We're gonna reach for the stars, hold the Colors: 4-A Base Sonic

[thetechmaster36]

Yes. Sonic's is currently scaled to less than 1/1000th of this.

This realistically doesn't even matter considering:

1. Scaling chains are a thing, where characters can become dozens of times stronger than their previous incarnations from game-to-game.
2. There are much bigger cases of tier jumps like this. Example: Kid Goku. He goes from High 8-C, to High 8-C, possibly 5-C, to 5-C flat-out, and without a single calculable feat to his name for those tiers, as he gets it through powerscaling. Do you know how big the gap between High 8-C and 5-C is? Literally millions upon millions of times between each other, bigger than the gap between 4-C and 4-A. The gap between 4-C and 4-A is smaller than that. Look at the Attack Potency page if you don't believe me.

Yes. No calculable feat in the series is on par with this.

A few of the feats that are calculable are still within Tier 4, so no. Besides that, you do realize that a majority of the feats are done through Tier 2 stuff? Y'know, like reality warping, dimension creation, destroying timelines, etc. etc. You can't use this argument legitimately.

Laser explained the other stuff better than I could, but this sure as hell isn't an outlier.

 

[Elizhaa]

I will be neutral, based on the information.

 

[BlastX]

Just to bring it up, Danny Phantom also has a similar humongous jump from 8-A to 4-A in his Season 1 key, this jump is less egregious.

 

[Theuser789]

Are we going to ignore how the FEB's power was enough that Emerl stopped considering Sonic his master? And that Emerl was boxing with Shadow, and Sonic at the same time?

Actually, this is a really good point. In the start of the game, Sonic makes a link with Emerl by showing it's power, so Eggman uses the FEB to show a power greater than Sonic's to break that link. So the FEB is stronger than Sonic in Battle at the very least.

 

[Omegabronic]

Actually, this is a really good point. In the start of the game, Sonic makes a link with Emerl by showing it's power, so Eggman uses the FEB to show a power greater than Sonic's to break that link. So the FEB is stronger than Sonic in Battle at the very least.

Well, by the end of the fight emerl came back to normal, so sonic put his link back

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah, it’s only pre-Endgame Sonic that’s weaker.

 

[ShakeResounding]

A little concerned that the debate for 4-A to be a flat rating is gonna go at a snail's pace (though I understand, irl stuff should come first). Though @LaserPrecision DDM said he shares Mav's sentiment so they should have the same place in OP.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Actually, this is a really good point. In the start of the game, Sonic makes a link with Emerl by showing it's power, so Eggman uses the FEB to show a power greater than Sonic's to break that link. So the FEB is stronger than Sonic in Battle at the very least.

You may want to read my response to that.

A little concerned that the debate for 4-A to be a flat rating is gonna go at a snail's pace (though I understand, irl stuff should come first). Though @LaserPrecision DDM said he shares Mav's sentiment so they should have the same place in OP.

I believe I did already. I think? I may have made a mistake.

 

[CosmicWreck]

I was going to go with neutral...but the arguments convinced me. As long as Eggman's IDW and Forces' 4-A feats are recorded somewhere I certainly don't mind 4-A Sonic.

Since infinite uses a phantom ruby he should be scaled to the null space making machine considering they both use the same power source.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I was going to go with neutral...but the arguments convinced me. As long as Eggman's IDW and Forces' 4-A feats are recorded somewhere I certainly don't mind 4-A Sonic.

Since infinite uses a phantom ruby he should be scaled to the null space making machine considering they both use the same power source.

Well, Eggman's Phantom Ruby is the real one and is far stronger than Infinite's. Infinite's null space was infinite, but full of infinite nothingness. Eggman altered it to have stars in it with the stronger PR. But yeah, I plan to note the other two feats somewhere.

 

[Alexander]

Eggman altered it to have stars in it with the stronger PR. But yeah, I plan to note the other two feats somewhere.

not,it is just the look of the place,in reality it is a nullspace

 

[JJSliderman]

I always thought Infinite didn’t actually create Null Space and could just warp people to it

 

[LaserPrecision]

not,it is just the look of the place,in reality it is a nullspace

I said it was null space. Eggman simply added Stars to it. This shouldn't be a surprise given Eggman said that the Phantom Ruby "cooked up" Null Space. So being able to make alterations to it seems highly feasible.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I always thought Infinite didn’t actually create Null Space and could just warp people to it

Well in the English and JP version of the game, Eggman stated it was created by the Phantom Ruby. Given Infinite can summon it, I assume he had created it given he has a PR.

 

[Alexander]

I said it was null space. Eggman simply added Stars to it. This shouldn't be a surprise given Eggman said that the Phantom Ruby "cooked up" Null Space. So being able to make alterations to it seems highly feasible.

still gonna mean it is endless?

 

[LaserPrecision]

still gonna mean it is endless?

Yeah, you could say it's still endless. Though given Eggman has free range over the dimension and can shape it to be whatever he wants, it could also be finite if he wished.

 

[Alexander]

Yeah, you could say it's still endless. Though given Eggman has free range over the dimension and can shape it to be whatever he wants, it could also be finite if he wished.

but i don't think it is

 

[LaserPrecision]

but i don't think it is

Which is fine. Baseline is tho that it's at least 4-A given all the stars in the background thus why it's being used as supportive evidence here.

 

[That_moron2]

Well, by the end of the fight emerl came back to normal, so sonic put his link back

And the safe switch comes back into play.

 

[Theuser789]

You may want to read my response to that.

Your response was just "Sonic could have just grown stronger" which is weak, since the FEB was made to explicit break his link, which wasn't broken at any point in the game against anyone. If the AD was so crazy the link would've been broken every fight as the characters grew stronger

 

[Theuser789]

This is only a counter argument to Battle Sonic being 4-A, tho

 

[LaserPrecision]

Your response was just "Sonic could have just grown stronger" which is weak, since the FEB was made to explicit break his link, which wasn't broken at any point in the game against anyone. If the AD was so crazy the link would've been broken every fight as the characters grew stronger

That isn't weak at all. Sonic is noted to canonically grow stronger every second. His AD is evidently not linear or exponential. It's random and can be a massive or small increase to his statistics. To act like it's some consistent growth that either always has to be massive or minor is far from honest. You also ignored the several other substitutions I provided aside from AD. Such as off-screen training, holding back, or a combination of all of the factors. Not to mention, you baselessly assume the AD was the massive throughout the whole game, when it could've simply spiked when Sonic was confronted by someone massively stronger than him, causing his growth to spike. This is a similar case to Generations where Classic simply being around Modern shot him up several tiers in both Speed and AP.

The issue isn't the evidence, the issue is your own incredulity.

 

[LaserPrecision]

And the safe switch comes back into play.

The safe switch was never said to affect the personality of Emerl. Only cause him to destroy himself, which was happening since he first lost control, as Shadow stated that is what causes it.

 

[BlastX]

Also, it's been said in a conversation with Sonic and Rouge that his AD spikes when he has something to protect or he is motivated.

In that fight he needed to give it his all because it was death for all his friends and the world while also needing to stop Emerl from his insanity, he was more motivated than ever.

 

[That_moron2]

1. I find a large jump being a weak reason for something being an outlier in most cases. Look at Dragon Ball. But let's ignore that, it's an entirely different series with different circumstances. Sonic is currently scaled to less than a thousandth of this value, but lacks any major anti-feats (Well, the anti-feats he DOES have places him far lower than his current rating anyway), has feats of a greater level later on. It's funny, it's an outlier because most of Sonic's feats/scaling is of a higher tier later on (Tier 2 Base has merit).

Fair enough.

Eggman is shown to build a dimension that contains stars

Wasn't that a digital world?

filling Null Space with innumerable stars and nebula's (either that or galaxies)

Those seem to be affects to me. Even if they aren't the phantom ruby doesn't actually have the power to materialize things.

nd used the Wisps as a power source for numerous inventions, notably the Nega-Wisp Armor which channeled the power of many Wisps which was shown to create a Black Hole calculated at Solar System level.

Though Sonic was regaining the Wisp powers through out the fight.

And as most know, could defeat Erazor Djinn who was absorbing the stories of the Arabian Nights which was shown to contain stars within them (Though others would argue this to be Tier 2 I suppose).

Oh my god. Not this again. The statement of him destroying them was from like a spanish guide iirc(I have horrible memory).

4. I already explained this. Sonic either held back (He does this numerous times in the game too. He even stated that after having collected 6-7 Emeralds, and copying the data of Sonic's friends after beating them that he was barely trying and still needed improvement), trained (Which he does through a good portion of the game), or his accelerated development which allows him to catch up to someone significantly stronger than him by doing nothing but being tortured for 6 months, then beat him, and become strong enough to beat someone far stronger than him mere moments into engaging with them. Nothing is "broken". Sonic being the strongest even seems supported with him being the one suggested to fight Emerl, with Shadow stating that Sonic should go as opposed to going himself (It doesn't help that Shadow loses to Sonic several times throughout the game, and stated he knew Shadow wouldn't be strong enough to give Emerl a good challenge).

6 months. And who told you the robot was far stronger than Infinite, not to mention that he had the help of Classic Sonic, and the Rookie. Sonic is shown on par with his friends throughout the rest of the series.

 

[That_moron2]

In that fight he needed to give it his all because it was death for all his friends and the world while also needing to stop Emerl from his insanity, he was more motivated than ever.

Than that would be an at most. I'm fine with a possibly rating.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Wasn't that a digital world?

No. But Eggman COULD see inside of it with a VR headset, but only because he had robots inside that he could see through.

Those seem to be affects to me. Even if they aren't the phantom ruby doesn't actually have the power to materialize things.

It certainly does. Something like Null Space in specific is an actual dimension cooked up to be inescapable by Eggman. Not to mention, creating these constructs based on their size and power actually requires raw energy from the Phantom Ruby (As stated when explaining how Infinite created the clones). Just like the clones that are as formidable as the original due to the energy imbued within them, the same would apply to the expanse of Null Space filled with stars.

Though Sonic was regaining the Wisp powers through out the fight.

Not really important given even before he started knocking only a few of many Wisps out of the Nega Wisp Armor he could still tank attacks from Eggman that used so much Wisp Energy he had to suck up many more Wisps (It's hard to see, but if you watch Eggman using his vacuum in the boss fight, you can actually see a bunch of Wisps being pulled in).

Oh my god. Not this again. The statement of him destroying them was from like a spanish guide iirc(I have horrible memory).

What? No. In the English translation of the game it's stated that Erazor was destroying stories from the world and absorbing them within himself. With the skies being full of stars visually as opposed to some statement. I didn't even know Secret Rings had a Spanish guide (Tho that is interesting, could you link it to me if you find it?).

6 months. And who told you the robot was far stronger than Infinite, not to mention that he had the help of Classic Sonic, and the Rookie. Sonic is shown on par with his friends throughout the rest of the series.

Eggman quite literally stated it was stronger than Infinite. It was also stated in the English and JP script that Eggman was creating thousands of clones of Infinite and the Encyclospeedia states that Infinite and the Phantom Ruby prototype were absorbed into Eggman's mech which used the real one. So yeah, it's definitely way stronger.

Than that would be an at most. I'm fine with a possibly rating.

That wouldn't be an at most. It means Sonic grew strong enough through AD to fight Emerl because the whole world depended on it. It's not some temporary amp. It's a permanent increase. Nor is a "possibly" rating warranted given all the evidence that suggests a concrete rating.

 

[JJSliderman]

Well in the English and JP version of the game, Eggman stated it was created by the Phantom Ruby. Given Infinite can summon it, I assume he had created it given he has a PR.

Infinite’s Ruby was a prototype offshoot of the original, wouldn’t be a surprise if Eggman added the capability of warping into the dimension his master Ruby created.

Erazor’s thing is also text manipulation, he’s destroying the Nights as a chain reaction of absorbing the stories.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Infinite’s Ruby was a prototype offshoot of the original, wouldn’t be a surprise if Eggman added the capability of warping into the dimension his master Ruby created.

Erazor’s thing is also text manipulation, he’s destroying the Nights as a chain reaction of absorbing the stories.

Yeah, ig. Tho the original null space I believe was generated by Infinite, and then when Eggman absorbed the prototype, he gained access to all of Infinite's powers.

Wasn't he carving out the stories rather than destroying them from absorbing them? Even so, he was absorbing their power, and Ifrit was able to burn the other half of the stories within the book.

 

[JJSliderman]

Burning the stories is like a chain reaction, I don’t think the words are literally containing the power of galaxies or whatnot inside them.

But I also might have base Sonic downscaling Dark Queen Merlina so ig it’s not too important from my perspective.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Burning the stories is like a chain reaction, I don’t think the words are literally containing the power of galaxies or whatnot inside them.

But I also might have base Sonic downscaling Dark Queen Merlina so ig it’s not too important from my perspective.

Not sure what else they would contain within them. If they didn't give Erazor any power, I don't see why he'd go through the effort of destroying them. While you could argue burning them is a chain reaction, the fire would still need to burn starry skies across stories as a result of Ifrit.

Tier 2 Base Sonic will come some day, mark our words

 

[JJSliderman]

Idk the best way I can describe it is like M&R writing in the book of Park Records, changing the words in the book changes the whole Park but the book itself and it’s words aren’t actually physically powerful. The starry skies and whatnot can just be a byproduct of the text.

 

[Theuser789]

That isn't weak at all. Sonic is noted to canonically grow stronger every second. His AD is evidently not linear or exponential. It's random and can be a massive or small increase to his statistics. To act like it's some consistent growth that either always has to be massive or minor is far from honest. You also ignored the several other substitutions I provided aside from AD. Such as off-screen training, holding back, or a combination of all of the factors. Not to mention, you baselessly assume the AD was the massive throughout the whole game, when it could've simply spiked when Sonic was confronted by someone massively stronger than him, causing his growth to spike. This is a similar case to Generations where Classic simply being around Modern shot him up several tiers in both Speed and AP.

The issue isn't the evidence, the issue is your own incredulity.

That's a big wall of text with no proof. Plus ignored my point that contradicts such growth

 

[LaserPrecision]

That's a big wall of text with no proof. Plus ignored my point that contradicts such growth

That's a short response that ducks everything I said. I addressed your argument, you evidently ignored it.

 

[Theuser789]

That's a short response that ducks everything I said. I addressed your argument, you evidently ignored it.

I didn't “duck” anything. It's just everything you say is literally irrelevant. How Sonic's AD works literally doesn't matter to the point

 

[LaserPrecision]

I didn't “duck” anything. It's just everything you say is literally irrelevant. How Sonic's AD works literally doesn't matter to the point

Your argument was that "It couldn't have been AD, because then everyone else would've broke his link". I addressed that in my comment.

Not to mention, you baselessly assume the AD was the massive throughout the whole game, when it could've simply spiked when Sonic was confronted by someone massively stronger than him, causing his growth to spike. This is a similar case to Generations where Classic simply being around Modern shot him up several tiers in both Speed and AP.

I also mentioned alternatives that could've explained this issue

You also ignored the several other substitutions I provided aside from AD. Such as off-screen training, holding back, or a combination of all of the factors.

 

[Psychomaster35]

This is lookin' pretty based, but I'll stay neutral for now.

 

[BlastX]

Stellar Bump

 

[Hiryu-Z]

I agree

 

[Starter_Pack]

I took a careful read through this whole thread, and particularly with Moron's counterarguments, and the responses to them thereafter.

After a good deal of consideration, I do believe that enough lines up with this line of thinking that, in my personal opinion, I can allow this to proceed, though with the addition of the "likely" due to its somewhat uncertain nature, like DDM and Maverick said before me.