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What a Beautiful Revisions (Sharnoth of the Jet Black)

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(A.K.A More stuff to add to Sharnoth, mainly one of the God Tiers.)

-Immortality (Type 5 and 9)

The M, otherwise known by some as the Black King, is an Illusion (or Old One). He is an Illusion, metaphysical being/highly conceptual entity who exists as the Black, one of the three elements that makes up the universe alongside time and space.

Even when taking the form of a human, M has no need to breathe and is rather indifferent to all life processes. He isn't even considered as being a living being either as he is not human but a fantasy, and is stated to can't ever die. Time has no meaning for him so he cannot ever age, and, as the Jet Black, he exists beyond that as well as space and causality itself. M, through another one of his names as the "Shadow Builder", was said to have also existed before the universes' creation.

All of this sounds like enough qualifications for Type 1, but it can also be for Type 5 and 9 Immortality. 5 because he isn't considered a living being and also cannot die. 9 is due to being the Black that makes up part of the universe as well as existing before its creation and beyond time and space.

-Possible addition to Enhanced Senses/Add Extrasensory Perception

M should have yet another addition to his Enhanced Senses if not adding Extrasensory Perception to his page.

In the Webnovel of Sharnoth, Mary obtains a “black puppy” in the story and making her way to escape her pursuers with M and Sebas’s help. As M stays behind to hold them off, he notices the puppy but doesn’t think much beyond it. Said "black puppy" is in fact an Old One, a “water spirit” that just so happens to take the form of a “puppy”, an illusory form influenced by the presence of Mary's Golden Eye, yet M looking at it indicates he actually knows what it really looks like and what it really is.

This could either fall under as an addition to M’s enhanced senses or a possible add for Extrasensory Perception for the reason he noticed it and is aware of its true nature.

-Another addition to Non-Physical Interaction

M should have another addition to it for being able to affect Old Ones. To explain what "Old Ones" are, they are incarnations of nature, warm things that once filled the world and are formless entities. They are beings of illusions people dreamt who were once part of their lives in ancient times, most of whom have either disappeared entirely or fallen in a "death-like sleep" due to humanity attaining civilization. Old Ones have been referred to in many names such as "spirits", "faeries", "gods" or "old gods" among them, but are just Old Ones in the end.

For evidence, this is one of the many pages of Sharnoth's Webnovel. For the context of this portion, Mary meets Dagon, a "water spirit" who was deathly afraid of the Black King/M's presence. While this likely could be attributed to M's passive fear aura/presence, Mary notes that Dagon was afraid of M harming it.

As said above, Old Ones come in different names like spirits, faeries, and gods, formless entities thought up by humanity and are incarnations of nature. As Dagon feared being harmed and devoured by M, this implies that M can interact with such entities as the only other way to interact and harm entities like Meta=Critters and Old Ones is through the use of special objects such as a Green Stone yet M doesn't need one to affect them.

Nonexistent Physiology (Type 1)

The Black King/M is the darkness that exists as nothingness in the world of Steampunk.

Sharnoth, an eternal infinite world of darkness the Black King rules, is but an extension of himself. Sharnoth and the Black King are no different. In Sharnoth, the world is without color, sound, and even time itself. Everything is all black, no sound can be heard and time does not exist there, thus nothing passes by there nor does any change occur in humans present in it. The reason for this is that the Black King, who was completely alone in the dark world, felt nothing for many years and thus Sharnoth reflects this due to being an extension of M. It is only when M felt emotions again in a long time since does Sharnoth reflect this change by being bathed in light.

(Link for nature and relation of Sharnoth and M/Black King)

M is also someone that is akin to an illusion who is there yet not there, as Mary described on two occasions. Similarly, '''Baron Münchhausen''', an alternate aspect of the Black King and a persona opposite to The M, can appear as a fantasy in the edge of one's vision similar to Grimm-Grimm of Inganock.

Additionally, M as mentioned earlier is also an Old One. An illusion, a formless metaphysical/conceptual entity that embodies the element of Black that makes up part of the universe alongside time and space, and whose own existence is beyond the scope of other illusions and metaphysical entities like the other Old Ones who are formless incarnations of nature, beings who are not real but merely illusions dreamt up by humanity.

Dream Manipulation
M can show people dreams and even appear inside of them, as he did with Mary when trapping her in an eternal Sharnoth.

Telekinesis
M can remotely move objects from another place, as he influenced the bells of London to ring without anyone there to move it themselves.

Teleportation
M can move and out of his personal suite without having to use the front door.

Resistance to Fire, Wind, Earth, and Water Manipulation
M's Jet Black is unaffected by the elemental powers of Salamander's Fire, Black Dog's Wind, Troll's Earth, and Kelpie's Water.

To briefly explain, the Meta=Critters above each have an element pertaining to that of nature, brought about by their Host's fear of them. In Salamander's case, it is the fear of flames that burns and melts anything. Black Dog's is the fear of wind that tears down anything. Troll's is the fear of the earth that vibrates to crush things down. And Kelpie's the water which crushes and even melts anything.

The effects of the elements, while differing in nature, all have in common with their powers the ability to affect humans, paved roads, and even destroy buildings (Melting in the case of Salamander and Kelpie, crushing in Troll's, and cutting in Black Dog's). Yet M throughout his encounters to devour them has his Jet Black easily defeat them as well as his Jet Black remaining unaffected by them.


Resistance to Fear and/or Mind Manipulation for Mary, Charlie, M and Moran

Mary should have Resistance to Fear and Mind Manipulation, or Fear Inducement in the former’s case. If not, at least resistance to mind manipulation.

Throughout the VN of Sharnoth, Mary has been able to function well enough to still think and even act while being assaulted by the presence of a Meta=Critter, even having her mind not be completely shattered despite being said by M to be very bad for anyone who gets close to one. An event that has repeated (in Sakurai style) several times no less. She has also been capable of being in the presence of M who, through his alternate persona, Baron, can cause various reactions in others like vomiting and fainting just by them being in his mere presence.

Charlotte (Charlie) should at least get resistance to fear inducement as she encountered the Black King in Sharnoth and even stated to not be afraid of him.

M and Moran should also have this as the two were repeatedly shown unaffected in being in a Meta=Critter's presence, with M laughing off to them with no signs of his mind being shattered nor being terrified by it in the slightest.
 
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Mostly fine.

For Teleportation, is it that he is teleporting, or that he is using the darkness in the bathroom? It's possible since he exists wherever darkness is. If the bathroom had the lights on, teleportation would make sense.

For Resistance to Fire, Wind, Earth, and Water Manipulation, is it that he has those resistances, or just that his non-corporeal, conceptual status means they can't affect him? The latter makes sense.

Same thing for Resistance to Fear/Mind Manipulation, if the Green Stones which explicitly can kill Old Ones and other illusions like Meta=Critters, don't work on M, why would illusions like the Meta=Critters be able to do it.
 
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Or maybe he just teleports whenever. I gotta check the scene to make sure.

And ah. Well probably not but I just included them just cuz.

I also forgot to add that thing M does in the Engine Dictionary to the OP.
 
Being omnipresent or nigh-omnipresent, makes getting teleportation pretty hard i think, unless it's directly stated, cause the character could have just been in the location to begin with.
 
Probably that would be the case then if he can just move around casually whenever.

And this is what I mean by the stuff M should also have.

──I see

It's good to know your name
I see. The letter "A"

I fly one of my consciousnesses far away to the traces of Betelgeuse and see who has used My Shadow, My Darkness, My Jet Black

A Critter
The results of using Cracking

Born into the〈World of the Moon King〉according to a Formula derived by a fleeting human being, accompanied by Gold, a〈writhing human〉armed with Shadows as his allies

Interesting

It's no wonder

Just a little
Yes, just one from out of the hundreds of millions

Yes, it's no wonder that you can manipulate my Jet Black

You

More
Show me more

This is confirmed to be the case in the Engine Dictionary's bonus story of A being granted some of M's powers to make another Critter that we know as Howler In Darkness.

In 1908, a tall figure summoned out of his shadow a Replica of the Howler-in-Darkness, which the Black King had given a small portion of his original power to, but when was the last time he helped with anything?
People, will you remember?

So M should have another addition to Cosmic Awareness or whatever that be and another addition to Power Bestowel. Or maybe not to the latter one as this implies A's relation to Nyarlathotep is "special", enough for the Black King to grant him some of his own Jet Black.
 
Eh to the last of the stuff about M's resistances proposal. Although that at least reminds me again to update the Meta=Critter's elemental abilities even if it's not that much, although Salamander and Kelpie are noteworthy since their elements of fire and water can even melt down buildings. DK what tier that would be for them though. Troll's an odd one as while its element is earth, it's really in the form of vibrations like earthquakes.

DK if that needs to be changed or made clear of its element that it controls.
 
I guess? If "melting" equates to incinerating them.

As you might recall, every time Moran shot the Meta=Critters of elements, what comes out of their bodies are the elements they wield. Black Dog's Wind can tear down buildings while Trolls Earth can vibrate buildings to have them be crushed. In the above other two's cases, Salamander and Kelpie's elements enable them to melt down buildings.
 
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The calc is for both incineration and melting, so yea.

Salamander and Kelpie should be upgraded, and thus Mary, Moran and Charlie, idk about the others, nothing really proves they scale.
 
Ah, right right.

They don't scale as they have different means of destroying people and buildings so only those first five you brought up can be upgraded.
 
Actually since it's heat shenanigans again, Salamander and Kelpie would get the weird ratings just like Inganock, they melt buildings cause they get shot and their "blood" flows out. They aren't larger than buildings like Golem, and they only destroy buildings with their heat, so basically their normal ap would be unknown? Along with their durability except against heat attacks.

The others will just stay as they are, Moran wouldn't get upgraded, and Charlie and Marie i don't think tanked any of their attacks did they?

Thinking about, now i am wondering if anything should change besides Kelpie and Salamander.
 
That's actually a good point to bring up there...

Salamander's Flames and Kelpie's Water can melt even buildings down, but I don't ever recall them doing anything else that's physical. Although there is this moment of Jane's Meta=Critter just stomping out a bunch of humans despite having bullets, explosives, and chemical weapons on them which had no effect on it due to its abstract/illusory nature.

Churchill stated he gave his Meta=Critter four women to kill but this could be attributed to it killing it via its Wind. Same for Bram's Meta=Critter.

And nah. Mary just kept running away from all the Meta=Critters she encountered. Charlie never fought one. Moran just shot at them from a distance, and even though this is irrelevant for him, M just overpowered them. So no one really tanked anything because of their own reasons AFAIK.
 
Crushing humans would be like Street level.

Mary and Charlie's durability is just for clashing with each other, with Mary been able to kill Meta=Critters, however which one did she killed specifically? I know she got the sword pretty far into the story, so thinking Kelpie? And does it have statements of being able to kill Meta=Critters
 
Mary's Black Sword enables her to stab Meta=Critters as seen with Troll and Kelpie. She also stabbed and "killed" Banshee, a Meta=Critter that may be related to Charlie because of its "form" resemblance.

I can't say for sure if it can since the only example is Banshee who just let itself be pierced. But Troll and Kelpie were only stabbed and wounded I think until Moran and M finished the job.
 
By crushing humans" do you mean smashing every bone in their body? That's actually a Wall level feat.
 
@Qliphoth_Bacikal I mean it's stated Mary knows it can pierce them, and the Golden Eye makes her a genius, so no reason to doubt that.

So we can scale the sword to Building level, as for piercing Kelpie doesn't grant anything, since it's durability won't be that high cause it melts stuff.

@DarkDragonMedeus Qliphith posted it above, here is the link again. Says it broke apart everything targeting Elly. It's water pressure crushes human bodies, hooves crush ppl, it's hooves dissolve ppl? I assume it's its hooves that does that.
 
Right. Fair enough. It very well could have happened on its own too if Moran and M weren't there but cuz of story and plot, they have to~

And yeah, Kelpie's element is water. Its pressure at times crushes people, at times dissolves them. Methinks it probably behaves like some form of its acid effect, hence the part of it dissolving humans and melting down buildings just like Salamander's fire can melt them as well.
 
It did indeed talk about it's water pressure and dissolving obviously refers to it's water, so yea idk if we should take it crushing ppl as something it does physically, in which case Kelpie and Salamander would just be Unknown physically, with Small Town level ap and heat resistance. Everybody else will be the same.

@DarkDragonMedeus What do you think about the stuff in the op?

@RM97 Wants to make an argument for type 5 acausality for M, so before applying anything we should wait for him.

The argument basically is that M has existed as the black, one of the 3 pillars of the universe, since before creation, and exists beyond time, space and causality, all of which he considers meaningless.

He can make the argument better than me though.
 
Only acausality left to discuss then, now we wait on RM97.

If accepted M would be even harder to affect, he is already a conceptual being, who with this revision is non-existent, and every revision to M just adds on to the opness of Edison who has the exact same abilities plus being all of space-time, and we haven't even gotten the story he appears in released yet.

Still makes me wonder how the heroes will ever deal with Edison, the big bad of the entire series when he is so broken.....
 
The argument for type 5 Acausality is that M's true form uses Avatars and the Darkness of the Universe to interact with beings in the universe as the latter are unable to interact with his true form no matter what. This is one of the main reasons as to why even M (as well as Baron Munchenhausen) exists as M is the original James Moriarty's body gifted to The Black King so he could be able interact with the world which otherwise wouldn't have happened normally.

His true form AKA the Black King/Jet Black predates the Multiverse and stated to transcend all its aspects like Time, Space, Causality, etc. to the point they are completely meaningless to him. Even Sharnoth, a mere aspect of the Black King/Jet Black, completely lacks time and nothing passes over there implying that M is beyond Time.

So IMO, this should be sufficient enough for Type 5 (Predating and Transcending all of Space-Time and Causality and being unable to be interacted with at all) unless the requirements or standards are even higher now.
 
To play devil's advocate here, when has it been said that M uses darkness and avatars cause his true form can't be interacted with? He certainty uses avatars, he definitely used James Moriarty, i re-watched the scene, it was just said James offered up his body to M, nothing was really mentioned about needing James body cause he can't interact with other beings otherwise.

At least not in that final scene of Sharnoth that is. M has always been described as the darkness, pitch black etc and he does have control over all darkness in the universe, with his "Jet Black" being beyond time, space etc.

The line between not able to be interacted with because of acausality and simply cause he is a type 2 concept, also get pretty blurry.

Anyway i think scans will be helpful to any causal observer here, they aren't in the know like we are to accurately judge what's going on.
 
Also, didn't M like...talk to someone in the past in one of the Sharnoth short stories I did a while back? And he didn't have Moriarty's body at the time cuz that dude would have been long dead by the time Sharnoth's main story kicked in.
 
He did, he talked to St. George.

He didn't have Mortiarty's body, he was just pitch black.

Speaking of that, this is said

纏繞著漆黑、他、約莫是因為聲綫類似男性後世才以゛他゛來稱呼著的吧、但事實上那并非人類。非男亦非女、甚至算不算生物這一點都還存疑。黑色。除此以外根本找不到詞匯形容的存在。不、一開始連其存在都值得懷疑、看到其身姿之人大多會懷疑是不是周圍有人在抽鴉片、隨後則會懷疑是否眼睛出現了幻視。
那便是漆黑的、漆黑的、仿若幻影之物。
黑色的怪物。

Clad in Pitch Black, he, or perhaps it is called "he" in a later life because he sounds like a male, was in fact not human. It was neither male nor female, nor was it even a living being. It was Black. There was no other word to describe it. No, even its existence was doubtful at first, and most people who saw it wondered if someone was smoking opium around them, and then wondered if their eyes were hallucinating.
It was a dark, Pitch Black, shadow-like thing.
It was a black monster.-Memory of the Black King

M really shouldn't have gender, should just be inapplicable, has the form of a male or something like that.
 
To play devil's advocate here, when has it been said that M uses darkness and avatars cause his true form can't be interacted with? He certainty uses avatars, he definitely used James Moriarty, i re-watched the scene, it was just said James offered up his body to M, nothing was really mentioned about needing James body cause he can't interact with other beings otherwise.

At least not in that final scene of Sharnoth that is. M has always been described as the darkness, pitch black etc and he does have control over all darkness in the universe, with his "Jet Black" being beyond time, space etc.

The line between not able to be interacted with because of acausality and simply cause he is a type 2 concept, also get pretty blurry.

Anyway i think scans will be helpful to any causal observer here, they aren't in the know like we are to accurately judge what's going on.
The story itself implied that Black King couldn't interact with the Human World normally. If he could, then the whole point of James giving him his body becomes moot because Black King could have just entered the world to interact with humans. Him using darkness of the Universe to interact is shown in Mary's Childhood Epilogue, St. George's Short story, etc. Ofc Darkness of the Universe/Pitch Black here is just an emanation/manifestation of the Black King/Jet Black where the latter exists transcendental to the entire Multiverse and it's Causality. Direct statements aren't needed because based on the given information, it can be inferred that the true form of Jet Black cannot be interacted with normally.

One might ask how Moriarty was able to interact with the Black King in the first place, but it can be justified that Moriarty went to Sharnoth to offer the Jet Black his body aka he interacted with Sharnoth (an aspect of Black King) instead of interacting with the true form of the Black King.

Also speaking of concept, Type 2 Concepts or platonic concepts by default have Type 5 Acausality as they are beyond Space, Time, Laws, Causality, etc while being eternal, unchanging, and incapable of being interacted with.

Scans are given in this very thread. If you want me to post scans, then it'll have to wait as I'm not at home with access to my PC and won't be for the next few days.
 
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Also, Black King/Jet Black should get Type 9 Large Size since not only did he encompass and devour an infinite sized Multiverse, but Sharnoth, an aspect of Jet Black, itself houses countless worlds.
 
If the scans are already here, then posting them is unnecessary, as i said i was just playing devil's advocate, i am pretty much in agreement too.

I brought up type 2 concepts cause to me the 2 seemed to overlapped, didn't know where the line would be drawn there when M is a conceptual being that's beyond time, space and causality, so it translating to type 5 acausality does make sense.

M already has type 9 large size.
 
Interesting~

Well I don't mind either way with what M gets. Although I can see Acausality Type 5 being made but IDK either on what line is made to get someone that.
 
M's nature is a fantasy, pun intended, on the one hand he is a a concept which makes up the world, while also transcending it, and on the other he is the king of a race of non-existent beings, said race were dreamt up by humans, and went extinct due to the light of civilization, but not M, cause obviously he has existed long before humans or even creation itself.

He is a concept, but said concept apparently doesn't exist? Darkness you would think exists, but Sharnoth which is an extension of him doesn't, but Sharnoth is said to be infinite darkness, so does that mean that darkness doesn't exist? I mean Sharnoth is said to have nothing, yet everything. Nobody is there in Sharnoth yet everybody is there.

Then there is the whole thing of Green Stones which can affect nonexistent beings, not being able to affect him.

Looking at that you would think he is the concept of something which doesn't even exist, this has to be nonexistence better than the typical type 1.

It's hard to wrap your head around his nature.
 
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this is what happens when you have a nyar running around the world doing whatever he wants

and if having type 2 concept can have acausal type 5 then its prob likely. And yeah green stones do nothing to the dude
 
Think we need some input on acausality, and also M's nature? I don't really get what we should give M for being the concept of Jet Black which is beyond time, space, causality, predates creation, yet Sharnoth a part of him doesn't exist yet has everything, nobody is there, but everybody is there?

He is obviously a type 2 concept, and nonexistent, but idk if that stuff makes him like a type 2 nonexistent or if some weird transduality going on.

@DarkDragonMedeus, @DontTalkDT, @Ultima_Reality Mind helping us out here?
 
IMO looking at the statements; it sounds more like Type 4 Acausality; Type 5 is like not even 1-A or High 1-A levels of Acausality manipulation can effect you or something along those lines; only Tier 0. But that's being discussed on Remnants of the tiering system; still over my head.
 
Don't remember type 5 being that broken, as far as i know type 2 concept manipulation works just fine against it. Transduality and type 2 nonexistence though....

But idk if things have changed and this stuff is over my head too, lets wait on Ultima and DontTalk i guess.
 
Type 5 Acausality not being broken? Well Acausality isn't mean to be broken by itself; just that certain haxes don't work against it. And type 3 is seen as pretty OP against non universal characters. But Type 5 is supposed to be the best of the best.

But anyway, I'll wait for Ultima or DT to clairify.
 
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