Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,411
- 4,333
Kinda funny how we go from 4-A Supers to now 4-A base forms. I'll be neutral for now but this has some good points
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time has passed broKinda funny how we go from 4-A Supers to now 4-A base forms.
I know. Still funny thoughtime has passed bro
yeah,sonic hurting time eaterMaybe we can upgrade Base Sonic to 2-A via Generations 3DS, who knows
You entirely misunderstood my point. I wasn't saying Emerl could contain the power, but that he ended up being destroyed, not because he couldn't contain the power, but because of the kill switch built into Emerl. And Tails being a genius doesn't make him more reliable by default. Shadow is aware of his history and has a connection to him in the form of Gerald and his diaries. He is quite well informed on the innerworkings of Emerl because of that, making him also a reliable source. My argument is that he would've survived longer had his kill switch not caused him to literally off himself.No. It doesn't indicate that. Even if he did die from the safe switch, Tails still said he couldn't contain it, and Shadow never said that he could contain it either. Tails is also a mega-genius and therefore more reliable.
It completely scales in full to the FEB. At absolute WORST it downscales since it was hurting him. On top of that, he can survive his own punches, with his AP scaling to the FEB as he had copied the FEB's power. At worst, Sonic's durability is 4-A, and he'd then end up with 4-A AP by hurting those who can hurt him.Sonic was supposed to inflict damage on the already unstable Emerl, who as previously established couldn't contain the power, and was being destroyed because of that. So Sonic's a.p in this scene might not even scale to Emerl's durability, which doesn't scale in full to FEB.
Just because their body can't maintain it doesn't mean their durability scales. That's nonsense.If their body can't maintain it their dura doesn't scale, and Sonic never canonically engaged in any punch clashes with Emerl, or anything that would mean his A.P scales.
No, the FEB wasn't destroyed to my knowledge. Nor was the Death Egg which is what supplied the FEB with its power. Nor was Eggman's K.Oed from what I recall. Emerl merely knocked him aside since he was attempting to stop the Final Egg Blaster. Though I should note he wouldn't need to be awake to gather data. He could gather data AFTER Emerl was defeated. It's not like his existence was erased after he died. He'd still have his body there to be examined from which he can gather data.Wasn't the FEB destroyed? Eggman was also K.Oed during that fight so he couldn't have gathered data then.
Will he hype himself up? Sure. He's overconfident. But to dismiss EVERY statement about his own creations is absolutely ridiculous. And Ian Flynn isn't the most reliable source either. He consistently contradicts canon in both IDW and in his own opinion. I would agree with his statement, but only if its used as supportive evidence for what's shown in canon.Eggman is the type of person to hype himself tons without the merit to back it up. And the narrative statements like from Forces were confirmed Hyperbole by Ian Flynn.
If the destructive force of his robot is beyond what he can measure, it's above the FEB full stop. In addition he refers to it as his Ultimate battle weapon.It uses the planet's energy, and the destructive force it produces cannot be measured!
He actually said Eggman can't plan? LMAO, it's literally his entire character. That's actually crazy.Also using Flynn's word to dismiss Eggman is flawed in an off itself, he said Eggman can't plan (which in and of itself is wrong on so many levels) but later on when they brought it up again he apparently had no idea of what he said.
Flynn's words should be taken with a grain of salt unless they match up with what the series shows.
By the way, the reason why it is beyond measurable is because the earth can give energy to a chaos emerald, which has infinite energy.If the destructive force of his robot is beyond what he can measure, it's above the FEB full stop. In addition he refers to it as his Ultimate battle weapon.
It's called his ultimate weapon and has destructive power beyond what he can measure. Keep in mind he built the Death Egg which is the power source for the FEB.
Its his own creations, he understands their capabilities. To say his word about his own creations has no merit is absurd. You can say him believing he will win/defeat Sonic has no merit as he has consistently underestimated Sonic, sure. You could even say he underestimates OTHERS technology (Albeit he doesn't seem to do that, in IDW he can appreciate Tails and Starline's talents, though of course he isn't going to gush about them either). But what he claims about his own machines should hold true as he made it.
He later clarified it's more that Eggman doesn't plan for certain outcomes iirc, as even Issue #50 literally shows Eggman's cunning planning and Ian had a hand in that.He actually said Eggman can't plan? LMAO, it's literally his entire character. That's actually crazy.
He has contingency plans though, it feels it's more he faults him for not being pyschic and not be able to account for Sonic despite the fact Sonic is unfuckingstoppable (then again apparently he believes that Eggman could just carpet bomb Sonic and be done with it despite the fact Eggman already tried that), but it's whatever since he himself forgot he even said that and disagreed with it.He later clarified it's more that Eggman doesn't plan for certain outcomes iirc, as even Issue #50 literally shows Eggman's cunning planning and Ian had a hand in that.
The Gaia Temples give energy to the Chaos Emeralds, not the Earth from what I recall. The Gaia Temples are ancient magical temples built a long time ago by an unknown force.By the way, the reason why it is beyond measurable is because the earth can give energy to a chaos emerald, which has infinite energy.
doctor pickle says this.The Gaia Temples give energy to the Chaos Emeralds, not the Earth from what I recall. The Gaia Temples are ancient magical temples built a long time ago by an unknown force.
doctor pickle says this.
I know Maverick hasn't responded yet, but did you see my reply to their concerns?I suppose my thoughts are the same as Maverick's
Agree since such a major upgrade is definitely going to raise some eyebrows and there needs to be watertight jurisdictions (which I'm still not sold on), for the time being I'll give the upgrade a benefit with a doubt.Since Laser is trying to remove the likely rating and go for a flat one, we should wait on making the thread until a proper conclusion is reached.
Then the details can just be ironed out here after the debating concludesI feel a scaling thread is kind of pointless given that the only thing that changes is that they scale to a much higher rating, everything else remains the same.
Started toying around with what the AP sections would look like because I feel like procrastinating on homework. Not gonna bother to add the scans.
Emerl:
AP: "Multi-Solar System level (Stated to have captured the power of the Final Egg Blaster after it was fired in front of him before going on a rampage)"
Dura: "At most Multi-Solar System level (While he struggled to contain the power of the Final Egg Blaster, it was primarily due to Gerald's contingency for Emerl to destroy himself should he become too powerful. However, Emerl only succumbed to his limits once Sonic harmed him enough to let his overloading power do the rest)"
Gemerl:
"Multi-Solar System level (Gemerl is the direct succession of Emerl, created by Eggman using Emerl's data after his defeat in an attempt to create the ultimate fighting robot, and should thus be superior to its predecessor. Where Emerl had failsafes to cap his power, Gemerl's ability to use and harness the Chaos Emeralds to fight Super Sonic shows this limitation no longer exists)"
Sonic:
(End of) Adventure Era: "Multi-Solar System level (Noted by Rouge to have gotten much stronger. Fought Emerl after he managed to capture the power of the Final Egg Blaster when it fired in front of him, ultimately weakening the Gizoid and allowing the failsafe limit of his power to destroy him. Later fought Gemerl, a creation of Eggman's largely comprised of Emerl's data after it was defeated, and repeatedly destroyed Eggtech machines he was comprised of)"
I figured I'd let you handle the nitty gritty, mainly because I haven't been paying attention to any supportive feats regarding 4-ASeems good, though I would suggest trying to find a way to work in supportive feats since some people were under the impression this was an outlier. Eggman creating Null Space with Stars and Nebulae (or Galaxies, hard to tell) in the background, and him creating a dimension IDW with stars also in the background. Both of which would a least be 4-A structures and shoe that Eggman still has the materials to build and fuel Multi-Solar structures.
Nice. Ill be sure to add the votes when I get to PC. After debating concludes regarding a flat rating, we can talk about scaling and supportive feats. Since I dunno if another thread would be needed for thatI figured I'd let you handle the nitty gritty, mainly because I haven't been paying attention to any supportive feats regarding 4-Abecause I had my doubts that this upgrade would go through.
Oh, and I guess you can slot me into the agree section now. My main gripes were always with how valid Emerl capturing the Final Egg Blaster's power really was, combined with his self-destruction due to it. But after looking at the translations within the thread and just generally paying more attention to context regarding Gerald designing Emerl that way, I... am fine with the upgrade.Feels weird to say that, I've argued against 4-A for years.
the dimension eggman created with the phantom ruby is nullspace,not a random dimension with starsNice. Ill be sure to add the votes when I get to PC. After debating concludes regarding a flat rating, we can talk about scaling and supportive feats. Since I dunno if another thread would be needed for that
Let's go.Are we going fight now or sth?
I wasnt talking about Forces. I was talking about the dimension Eggman made in IDWthe dimension eggman created with the phantom ruby is nullspace,not a random dimension with stars
okI wasnt talking about Forces. I was talking about the dimension Eggman made in IDW
because alot of the feats in sonic are literraly creating realities,scaling chains and alot more.No calculable feat in the series is on par with this.
Him boxing the two at the same time =/= being superior. Easy fix to this is assuming Sonic secretly held back, or simply grew stronger after this (Sonic has AD after all, and it should be really good based on consistent showings). Notice how AFTER their fight, Sonic says his punches are lame, asking him "who taught you to punch?". Also notice how after beating Emerl senseless, Emerl snaps back to normal, overcoming the effect the Final Egg Blaster had on his programming.Are we going to ignore how the FEB's power was enough that Emerl stopped considering Sonic his master? And that Emerl was boxing with Shadow, and Sonic at the same time?
An Outlier on this wiki is defined as:
1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.
Yes. Sonic's is currently scaled to less than 1/1000th of this.
2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.
Yes. No calculable feat in the series is on par with this.
3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier. But if it can be explained by means of some power-up, vulnerability, or limiter, it is likely not. If Superman is wounded by a bullet, it's probably an outlier. But if Superman was under the influence of red sunlight or was previously weakened with Kryptonite, it is not.
Maybe.
4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.
Yes. Emerl can compete with people on Sonic's level before reaching his peak. Sonic being able to kill an Emerl far above the one that battled Shadow along with Tails makes no sense.
5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? Many times an outlier breaks with what has been previously established or shown in a work, creating inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve unless we invalidate one of the two events. If, for example, a character claims not to be able to dodge bullets, even though he was previously seen dodging them explicitly, we are faced with a contradiction where we will probably have to resort to using the more reliable evidence.
No.
The majority of conditions are filled for this being an outlier.