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We're gonna reach for the stars, hold the Colors: 4-A Base Sonic

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Starter_Pack said:
I took a careful read through this whole thread, and particularly with Moron's counterarguments, and the responses to them thereafter.

After a good deal of consideration, I do believe that enough lines up with this line of thinking that, in my personal opinion, I can allow this to proceed, though with the addition of the "likely" due to its somewhat uncertain nature, like DDM and Maverick said before me.
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This seems to be approved then.
 
LaserPrecision said:
Explanation:
So as all of you may know, we currently don't accept Emerl scaling to the Final Egg Blaster. I think the reason behind this is fairly flawed, though I can understand where the idea may stem from. It's because Emerl began malfunctioning after having copied the power of the Final Egg Blaster, so I can understand why one may be hesitant to believe Emerl scales to it. However, that's why I'm here.

Counter Argument:
I would first like to note that for some reason, the page is under the impression that Emerl was malfunctioning only after absorbing/copying only a portion/fraction of the FEB's power rather than it being a result of it being its full power. This was never stated, it was only ever stated that Emerl had successfully copied its data and was in pain due to trying to contain the energy of the Final Egg Blaster. Occam's razor would dictate that Emerl copied the full power of the Final Egg Blaster as it is only ever noted that he successfully copied it.

Now to address the malfunctioning bit; As stated by Tails, Emerl had absorbed power beyond his limits, and his body couldn't contain it fully. Because of this, Tails believed that after Sonic beating him in combat, he'd die, likely as a result of his body being in too weak of a shape to contain the energy. But I would like to note that Shadow's comment after Emerl being defeated implies Tails was wrong (The first link in Counter Argument section). He didn't die because his body was in too weak of a state to contain the FEB's power, but because Gerald had programmed Emerl to destroy himself if he ever lost control. Which occurred the moment after he copied the FEB's power. This indicates that Emerl would have been able to live with the copied power of the Final Egg Blaster had it not been for the "safe switch" implemented by Gerald.

However, let's assume that's not the case, and that he would have died either way. This is no basis to not scale Emerl to the FEB. The fact he was able to contain that power and engage in several rounds of combat with Sonic and only died DUE to being weakend by Sonic meant he was momentarily able to contain the power. The issue would be managing it in the long run, which was the issue from the start. I don't think it's right to dismiss someone scaling because they would eventually succumb to their own power.

As an example. Picture someone growing in power uncontrollably. Say after reaching "Galaxy" levels of power, their growth stops as their body is incapable of maintaining that level of power for an extended period of time. While it is true their body would eventually fail, it is also true they are able to use/utilize this power while they are functional. It would simply be listed as "eventually Galaxy level" on the profile, with a note in the weakness section that the user would eventually succumb to the power.

I would say it's fair for Emerl who only ended up being destroyed as a combination of being defeated by Sonic and programming that causes him to off himself to scale to the full yield of the Final Egg Blaster for managing its power for an extended period of time. Especially if the only counter argument towards it is "He didn't absorb the full power" when that was never stated and "He was malfunctioning" when that can simply be noted as a weakness with his power still being reflected accurately within the profile.

However, if that's not satisfactory, Base cast should still scale off of the FEB post Sonic Battle as Eggman goes on to create Gemerl in the very next game. Gemerl is stated to be the Ultimate fighting robot who was made using the data of Emerl that Eggman had gathered after his defeat. Because of this, Gemerl should upscale from Emerl after having copied the power of the Final Egg Blaster as he's both made with his data, and stated to be his Ultimate fighting robot at the time (And should thus scale above the FEB which is one of Eggman's machines and Emerl who mimicked its power). Double so when you consider he wasn't programmed with the same weakness and was able to easily contain power far greater than anything Emerl managed at the end of the game, using the Chaos Emeralds to reach his own version of a Super state (Which scales to Tier 2).

In addition to that, Eggman in later games creates even more mechs and robots that he dubs his strongest invention yet (As well as a narration comment about one of them being the pinnacle of his creations). And given he created the Final Egg Blaster without any outside source such as the Emeralds, should know its power quite well. Especially after visually examining it destroying stars alongside Emerl.

Conclusion
Ultimate Emerl should scale to 4-A via copying the power of the Final Egg Blaster with it being noted on his profile that he simply can't sustain its power indefinitely. As well as a note that if he were to lose control he would destroy himself.

Sonic becomes 4-A for defeating Emerl.

Gemerl and anyone who scales to him and Sonic will be upgraded to 4-A post Sonic Battle/Advance 3.

Agree: 12 (@BlastX, @JJSliderman, @omegabronic, @It_is_i_wyatt, @JED, @Remus1998, @Mephistus, @Maverick_Zero_X [Fine with a likely rating], @LordGriffin1000, @DarkDragonMedeus [Fine with a likely rating], @CosmicWreck, @Starter_Pack [Fine with a likely rating])
Neutral: 9 (@ShakeResounding, @Theuser789, @The_Axiom_of_Virgo, @thetechmaster36, @ShadowWarrior1999, @Gilad_Hyperstar, @TyranoDoom30, @Elizhaa, @Psychomaster35)
Disagree:
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Agreed
 
Iirc now comes the scaling discussion, which I think can be used to help solidify the 4-A rating by gathering relevant scaling scans (such as the statement involving the Egg Dragoon and Super Eggrobo). Which should give me enough time to figure out how to blog this.

As for the blog itself, I believe I'm gonna either make a separate AP section for what values are being used for 4-A or a new table segment. That way we can accurately list Low 4-C/4-C/4-A values without intermingling them nor forgetting to list them.

I've also been debating splitting the Speed and AP into different blogs entirely, but I don't think that's necessary.
 
I feel we gotta wait for Laser to see what he thinks, since he was aiming for a flat rating.
 
Maybe just me, but Id still rather wait for approval of a solid rating. I feel those who chose only a likely rating didnt give a very strong argument as to why. Nor did I get a response after replying to one who voted likely.
 
Ngl I feel it's better to make a separate thread if Laser wants to remove the likely rating.

As of right now, "likely 4-A" has been unanimously accepted by staff. I feel it'll be a waste of time to drag it out further and wait for more staff engagement since there seems to be a lack of interest (thanks to those who showed up tho, you guys rock).
 
I’m kinda 50/50, since Emerl copied the blaster itself and not just the beam, you could argue he copied the speed at which the blaster shot the beam (since Emerl did get a speed amp in his ultimate form in gameplay), but I’m okay disregarding it.
 
Ultimately it doesn't matter, it's just another MFTL+ feat for the pile, which is good, but they already scale to it in Sonic Advance 3 which is the game right after this one.
 
Dont see how that would matter since the purple cannon is in view in the level behind eggman; he sees the energy as it goes out to hit the stars when he's talking to the the fat boi. Not sold on it being a speed amp unless however unless it like incorporated data for his energy projection speed for his attack moves or something as per Tails initial description about Emerl to Sonic, we just have the proof it was the raw power / energy copied.
 
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The_Smashor said:
There is the issue that Emerl would only have experienced the FEB's effects from countless light years away.
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He copied the power of the FEB, not the FEB's blast. Not to mention what Mephistus mentioned. He saw the blast being fired from the canon. I also don't see why he would copy stray energy. That's not what Emerl has shown to do within the game. He copies the origin after watching their move being demonstrated. In this case, they copied the FEB after watching them demonstrate their "move".
 
I've updated my Statistics Blog to include the a section in AP to account for the values following 4-A. I've also adjusted the Speed section from the Spin Dash Amp from prior, so it's fully up to date.

Sonic reaches 4-A+ by Frontiers, 3-C with Phantom Rush, and is > 60 Sextillion x FTL by the end of Sonic Forces.
 
ShakeResounding said:
I've updated my Statistics Blog to include the a section in AP to account for the values following 4-A. I've also adjusted the Speed section from the Spin Dash Amp from prior, so it's fully up to date.

Sonic reaches 4-A+ by Frontiers, 3-C with Phantom Rush, and is > 60 Sextillion x FTL by the end of Sonic Forces.
Click to expand...
This is getting close to archie levels of power bullshit lol
 
Alright, I don't think that Emerl can scale to the FEB directly. He copies techniques, not stats, and we never see him shoot out a Final Egg Blaster kamehameha.

However, logically, even a machine with all seven Chaos Emeralds should be superior to the Final Egg Blaster due to the whole "Eggman still goes after the Emeralds despite being able to make the FEB" thing, so you could scale Ultimate Emerl to the FEB that way.
 
The_Smashor said:
Alright, I don't think that Emerl can scale to the FEB directly. He copies techniques, not stats, and we never see him shoot out a Final Egg Blaster kamehameha.
Click to expand...
The problem being that once Emerl were to pass a certain power threshold, he would begin to self-destruct as per Gerald's coding. Which would imply his strength did indeed increase, as he wasn't at that point prior to the FEB firing.
 
I suppose I've got some time, though I'm on mobile so it'll be a little slow. Afaik only Sonic will need to be unlocked. Also, the relevant scans for Emerl should be added with Imgur albums (or any such scan holding sites) if it can be helped. So we should start with Emerl and we go from there.

Edit: Emerl is locked too, so he'll need to be unlocked.
 
ShakeResounding said:
I suppose I've got some time, though I'm on mobile so it'll be a little slow. Afaik only Sonic will need to be unlocked. Also, the relevant scans for Emerl should be added with Imgur albums (or any such scan holding sites) if it can be helped. So we should start with Emerl and we go from there.

Edit: Emerl is locked too, so he'll need to be unlocked.
Click to expand...
why is Emerl of all chars locked?

edit: read it, relax, same thing happened to me with shadow once lol
 
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