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We're gonna reach for the stars, hold the Colors: 4-A Base Sonic

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That_moron said:
No. It doesn't indicate that. Even if he did die from the safe switch, Tails still said he couldn't contain it, and Shadow never said that he could contain it either. Tails is also a mega-genius and therefore more reliable.
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You entirely misunderstood my point. I wasn't saying Emerl could contain the power, but that he ended up being destroyed, not because he couldn't contain the power, but because of the kill switch built into Emerl. And Tails being a genius doesn't make him more reliable by default. Shadow is aware of his history and has a connection to him in the form of Gerald and his diaries. He is quite well informed on the innerworkings of Emerl because of that, making him also a reliable source. My argument is that he would've survived longer had his kill switch not caused him to literally off himself.
That_moron said:
Sonic was supposed to inflict damage on the already unstable Emerl, who as previously established couldn't contain the power, and was being destroyed because of that. So Sonic's a.p in this scene might not even scale to Emerl's durability, which doesn't scale in full to FEB.
Click to expand...
It completely scales in full to the FEB. At absolute WORST it downscales since it was hurting him. On top of that, he can survive his own punches, with his AP scaling to the FEB as he had copied the FEB's power. At worst, Sonic's durability is 4-A, and he'd then end up with 4-A AP by hurting those who can hurt him.
That_moron said:
If their body can't maintain it their dura doesn't scale, and Sonic never canonically engaged in any punch clashes with Emerl, or anything that would mean his A.P scales.
Click to expand...
Just because their body can't maintain it doesn't mean their durability scales. That's nonsense.

You or I could endure a punch, no doubt. It would hurt, yes, but we could easily handle it. However, if you had a constant pressure on you at all time equivalent to a punch you'd eventually succumb to it and die. Just because you can't endure it indefinitely without eventually succumbing to it doesn't mean you don't scale durability-wise at all. At absolute worst they slightly downscale.
That_moron said:
Wasn't the FEB destroyed? Eggman was also K.Oed during that fight so he couldn't have gathered data then.
Click to expand...
No, the FEB wasn't destroyed to my knowledge. Nor was the Death Egg which is what supplied the FEB with its power. Nor was Eggman's K.Oed from what I recall. Emerl merely knocked him aside since he was attempting to stop the Final Egg Blaster. Though I should note he wouldn't need to be awake to gather data. He could gather data AFTER Emerl was defeated. It's not like his existence was erased after he died. He'd still have his body there to be examined from which he can gather data.
That_moron said:
Eggman is the type of person to hype himself tons without the merit to back it up. And the narrative statements like from Forces were confirmed Hyperbole by Ian Flynn.
Click to expand...
Will he hype himself up? Sure. He's overconfident. But to dismiss EVERY statement about his own creations is absolutely ridiculous. And Ian Flynn isn't the most reliable source either. He consistently contradicts canon in both IDW and in his own opinion. I would agree with his statement, but only if its used as supportive evidence for what's shown in canon.

Anyway, not all of those statements were even FROM Eggman. The Egg Dragoon mech being called the pinnacle of his technology was a narrator statement that can be found in-game. And one statement that can't be ignored is again the Sonic Lost World one:
1.png

2.png

It uses the planet's energy, and the destructive force it produces cannot be measured!
Click to expand...
If the destructive force of his robot is beyond what he can measure, it's above the FEB full stop. In addition he refers to it as his Ultimate battle weapon.

It's called his ultimate weapon and has destructive power beyond what he can measure. Keep in mind he built the Death Egg which is the power source for the FEB.

Its his own creations, he understands their capabilities. To say his word about his own creations has no merit is absurd. You can say him believing he will win/defeat Sonic has no merit as he has consistently underestimated Sonic, sure. You could even say he underestimates OTHERS technology (Albeit he doesn't seem to do that, in IDW he can appreciate Tails and Starline's talents, though of course he isn't going to gush about them either). But what he claims about his own machines should hold true as he made it.
 
Also using Flynn's word to dismiss Eggman is flawed in an off itself, he said Eggman can't plan (which in and of itself is wrong on so many levels) but later on when they brought it up again he apparently had no idea of what he said.

Flynn's words should be taken with a grain of salt unless they match up with what the series shows.
 
BlastX said:
Also using Flynn's word to dismiss Eggman is flawed in an off itself, he said Eggman can't plan (which in and of itself is wrong on so many levels) but later on when they brought it up again he apparently had no idea of what he said.

Flynn's words should be taken with a grain of salt unless they match up with what the series shows.
Click to expand...
He actually said Eggman can't plan? LMAO, it's literally his entire character. That's actually crazy.
 
It would have been less stupid if he said "his plans usually go wrong because sonic always prevents them from going the way he wants" but to say directly "eggman doesn't plan" is literally worse
 
LaserPrecision said:
If the destructive force of his robot is beyond what he can measure, it's above the FEB full stop. In addition he refers to it as his Ultimate battle weapon.

It's called his ultimate weapon and has destructive power beyond what he can measure. Keep in mind he built the Death Egg which is the power source for the FEB.

Its his own creations, he understands their capabilities. To say his word about his own creations has no merit is absurd. You can say him believing he will win/defeat Sonic has no merit as he has consistently underestimated Sonic, sure. You could even say he underestimates OTHERS technology (Albeit he doesn't seem to do that, in IDW he can appreciate Tails and Starline's talents, though of course he isn't going to gush about them either). But what he claims about his own machines should hold true as he made it.
Click to expand...
By the way, the reason why it is beyond measurable is because the earth can give energy to a chaos emerald, which has infinite energy.
 
ShakeResounding said:
He later clarified it's more that Eggman doesn't plan for certain outcomes iirc, as even Issue #50 literally shows Eggman's cunning planning and Ian had a hand in that.
Click to expand...
He has contingency plans though, it feels it's more he faults him for not being pyschic and not be able to account for Sonic despite the fact Sonic is unfuckingstoppable (then again apparently he believes that Eggman could just carpet bomb Sonic and be done with it despite the fact Eggman already tried that), but it's whatever since he himself forgot he even said that and disagreed with it.
 
Alexander said:
By the way, the reason why it is beyond measurable is because the earth can give energy to a chaos emerald, which has infinite energy.
Click to expand...
The Gaia Temples give energy to the Chaos Emeralds, not the Earth from what I recall. The Gaia Temples are ancient magical temples built a long time ago by an unknown force.
 
Alexander said:
doctor pickle says this.
Click to expand...

I always figured the Earth's power referred to the Gaia's power since Gaia in irl legend is like the force of the Earth IIRC with Chip and Dark Gaia being treated as opposite forces of the Earth. I feel it makes sense too given the Gaia Temples pushed Chip to 2-B levels of power to fight Dark Gaia. However, I would like to note that the Earth had 2-B levels of power inside of it anyway because Eggman fired the energy of the Chaos Emeralds into the Earth at the beginning of the game. So I don't find it too surprising that it would have the power after that to refill the Emeralds.

But I'm derailing. I'll stop.
 
Well in the meantime you could lump DDM in the OP with Maverick's vote, meaning we have 3 administrators who agree. I think a separate thread should be made to discuss the scaling, upscaling, and how it affects other pages (like the verse page or my AP blog). Would probably be the most concise if Laser made it as well, but we'll see how he feels about that.

Since Laser is trying to remove the likely rating and go for a flat one, we should wait on making the thread until a proper conclusion is reached.
 
ShakeResounding said:
Since Laser is trying to remove the likely rating and go for a flat one, we should wait on making the thread until a proper conclusion is reached.
Click to expand...
Agree since such a major upgrade is definitely going to raise some eyebrows and there needs to be watertight jurisdictions (which I'm still not sold on), for the time being I'll give the upgrade a benefit with a doubt.
 
I feel a scaling thread is kind of pointless given that the only thing that changes is that they scale to a much higher rating, everything else remains the same.
 
Started toying around with what the AP sections would look like because I feel like procrastinating on homework. Not gonna bother to add the scans.

Emerl:
AP: "Multi-Solar System level (Stated to have captured the power of the Final Egg Blaster after it was fired in front of him before going on a rampage)"
Dura: "At most Multi-Solar System level (While he struggled to contain the power of the Final Egg Blaster, it was primarily due to Gerald's contingency for Emerl to destroy himself should he become too powerful. However, Emerl only succumbed to his limits once Sonic harmed him enough to let his overloading power do the rest)"

Gemerl:
"Multi-Solar System level (Gemerl is the direct succession of Emerl, created by Eggman using Emerl's data after his defeat in an attempt to create the ultimate fighting robot, and should thus be superior to its predecessor. Where Emerl had failsafes to cap his power, Gemerl's ability to use and harness the Chaos Emeralds to fight Super Sonic shows this limitation no longer exists)"

Sonic:

(End of) Adventure Era: "Multi-Solar System level (Noted by Rouge to have gotten much stronger. Fought Emerl after he managed to capture the power of the Final Egg Blaster when it fired in front of him, ultimately weakening the Gizoid and allowing the failsafe limit of his power to destroy him. Later fought Gemerl, a creation of Eggman's largely comprised of Emerl's data after it was defeated, and repeatedly destroyed Eggtech machines he was comprised of)"
 
ShakeResounding said:
Started toying around with what the AP sections would look like because I feel like procrastinating on homework. Not gonna bother to add the scans.

Emerl:
AP: "Multi-Solar System level (Stated to have captured the power of the Final Egg Blaster after it was fired in front of him before going on a rampage)"
Dura: "At most Multi-Solar System level (While he struggled to contain the power of the Final Egg Blaster, it was primarily due to Gerald's contingency for Emerl to destroy himself should he become too powerful. However, Emerl only succumbed to his limits once Sonic harmed him enough to let his overloading power do the rest)"

Gemerl:
"Multi-Solar System level (Gemerl is the direct succession of Emerl, created by Eggman using Emerl's data after his defeat in an attempt to create the ultimate fighting robot, and should thus be superior to its predecessor. Where Emerl had failsafes to cap his power, Gemerl's ability to use and harness the Chaos Emeralds to fight Super Sonic shows this limitation no longer exists)"

Sonic:

(End of) Adventure Era: "Multi-Solar System level (Noted by Rouge to have gotten much stronger. Fought Emerl after he managed to capture the power of the Final Egg Blaster when it fired in front of him, ultimately weakening the Gizoid and allowing the failsafe limit of his power to destroy him. Later fought Gemerl, a creation of Eggman's largely comprised of Emerl's data after it was defeated, and repeatedly destroyed Eggtech machines he was comprised of)"
Click to expand...

Seems good, though I would suggest trying to find a way to work in supportive feats since some people were under the impression this was an outlier. Eggman creating Null Space with Stars and Nebulae (or Galaxies, hard to tell) in the background, and him creating a dimension IDW with stars also in the background. Both of which would a least be 4-A structures and shoe that Eggman still has the materials to build and fuel Multi-Solar structures.
 
LaserPrecision said:
Seems good, though I would suggest trying to find a way to work in supportive feats since some people were under the impression this was an outlier. Eggman creating Null Space with Stars and Nebulae (or Galaxies, hard to tell) in the background, and him creating a dimension IDW with stars also in the background. Both of which would a least be 4-A structures and shoe that Eggman still has the materials to build and fuel Multi-Solar structures.
Click to expand...
I figured I'd let you handle the nitty gritty, mainly because I haven't been paying attention to any supportive feats regarding 4-A because I had my doubts that this upgrade would go through.

Oh, and I guess you can slot me into the agree section now. My main gripes were always with how valid Emerl capturing the Final Egg Blaster's power really was, combined with his self-destruction due to it. But after looking at the translations within the thread and just generally paying more attention to context regarding Gerald designing Emerl that way, I... am fine with the upgrade. Feels weird to say that, I've argued against 4-A for years.
 
ShakeResounding said:
I figured I'd let you handle the nitty gritty, mainly because I haven't been paying attention to any supportive feats regarding 4-A because I had my doubts that this upgrade would go through.

Oh, and I guess you can slot me into the agree section now. My main gripes were always with how valid Emerl capturing the Final Egg Blaster's power really was, combined with his self-destruction due to it. But after looking at the translations within the thread and just generally paying more attention to context regarding Gerald designing Emerl that way, I... am fine with the upgrade. Feels weird to say that, I've argued against 4-A for years.
Click to expand...
Nice. Ill be sure to add the votes when I get to PC. After debating concludes regarding a flat rating, we can talk about scaling and supportive feats. Since I dunno if another thread would be needed for that
 
LaserPrecision said:
Nice. Ill be sure to add the votes when I get to PC. After debating concludes regarding a flat rating, we can talk about scaling and supportive feats. Since I dunno if another thread would be needed for that
Click to expand...
the dimension eggman created with the phantom ruby is nullspace,not a random dimension with stars
 
Are we going to ignore how the FEB's power was enough that Emerl stopped considering Sonic his master? And that Emerl was boxing with Shadow, and Sonic at the same time?
An Outlier on this wiki is defined as:
1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.
Yes. Sonic's is currently scaled to less than 1/1000th of this.
2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.
Yes. No calculable feat in the series is on par with this.
3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier. But if it can be explained by means of some power-up, vulnerability, or limiter, it is likely not. If Superman is wounded by a bullet, it's probably an outlier. But if Superman was under the influence of red sunlight or was previously weakened with Kryptonite, it is not.
Maybe.
4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.
Yes. Emerl can compete with people on Sonic's level before reaching his peak. Sonic being able to kill an Emerl far above the one that battled Shadow along with Tails makes no sense.
5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? Many times an outlier breaks with what has been previously established or shown in a work, creating inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve unless we invalidate one of the two events. If, for example, a character claims not to be able to dodge bullets, even though he was previously seen dodging them explicitly, we are faced with a contradiction where we will probably have to resort to using the more reliable evidence.
No.
The majority of conditions are filled for this being an outlier.
 
That_moron said:
Are we going to ignore how the FEB's power was enough that Emerl stopped considering Sonic his master? And that Emerl was boxing with Shadow, and Sonic at the same time?
Click to expand...
Him boxing the two at the same time =/= being superior. Easy fix to this is assuming Sonic secretly held back, or simply grew stronger after this (Sonic has AD after all, and it should be really good based on consistent showings). Notice how AFTER their fight, Sonic says his punches are lame, asking him "who taught you to punch?". Also notice how after beating Emerl senseless, Emerl snaps back to normal, overcoming the effect the Final Egg Blaster had on his programming.

Sonic either having held back, or jumped in in power through AD (or even just off screen training. Sonic talks about training a LOT in this game. One of the only few games it's mentioned), allowing him to keep up with and overpower Emerl in battle.
That_moron said:
An Outlier on this wiki is defined as:
1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.
Yes. Sonic's is currently scaled to less than 1/1000th of this.
2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.
Yes. No calculable feat in the series is on par with this.
3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier. But if it can be explained by means of some power-up, vulnerability, or limiter, it is likely not. If Superman is wounded by a bullet, it's probably an outlier. But if Superman was under the influence of red sunlight or was previously weakened with Kryptonite, it is not.
Maybe.
4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.
Yes. Emerl can compete with people on Sonic's level before reaching his peak. Sonic being able to kill an Emerl far above the one that battled Shadow along with Tails makes no sense.
5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? Many times an outlier breaks with what has been previously established or shown in a work, creating inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve unless we invalidate one of the two events. If, for example, a character claims not to be able to dodge bullets, even though he was previously seen dodging them explicitly, we are faced with a contradiction where we will probably have to resort to using the more reliable evidence.
Click to expand...
That_moron said:
No.
The majority of conditions are filled for this being an outlier.
Click to expand...

Oh boy, outlier argument. Just as I expected. I already covered this in my earlier comments.

1. I find a large jump being a weak reason for something being an outlier in most cases. Look at Dragon Ball. But let's ignore that, it's an entirely different series with different circumstances. Sonic is currently scaled to less than a thousandth of this value, but lacks any major anti-feats (Well, the anti-feats he DOES have places him far lower than his current rating anyway), has feats of a greater level later on. It's funny, it's an outlier because most of Sonic's feats/scaling is of a higher tier later on (Tier 2 Base has merit).

2. Eggman is shown to build a dimension that contains stars, created an improved version of the Death Egg Robot which could channel the power of the Phantom Ruby, filling Null Space with innumerable stars and nebula's (either that or galaxies), and used the Wisps as a power source for numerous inventions, notably the Nega-Wisp Armor which channeled the power of many Wisps which was shown to create a Black Hole calculated at Solar System level. And as most know, could defeat Erazor Djinn who was absorbing the stories of the Arabian Nights which was shown to contain stars within them (Though others would argue this to be Tier 2 I suppose). Not that I feel the first two matter much. I don't think all tiers/feats need to be close to one another for it to not be an outlier.

3. It is explained, as you acknowledged with a maybe. It was a power-up through Emerl's intricate copying ability that allowed him to capture the power of the Final Egg Blaster. It's not like Emerl just went and blew up constellations without explanation. Eggman created a device specifically to try and link with Emerl. Which requires an absurd amount of power. Emerl copying it, similar to how he copied other weapons on the space ark as proposed by the Gerald Diary entries is a perfect explanation for how Emerl would be able to jump to that tier. With Sonic merely scaling off of Emerl.

4. I already explained this. Sonic either held back (He does this numerous times in the game too. He even stated that after having collected 6-7 Emeralds, and copying the data of Sonic's friends after beating them that he was barely trying and still needed improvement), trained (Which he does through a good portion of the game), or his accelerated development which allows him to catch up to someone significantly stronger than him by doing nothing but being tortured for 6 months, then beat him, and become strong enough to beat someone far stronger than him mere moments into engaging with them. Nothing is "broken". Sonic being the strongest even seems supported with him being the one suggested to fight Emerl, with Shadow stating that Sonic should go as opposed to going himself (It doesn't help that Shadow loses to Sonic several times throughout the game, and stated he knew Shadow wouldn't be strong enough to give Emerl a good challenge).

5. Not an issue, already covered that. And you seem to agree based on the reply.

None of the conditions are fulfilled for this being an outlier. Even being generous and assuming some of them are, most if not an equivalent amount aren't fulfilled and the issue is addressed adequately within the series. Which provides a good explanation for the leap, has stronger characters appear later, and Eggman replicate feats of comparable and greater levels later on.
 
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