can potentially give in to the poison of boredom and stop thinking, and die as a result of that, which in Umineko means sinking back into the depths. The interview with Ryukishi that Yuri posted in the OP corroborates this, as well, since it states that, a long time ago, Featherine died, and then returned "as a writer" (i.e a Creator)

A: In the tips of Ep6, it was said that Featherine "constantly repeats a cycle of life and death." When Featherine herself was a piece, she realized that she was a character being written by someone, and what she had believed to be free will was being written by someone else. That's why she died. But she came back as a writer herself and found true free will by drawing herself in her own work, without shame or embarrassment. She may now be in a world of relay manga. She may exist in a world where she writes her own characters, but other characters are written by several writers.

So, in my view, there's precedent for us to not really consider the World of the Creators to the above the Depths of Oblivion, though I admit you can poke holes in this, too, what with Voyagers being able to access the latter and yet being terrified of ever reaching the former and Bernkastel being able to travel even through the deepest parts of Oblivion and yet being completely lost after being drawn into Featherine's Study.

 

[Darksmash]

Comparing Beatrice's case to the voyagers is a flawed equivalency, considering:
1) Beatrice isn't a Voyager. Territory Lords and Voyagers are quite different.
2) The "phenomenon" were literally just ambiguous events that could be attributed as the work of a witch. They have no connection to generalised concepts like miracles or certainty.

There are also other greater issues like the Voyagers still climbing the ladder.

Oblivion's position in the cosmology is extremely ambiguous and should just be ignored for the most part. For example, if you take what happened in EP 8 at face value then Bern and her cats toss Ange's dead body into the sea of nothingness directly from a cliff in the City of Books and say that eventually she will reach the depths of Oblivion while floating like that.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The "phenomenon" were literally just ambiguous events that could be attributed as the work of a witch. They have no connection to generalised concepts like miracles or certainty.

They do. The very explanation of Lambda's Magic of Certainty in Tsubasa already invokes Featherine's explanation of the concept of a witch, namely how Bern specifically points out that her "magic" is meaningless because anyone who works so hard in order to make their efforts come true will most likely end up realizing them on their own, with or without help from a higher being, and Lambda defining her blessings as being simply "guarantees" that a person's efforts will bear fruit lends into that theme as well.

The distinction between how Takano's desire to become a God is presented in Higurashi and how it is presented in Umineko also serves that same philosophy. In Higurashi proper, it is framed as being just Takano finding the resolve to fulfill her wishes and deciding to work hard to reach them, while in Umineko, it is presented as her having received the blessing of a Witch. The former environment, in this case, would be what Lambda is the embellishment of.

And, as shown above, Dlanor's comment on the nature of Witches makes it very clear that this nature applies to all them, and not just to Territory Lords like Beatrice, so it shouldn't be too hard to couple it with the rest.

There are also other greater issues like the Voyagers still climbing the ladder.

Doesn't really matter. The abstraction behind a witch could exist independently of the physical form regardless.

Oblivion's position in the cosmology is extremely ambiguous and should just be ignored for the most part. For example, if you take what happened in EP 8 at face value then Bern and her cats toss Ange's dead body into the sea of nothingness directly from a cliff in the City of Books and say that eventually she will reach the depths of Oblivion while floating like that.

I don't think ignoring it is very helpful, given how it actually affects the tiering and scale of major abilities that the characters have. The Truths and the range of the Voyagers come to mind.

 

[Darksmash]

They do. The very explanation of Lambda's Magic of Certainty in Tsubasa already invokes Featherine's explanation of the concept of a witch, namely how Bern specifically points out that her "magic" is meaningless because anyone who works so hard in order to make their efforts come true will most likely end up realizing them on their own, with or without help from a higher being, and Lambda defining her blessings as being simply "guarantees" that a person's efforts will bear fruit lends into that theme as well.

Can you elaborate a little more on how that relates to Beatrice being defined as referring to ambiguous events which can be attributed to supernatural elements? As far as I am aware Lambda is also said to be an embodiment of hard work. But Hard work as a phenomenon is never attributed to be equal to her existence. Same for certainty.

Doesn't really matter. The abstraction behind a witch could exist independently of the physical form regardless.

Well I guess in the best case scenario it would refer to these concepts on the same plane of existence. Because Voyagers have no reason to lie about their own powers or to be unaware of their own powers.

I don't think ignoring it is very helpful, given how it actually affects the tiering and scale of major abilities that the characters have. The Truths and the range of the Voyagers come to mind.

Their range would just be 1-B since they are still climbing the ladder. Oblivion's ambiguous position in the cosmology shouldn't affect that. Having range any higher than their own position in a cosmology that works on transcendent planes of existence wouldn't really make sense.

Also what was the reason for truths scaling to the depths of Oblivion in potency again?

 

[Darksmash]

Oh and iirc the Kingdom of God was also called the highest plane of existence a witch can reach, so that could be relevant to the Oblivion stuff

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I agree with the downgrade, btw there's a statement that the ladders has a "peak", an end, in my interpretation.

This may not mean anything but I would like to point that out.

 

[Darksmash]

there's a statement that the ladders has a "peak", an end

One of the reasons why I strongly disagree with 1-A creators, but whatever I guess Umineko being at least 1-A is a vsdebating obligation

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

One of the reasons why I strongly disagree with 1-A creators, but whatever I guess Umineko being at least 1-A is a vsdebating obligation

Isn't the creator like, unrestricted by the hierarchy? But I think being unrestricted by a 1-B hierarchy isn't 1-A.

 

[Darksmash]

Isn't the creator like, unrestricted by the hierarchy? But I think being unrestricted by a 1-B hierarchy isn't 1-A.

The peak in your screenshot is referring to the Kingdom of God iirc. Although yea, even if it didn't there isn't enough evidence for 1-A considering the hierarchy itself is about removing restrictions

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

The peak in your screenshot is referring to the Kingdom of God iirc. Although yea, even if it didn't there isn't enough evidence for 1-A considering the hierarchy itself is about removing restrictions

It's actually reffering to Featherine, if we still treat Featherine as not a creator than the hierarchy does have an end.

 

[QuasiYuri]

It's actually reffering to Featherine, if we still treat Featherine as not a creator than the hierarchy does have an end.

We know for a fact that she reached Creator realm.

As a side note: there's stuff I wanna answer but can't do rn, so I'll likely give response to earlier comments later.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

We know for a fact that she reached Creator realm.

As a side note: there's stuff I wanna answer but can't do rn, so I'll likely give response to earlier comments later.

Why isn't she a tier 0 in this wiki then.

Alright.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Can you elaborate a little more on how that relates to Beatrice being defined as referring to ambiguous events which can be attributed to supernatural elements? As far as I am aware Lambda is also said to be an embodiment of hard work. But Hard work as a phenomenon is never attributed to be equal to her existence. Same for certainty.

Because that's the principle which defines the existence of all magic in Umineko, pretty much. It is the act of contextualizing an indifferent phenomenon of the world into a scenario where a higher being is involved, which is why Dlanor says that Witches in general can only live in the blindspots created by mysteries, and by extension why Ryukishi defines the Sea of Fragments as a world of illusions and possibilities, so it doesn't really refer to Beatrice alone, like I said.

The beginning of Tsubasa has Beatrice, Bernkastel and Lambdadelta commenting on the concept, as you can see above, and Takano's resolve illustrates it well because Higurashi and Umineko each depict the two sides of the coin at play: On one end, Takano's efforts came to be because of her own determination, and on the other, they came to be because of Lambdadelta's blessing. The concept is pretty much that either possibility has no bearing on the action of a given action or event, but only on the explanation given to it.

Because Voyagers have no reason to lie about their own powers or to be unaware of their own powers.

I don't understand the point. Can you elaborate on that?

Their range would just be 1-B since they are still climbing the ladder. Oblivion's ambiguous position in the cosmology shouldn't affect that. Having range any higher than their own position in a cosmology that works on transcendent planes of existence wouldn't really make sense.

Oblivion is still defined as the bottom of the ocean that underlies the whole ladder, and the Voyagers' ability to toss stuff even into its deepest parts and then recover it is heavily emphasized treated as a big deal in the times where it is brought up. That's worth noting, I'd say.

Also what was the reason for truths scaling to the depths of Oblivion in potency again?

Because the Depths of Oblivion are where discarded pieces end up once their existences are conceptually denied by the Truths, pretty much. You can see that in the final stretch of Episode 3 that I linked up there.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Because the Depths of Oblivion are where discarded pieces end up once their existences are conceptually denied by the Truths, pretty much. You can see that in the final stretch of Episode 3 that I linked up there.

Yeah, but doesn't that mean that Truth's potency ITself doesn't scales to DoO? It's only range and I don't think Truth by itself scales to DoO.

 

[Darksmash]

Because that's the principle which defines the existence of all magic in Umineko, pretty much. It is the act of contextualizing an indifferent phenomenon of the world into a scenario where a higher being is involved, which is why Dlanor says that Witches in general can only live in the blindspots created by mysteries, and by extension why Ryukishi defines the Sea of Fragments as a world of illusions and possibilities, so it doesn't really refer to Beatrice alone, like I said.

The beginning of Tsubasa has Beatrice, Bernkastel and Lambdadelta commenting on the concept, as you can see above, and Takano's resolve illustrates it well because Higurashi and Umineko each depict the two sides of the coin at play: On one end, Takano's efforts came to be because of her own determination, and on the other, they came to be because of Lambdadelta's blessing. The concept is pretty much that either possibility has no bearing on the action of a given action or event, but only on the explanation given to it.

I think that's a massive stretch. The main reason why magic in Umineko is presented like that is because of it's metaphoric nature, and indifferent phenomenon having the ability to be interpreted both ways is the sole reason why the magic and non magic interpretations both exist. Not to mention it literally applies to magic as a whole, not the particular part of witches embodying concepts. Hence it isn't exactly ideal to make any decisive conclusion about this topic.

I don't understand the point. Can you elaborate on that?

I meant the ladder thing. Their concept forms can't possibly exceed their own plane of existence.

Oblivion is still defined as the bottom of the ocean that underlies the whole ladder

Btw, can I have a scan for this?

and the Voyagers' ability to toss stuff even into its deepest parts and then recover it is heavily emphasized treated as a big deal in the times where it is brought up. That's worth noting, I'd say.

Voyagers even having the ability to freely travel to different gameboards itself is treated as a big deal, so that isn't helpful.

Because the Depths of Oblivion are where discarded pieces end up once their existences are conceptually denied by the Truths, pretty much. You can see that in the final stretch of Episode 3 that I linked up there.

That's just because "dead" things end up in oblivion. Scaling truths to Oblivion would be like scaling the knife of a murderer to afterlife.

 

[Ovy7]

Wait, Ultima posted in this thread? But that's illegal!

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Wait, Ultima posted in this thread? But that's illegal!

Ovy thinking that Ultima would'nt come and yet he's appeared be like:.

 

[Ovy7]

I already knew he'll come here, I'm just acting surprised for the masses.

 

[QuasiYuri]

That's just because "dead" things end up in oblivion. Scaling truths to Oblivion would be like scaling the knife of a murderer to afterlife.

This I 100% agree with. I actually intended to make a second CRT on the subject when I first made it.
Might as well add it to this.

Still on phone till tommorow, so can't made long response stuff.

 

[Tarang123]

That's just because "dead" things end up in oblivion. Scaling truths to Oblivion would be like scaling the knife of a murderer to afterlife.

That's actually something I can somewhat agree with tbh. Besides, I'm not sure if character actually scale to the "places" they BFR others to in the first place. Not sure why they'd scale to the Oblivion when they just send stuff there through denying them.

 

[Delta333]

That's actually something I can somewhat agree with tbh. Besides, I'm not sure if character actually scale to the "places" they BFR others to in the first place. Not sure why they'd scale to the Oblivion when they just send stuff there through denying them.

They shouldn't scale,BFR's potency only scales to beings that it can send afaik (i.e 1-A BFR is sending a 1-A being to different place)