What a Beautiful Revisions (Sharnoth of the Jet Black)

[RM97]

IMO looking at the statements; it sounds more like Type 4 Acausality; Type 5 is like not even 1-A or High 1-A levels of Acausality manipulation can effect you or something along those lines; only Tier 0. But that's being discussed on Remnants of the tiering system; still over my head.

I'm pretty sure that's not the case as type 5 simply requires you to be Transcendental over Causality to the point regular beings/entities cannot even interact with you. Examples being God from Tokyo Babel, Madoka from PMMM, Yogiri's true form from Instant Death, etc.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Yea, none of those guys have type 5 that makes not even "1-A or High 1-A levels of acausality manipulation" unable to affect them.

God (Tokyo Babel) as mentioned, is pretty much a textbook example of what i thought it was, it's stated to transcend causality, and is impossible to be harmed as every time it's harmed, the very causalities of the universe shift, eliminate realities where it took damage.

Yogiri has it from what i remember, for being beyond fate, plot, causality and being unable to be perceived by other acausals.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Should we at least add the ones that are accepted here? Seems like no other people are gonna reply, and the acausality thing won't be resolved any sooner.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Go ahead, acausality is the only issue here, other stuff was accepted.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Done with what's been accepted.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Cool, now we continuing the waiting game for someone to provide input on type 5 acausality.

Guess i might as well try another admin @Elizhaa

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Qliphoth_Bacikal Did you make the changes for Kelpie and Salamander, they should be Small Town level in ap, and their durability should be Unknown, Small Town level against heat attacks.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Ah, I forgot about them lol ^^;

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Also, Resistance to Fear and/or Mind Manipulation for Mary, Charlie, and Moran.

 

[Elizhaa]

I think Type 5 got revised to being limited to characters' cosmology when the 1-A requirement was removed, a while ago; I think besides feats it later changed that type 2 concepts were enough to allow one to interact, and harm being with Acausality 5 which was accepted here by multiple staffs, around two years ago.

Personally, I think without solid context at best a being who embodies a type 2 concept would have type 4 acausality.

If M's full nature is related to being beyond causality, time, and space from additional Type 5 could be fine if similar to entity Y case. Are there more contexts that elaborate the M's transcending causality or is narrative consistent with showing/explaining M's true self-existing transcend causality?

If there are no other contexts, I think Type 4 Acasaulity is more accurate.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

M's nature is the same as Sharnoth, a realm which lacks absolutely anything, no sound, no color, no time etc. That's evidence he has some sort of causality. In addition we have multiple statements of time being meaningless to him, and he predates creation itself, having always existed as the the "Black", and obviously as Sharnoth which is a part of him, has no time, the same can likely be said about causality, that it's meaningless to him.

In addition his nature is stated to be beyond the time, space and causality of several infinite series of universes.

@RM97 Can probably explains this better, since he is the one arguing for it.

Personally i am interested in the other aspects of M's nature, reposted what i said previously

"M's nature is a fantasy, pun intended, on the one hand he is a a concept which makes up the world, while also transcending it, and on the other he is the king of a race of non-existent beings, said race were dreamt up by humans, and went extinct due to the light of civilization, but not M, cause obviously he has existed long before humans or even creation itself.

He is a concept, but said concept apparently doesn't exist? Darkness you would think exists, but Sharnoth which is an extension of him doesn't, but Sharnoth is said to be infinite darkness, so does that mean that darkness doesn't exist? I mean Sharnoth is said to have nothing, yet everything. Nobody is there in Sharnoth yet everybody is there.

Then there is the whole thing of Green Stones which can affect nonexistent beings, not being able to affect him."

Sharnoth a part of him, has nothing, yet has everything, nobody is in Sharnoth, yet everybody is there. M is stated to be incomparable to the Old Ones, who are type 1 non-existent beings, and in addition Green Stones which can affect non-existent beings, don't affect him, though you can probably chalk that up to him being a type 2 concept i guess.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Bumping this again.

Basically to summarize above:

• M/Black King/Nyarlathotep is the same as Sharnoth, an eternal infinite realm of Black/Darkness which lacks no sound, color, time, etc.
• Time means nothing to him and he predates the universe's creation along with existing above the time, space, and causality of several infinitely multi-layered stacked universes that multiply endlessly
• Exists as the Black that makes up part of the universe alongside space and time, making him a "highly conceptual entity" according to a secret society with scholar-class members there.
• Is the King of the Old Ones, a race of fantasy beings dreamt up by humanity that embody nature and are without form; his own existence is even said to be incomparable to them
• Green Stones, a mineral which allows one to harm illusions such as nonexistent beings who embody nature (Old Ones) and those formed out of human thoughts/desires (Meta=Critters), have no effect on him even when he's using a human vessel.

As Celestial said, @RM97 would explain this the best cuz they're the ones who'll argue for this but the above is what we know so far regarding the Black King that M is an aspect of.

 

[Elizhaa]

I guess Acausality type 5 could probably be fine, from the additional contexts.

Sharnoth a part of him, has nothing, yet has everything, nobody is in Sharnoth, yet everybody is there. M is stated to be incomparable to the Old Ones, who are type 1 non-existent beings, and in addition Green Stones which can affect non-existent beings, don't affect him, though you can probably chalk that up to him being a type 2 concept i guess.

• Nonexistence type 2 concept is a possibility if there are more contexts on M's nonexistence; M's case sounds similar to Shar if the nonexistence is more elaborated. True on the type 2 concept aspect; the case could also happen because of a rare type of Type 4 causality or type 5 acausality.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Shar's description sounds exactly like M, M also existed before creation as the darkness/black. Though idk if there is additional context to Shar.

All areas of darkness are under M's control, with M existing as the darkness, one of the 3 traits of the universe along with time and space.

There was also mention about him owning the universe or something like that because the infinite darkness is what contains the planets, galaxies and what not.

Sharnoth's nothingness is just a reflection of M, who is the concept of jet black/darkness, this darkness being something that transcends time, space, causality.

M is the king of the Old Ones, who are non-existent, with his nature being said to be incomparable to them.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

IDK when RM97 will come or what they'll post that hasn't been already said so I'll just do the same listing above but with the links this time just to better show all of M/The Black King's nature.

1. M is a concept that exists as Jet Black, which transcends beyond space, time, and causality of several infinite multiverses
2. M's relation to Sharnoth
3. M's control over all of darkness in the universe, as well as being THE darkness that makes up one of the 3 traits/elements that make up the universe alongside time and space, and which has been there before the universe's creation.
4. This one is in Japanse, but there is a passage in the middle somewhere that talks about the Green Stone thing above wouldn't be able to affect M even when he's in a human form/manifestation.
5. And here we have a passage from one of the novel stories for the book, which has the narrator as the Black King (said story has their name on the chap title), talking about how he, or one of his thousand manifestations, ruled over the Old Ones in ancient time. Of which one of the links mentions about his own existence being incomparable to them.

IDK if there's anything else or if I'm missing any out or just blanking out here, but these are the prominent ones regarding M's nature that we're aware of once again.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

In the scans there, says time doesn't pass in Sharnoth, absolutely nothing passes, M is alone, a lonely king, in an eternal world.

Sharnoth is an infinite, eternal, world of nothing, which continued to be all that due to being a reflection of M, in other words, M is infinite, eternal, nothingness etc, I did agree with type 5 acausality before, but relooking at that, I strongly agree with it now.

About non-existence though, M has so many things going on with his nature, no one has ever reached him, nothing has ever reached his Jet Black, you could take this as evidence of his acausality and not necessarily that he is even more non-existent than the Old Ones.

He is incomparable to the other Old Ones and it goes on to talk about his domain being all areas of darkness and M being a trait of the universe, this is evidence of his abstract status, you could take it as him being incomparable to Old Ones due to his abstract status, and you could say the same about the Green Stones not being able to affect him.

Idk how to take it, cause there is so much going on, but if what's currently on Shar's profile is enough for type 2 non-existence, then i think he should have it.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

i mean if it mentions how causality is nothing to M and he is beyond such concepts within its cosmology along with how sharnoth functions type 5 seems appropriate

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

From what I see on Shar's description, it says the darkness she embodies is also tied to being that of the nothingness which existed prior to the universe's creation. And some other stuff after it but that part sounds about similar to the Black King's description of existing before there was light and all that plus the whole thing about Sharnoth and how its nature reflects M which includes nothing.

DK how else he can possibly get it but there is a possibility for it along with Type 5 Acausality. Still, I'd like to see and hear what RM has to say of this when they get back.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Think we need some input on acausality, and also M's nature? I don't really get what we should give M for being the concept of Jet Black which is beyond time, space, causality, predates creation, yet Sharnoth a part of him doesn't exist yet has everything, nobody is there, but everybody is there?

He is obviously a type 2 concept, and nonexistent, but idk if that stuff makes him like a type 2 nonexistent or if some weird transduality going on.

Don't know shit about the verse, so sorry if I'm intruding, but does he specifically predate all concept, or does he just predate creation?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

All concepts weren't really mentioned, we just know M is a concept who existed before creation as the darkness/jet black/pitch black etc, which are synonyms for him really, then when God said let there be light he disappeared, well obviously he didn't cause he is still around, but think the point was to say he was basically that void, nothingness, darkness etc before creation.

His jet black is something that is said to be a trait of the universe along with time and space, but it's also something that is beyond the time, space, and causality of infinite universes, so his darkness isn't really tied to a single universe either.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Is there absolutely no mention of concept or anything? Is there like any god who makes concepts or smth in the series?

Tbh, I doubt that this is enough for NEP2 tbh. Like, really doubt it. Characters like Shar apparently has some more in-depth shit to it.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

The acausality thing could run into a problem for M here (whatever it may be) if this here on a thread is true.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Doesn't really matter for the moment, as for right i think we can proceed with giving him type 5 acausality, type 2 non-existence seems to be a no.

Acausality is a bonus really considering the fact his abstract nature already makes affecting him hard.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Probably right. Well I can at least see somewhat why Shar may have Type 2 on NEP.

At least he has it as Type 1, and a pretty good one at that which is fine with me.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Btw just a question, but how many multiverses are in this verse? Only 1?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

We don't really know, M destroyed several infinite series of universes, but besides from those we know of the universe where the main series takes place, Karsheel, basically a bad end universe, where everything is screwed, 90% of humanity is dead, the rest got hunted done by machines, Apocalypse? Can't remember how it's called, but it's another universe where things are reversed, the good guys are evil, the evil guys are good.

And then there is the world of history where Edison (the villain of the entire series comes from).

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

The main Steampunk verse, Karsheel, Celaphis (the universe of some guys who were bad are good and vice versa), several of those stacked infinite universes that are multi-layered and multiply endlessly, and the World of History which afaik is our reality or the equivalent of it in Steampunk.

WoG also talked about a kind of machine that’s said to exist in multiple universes (forgot the actual description so I gotta check) which supports Steampunk having some kind of multiverse.

Edit: Found it.

狂える世界機械について【設定メモ】発生の源は《発狂する時空》に由来するが、従属している訳ではない。本来は複数の宇宙に跨がって存在する●●●●装置。神々の鉄人28号。良いも悪いもリモコン次第。でも狂ってる。

 

[Rikimarox2]

So, to put it bluntly, there are an endless amount of 2-A structures?

And based on his page, M has large size 9. I assume that only encompass mere universes, or does he encompass several 2-A structures?

If the latter, then this will be quite useful in VS debates and shit, since no one would be able to affect him without having the proper range to do so.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Not really, there were several 2-A structures, but they got devoured by M's Jet Black. Excluding those 2-A structures that devoured by M, a multiverse seems to exist, but we don't know how big it is.

M encompasses the dark universe, Sharnoth, and there are countless Sharnoth's, so a 2-B structure, however M's Jet Black has devoured several 2-A structures, so you could argue, M is also that size, Jet Black=M.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

@Celestial_Pegasus There might be an answer to that in Sona Nyl's Web Novel that could give Sakurai's Steampunk verse 2-B structure.

Maybe. The way it is there is kinda weird but it can match up with the countless Sharnoth thing but I'd wait until Mangagamer finish their stuff up and we can look over it when it comes out.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Cool, anyway think we can add type 5 acausality and end this revision.

If anything new comes up from Sona Nyl, we can make another thread, though probably won't be necessary since it will just be Edison info, unless we get some new Nyarlathotep info there.

 

[Elizhaa]

Rikimarox2, I mean the case of the existing concept isn't explicitly stated either in Shar's case either; though, it can be implied as well.
Nonexistence can serve as a background for creation show in a case like in Umineko where Oblivion is akin to a transcendental background that holds all of creation. There are also cases like Chaos in MGQ Paradox.

Yes, Type 5 causality seems fine to add.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Edison and M being the same sort of existence, makes it weird to imagine there being 2 voids, before all creation; of the universes, they are from certainty, the entire multiverse though? Doesn't really seem right, cause their should only be 1 void in that case.

Not to mention there is Sonido who is the ruler of the cosmic abyss, the farthest point itself, the end of the world, the end of the causality horizon. She is the queen of existence and nonexistence, and reigns in the realm of nonexistence, where even the existence of all things is not permitted.

She sounds a lot more like that background that holds all creation.

But for all we know M and Edison are indeed the voids before all creation, just of their respective multiverses, the 2 being from different multiverses. I have heard stuff about the steampunck world coming into being cause Edison screwed with the multiverse or something, it's possible, but atm just hearsay.

I will add type 5 acausality now then.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Rikimarox2, I mean the case of the existing concept isn't explicitly stated either in Shar's case either; though, it can be implied as well.
Nonexistence can serve as a background for creation show in a case like in Umineko where Oblivion is akin to a transcendental background that holds all of creation. There are also cases like Chaos in MGQ Paradox.

Yes, Type 5 causality seems fine to add.

I mean, from what I heard, she's the void that predates concepts.

 

[RM97]

My apologies for being absent for so long. Was stuck in some IRL issues, so couldn't come here.

Both Celestial and Qlipoth have already explained about Jet Black's Type 5.

As for Type 2, I don't think there's enough evidence or implications of Jet Black being it.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Type 5 acausality was already applied, think we can close the thread now.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Okay