We need to talk about Universal Energy Systems

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Especially with regards to performing said attacks uber-casually.

That too.

 

[KLOL506]

So yeah, I am pretty biased when it comes to this. Anyways, now to the main points.

And the man tells me he's doing it based on accuracy

 

[KatBoi69]

Lovely seeing so many people admit their bias, making their opinions literally worthless.

My comment is based on statistics, not on personal preference.

 

[Urshani]

Or maybe we've never agreed with your scaling ideology as we all believe it is extremely flawed and is a detriment to Vs Battles Wiki as a whole

what is his scaling ideology?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

what is his scaling ideology?

Completely rejecting most UES, Heat Calcs, Cooling Calcs, and Cloud Calcs

 

[KLOL506]

what is his scaling ideology?

Couldn't say, since it seems to not operate on basic common sense or context behind video game events and so on.

 

[KatBoi69]

I'm so sorry for this but I can't help myself

Biased requires UNFAIR prejudice, as per the "google" definition.

OUCH.

 

[Urshani]

Completely rejecting most UES, Heat Calcs, Cooling Calcs, and Cloud Calcs

I disagree with him

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Guys behave

 

[InfiniteSped]

The requirements in that doc don't really work for some cases, like the common physically weak mage trope. Say, Ainz Ooal Gown's physical strikes and durability without shields are far lower than his spells, but he passes all the criteria to qualify. He could use spells to amp him physically, but not really to the point of matching his magical power, unless he uses a specific spell that stops him from casting altogether.

 

[KLOL506]

The requirements in that doc don't really work for some cases, like the common physically weak mage trope. Say, Ainz Ooal Gown's physical strikes and durability without shields are far lower than his spells, but he passes all the criteria to qualify. He could use spells to amp him physically, but not really to the point of matching his magical power, unless he uses a specific spell that stops him from casting altogether.

Well then that's just a case of the verse being like that. Exceptions do exist, and we're not gonna deny them at face value. The guidelines are just for a generalization overall.

Again, they aren't necessarily requirements, but guidelines, you don't need to fulfill all of them to qualify.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Well, saying your bog-standard fantasy wizard physically scales to their fireballs is a pretty hard sell, I don't think this kind of thing is the exception.

 

[KatBoi69]

Well, saying your bog-standard fantasy wizard physically scales to their fireballs is a pretty hard sell, I don't think this kind of thing is the exception.

Ainz isn't bog standard and he exists within a game that has additional restrictions.

That being said, the criteria could use some refinement.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, saying your bog-standard fantasy wizard physically scales to their fireballs is a pretty hard sell, I don't think this kind of thing is the exception.

Prolly has to do something with magic-based energy systems from what DDM's examples show.

every other major universal energy system on the site however, like DMC's Demonic Energy, GoW's Magic-based amping, Naruto's Chakra, Dragon Ball's Ki, One Piece's Haki and prolly several more most likely do not adhere to this restriction.

 

[KLOL506]

That being said, the criteria could use some refinement.

Yes, it does need refinement, though the refinements I stated would be a good place to start.

Remember, these criteria are not meant to be mandatory rules, only to be highly-recommended guidelines.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Prolly has to do something with magic-based energy systems from what DDM's examples show.

every other major universal energy system on the site however, like DMC's Demonic Energy, GoW's Magic-based amping, Naruto's Chakra, Dragon Ball's Ki, One Piece's Haki and prolly several more most likely do not adhere to this restriction.

Also Ether from Xeno and Psynergy from Golden Sun

 

[Theglassman12]

If you can't prove that it's wrong well... you can't prove it wrong. Plain and simple.

Ah yes, because the mere concept of taking a picture or security cameras recording anything that happened in said backyard doesn't exist to prove elephants weren't there. Enough with the false equivalency, if you think the feat does not work whatsoever, you need to prove that it does not scale whatsoever or that it's an outlier. Plain and simple, if not you're pulling a fallacy argument which doesn't help your case whatsoever.

You know antagonizing the opposite is not helping your case by claiming they don't have common sense whatsoever. If you keep that up that will lead you to the RVR,

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Guys behave

This. You may disagree with what they've wrote, but there's no need to over the top.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Prolly has to do something with magic-based energy systems from what DDM's examples show.

every other major universal energy system on the site however, like DMC's Demonic Energy, GoW's Magic-based amping, Naruto's Chakra, Dragon Ball's Ki, One Piece's Haki and prolly several more most likely do not adhere to this restriction.

Well, those are all high-powered verses with more over the top stuff, might have something to do with it. The more grounded ones usually go the other way from what I can tell.

Edit: Or rather, more likely to not have super high physical feats compared to the magic stuff.

 

[Hellbeast]

Lads behave and take the heating cooling stuff off this thread

The requirements in that doc don't really work for some cases, like the common physically weak mage trope. Say, Ainz Ooal Gown's physical strikes and durability without shields are far lower than his spells, but he passes all the criteria to qualify. He could use spells to amp him physically, but not really to the point of matching his magical power, unless he uses a specific spell that stops him from casting altogether.

I mean they’re more broad guidelines rather then hard rules; you can not fill one criteria but then fit others. Him not being as strong as his magic without not casting could just be a similar case to our ultimate attacks thing but I’m unsure

Also should the empowerment point he broadened to include General Amps? Like speed and stamina??

 

[Jasonsith]

Watching.

Wants to speak but likely I am too busy to do so.

 

[Hellbeast]

Yes, it does need refinement, though the refinements I stated would be a good place to start.

Could you dm me the wording on my page?

Remember, these criteria are not meant to be mandatory rules, only to be highly-recommended guidelines.

This; kinda like our light page

 

[KatBoi69]

Yes, it does need refinement, though the refinements I stated would be a good place to start.

Remember, these criteria are not meant to be mandatory rules, only to be highly-recommended guidelines.

Yeah I'm not trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater here. I just think that, as presented, it's not entirely clear what this set of suggestions is trying to get at, and it may be better split into two separate (but totally fine) sets of guidelines.

One set for "what do we consider a UES"

and one set for "when does a UES let any feat in the ES scale to physicals and AP" (or some more elegant title).

 

[KLOL506]

Lads behave and take the heating cooling stuff off this thread

I mean they’re more broad guidelines rather then hard rules; you can not fill one criteria but then fit others. Him not being as strong as his magic without not casting could just be a similar case to our ultimate attacks thing but I’m unsure

Also should the empowerment point he broadened to include General Amps? Like speed and stamina??

Yeah, definitely, this was a given that it shouldn't just be limited to physical strength and must also include other aspects like speed, stamina etc., preferably add more to the fact that in a verse deeply ingrained with a universal energy source where the inhabitants have the innate ability to tap into it to use for offensive and defensive purposes, the said inhabitants should not be barred from scaling to the UES just because they didn't amplify their physical attacks with it.

 

[RatherClueless]

Why even mention it to begin with then? That's exactly what I was telling you.

I didn't mention it, you did.

Also no, you only have a thread for Cooling and Clouds.

Clearly showing you didnt actually read it. That is a topic I tackled several times in the op. Just type ctrl+F end then "Shared Energy System"

Well then you should have posted your so-called "better solutions" when those threads were active, why are you complaining now?

I am not? You brought it up. I dont necessarily like it, but idc. Never said I have better solutions either. Dont strawman me.

Prove it then, like the man said.

Bruh. I mean . . . did you even read what I said? In case you didn't, let me summarize it again:

"It forces you to prove a false negative, which in most cases is impossible due to an absence of evidence, which is why the burden of proof should be on the person making the claim."

You keep this up, we're gonna have to report you.

For what? Seriously, please tell, no, show me what I have done that is report worthy.

If the character has already shown greater consumption of power in his attacks compared to creation, then Attack>Creation.
If such a proof already exist, why would you assume otherwise??

What? If I have a gas tank that is 100% full and I use 10% to power an engine that generates energy worth 10 light bulbs, why would that be better than using 50% to power one? Because thats basically the current logic I am seeing from this.

"The attack consumed more power but had a worse result, thus it is better"

Makes 0 sense to me. Which is why I asked, am I understanding this correctly?

Completely rejecting most UES, Heat Calcs, Cooling Calcs, and Cloud Calcs

I'd call it slander if it wouldnt imply that you have committed a crime. But glad to see you dont know any of my stances. The only accurate thing in here is me rejecting UES. I dont mind heat in the slightest and I dont mind the calculations either. I mind how they are applied and what they are applied for, as that goes completely against the thing that was actually calculated to begin with. Anyways, this isn't the place for this.

Well, saying your bog-standard fantasy wizard physically scales to their fireballs is a pretty hard sell, I don't think this kind of thing is the exception.

I agree. A mage physically scaling to their magic attacks is the outlier, not the rule.

If you can't prove that it's wrong well... you can't prove it wrong. Plain and simple.

Ah yes, because the mere concept of taking a picture or security cameras recording anything that happened in said backyard doesn't exist to prove elephants weren't there. Enough with the false equivalency, if you think the feat does not work whatsoever, you need to prove that it does not scale whatsoever or that it's an outlier. Plain and simple, if not you're pulling a fallacy argument which doesn't help your case whatsoever.

You know antagonizing the opposite is not helping your case by claiming they don't have common sense whatsoever. If you keep that up that will lead you to the RVR,

"BRUH" is all I can muster when it comes to this one.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

What? If I have a gas tank that is 100% full and I use 10% to power an engine that generates energy worth 10 light bulbs, why would that be better than using 50% to power one? Because thats basically the current logic I am seeing from this.

"The attack consumed more power but had a worse result, thus it is better"

Makes 0 sense to me. Which is why I asked, am I understanding this correctly?

Therein lies the problem, your assumption that attack is weak result in the first place.

Why would you assume that?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I agree. A mage physically scaling to their magic attacks is the outlier, not the rule.

I bet a glass canon mage is quite a different situation compared to ki/chakra based fighter or a demonic energy based demon.

You know guys who primarily use energy for throwing hands and firing big ass laserbeams.

 

[RatherClueless]

Therein lies the problem, your assumption that attack is weak result in the first place.

Why would you assume that?

Because why would you scale the attack to the creation otherwise? If you have attacks way above the creation, then whats the point of all of this to begin with?

 

[RatherClueless]

I bet a glass canon mage is quite a different situation compared to ki/chakra based fighter or a demonic energy based demon.

You know guys who primarily use energy for throwing hands and firing big ass laserbeams.

That wasnt argued tho

 

[KLOL506]

I didn't mention it, you did.

Now I'm gonna mention bruh on this because you brought up the "edge of the weapon"

Clearly showing you didnt actually read it. That is a topic I tackled several times in the op. Just type ctrl+F end then "Shared Energy System"

Which is bullshit, because I actually did and I still don't agree with it.

I am not? You brought it up. I dont necessarily like it, but idc. Never said I have better solutions either. Dont strawman me.

Strawman you? You were the one complaining about the damn standard rules.

Bruh. I mean . . . did you even read what I said? In case you didn't, let me summarize it again:

"It forces you to prove a false negative, which in most cases is impossible due to an absence of evidence, which is why the burden of proof should be on the person making the claim."

absence of evidence

literally ignores plot-context

Bruh. Just bruh. Ever heard of OP final game bosses?

For what? Seriously, please tell, no, show me what I have done that is report worthy.

Oh, I don't know, stonewalling arguments, antagonizing people and calling them biased, that sound good for you?

What? If I have a gas tank that is 100% full and I use 10% to power an engine that generates energy worth 10 light bulbs, why would that be better than using 50% to power one? Because thats basically the current logic I am seeing from this.

"The attack consumed more power but had a worse result, thus it is better"

Makes 0 sense to me. Which is why I asked, am I understanding this correctly?

Horrible, horrible analogy to make. We're talking about fashioning continents, planets and universes out of thin air by just flexing and then using the same power in an offensive manner.

I'd call it slander if it wouldnt imply that you have committed a crime. But glad to see you dont know any of my stances. The only accurate thing in here is me rejecting UES. I dont mind heat in the slightest and I dont mind the calculations either. I mind how they are applied and what they are applied for, as that goes completely against the thing that was actually calculated to begin with. Anyways, this isn't the place for this.

Then don't debate them here and keep them for other threads. Also we've already seen what your concerns are regarding UES and they're bunk, honestly.

I agree. A mage physically scaling to their magic attacks is the outlier, not the rule.

Two words: GLASS CANNON

"BRUH" is all I can muster when it comes to this one.

RIGHT BACK AT YOU.

 

[KLOL506]

Because why would you scale the attack to the creation otherwise? If you have attacks way above the creation, then whats the point of all of this to begin with?

To prove that the creation feat is uber-casual and that the attacks are leagues superior? Are we seriously discussing this now in a UES thread? Didn't we tell you to drop it and keep it for the other thread? Assuming it can even make past the rules we made after several months worth of CRTs?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Because why would you scale the attack to the creation otherwise? If you have attacks way above the creation, then whats the point of all of this to begin with?

Bruh momento, talk about reversing burden of proof.

You do realise we need to give ratings based on classifying calcuable feats....

 

[KatBoi69]

I agree. A mage physically scaling to their magic attacks is the outlier, not the rule.

I bet a glass canon mage is quite a different situation compared to ki/chakra based fighter or a demonic energy based demon.

You know guys who primarily use energy for throwing hands and firing big ass laserbeams.

This whole "wizards are frail" trope should be addressed in a case-by-case manner. I think in any case, the lack of scaling will be obvious. The only verse I really worry about this with is dnd and I've been told, off-site, that my worries are unfounded.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

This whole "wizards are frail" trope should be addressed in a case-by-case manner. I think in any case, the lack of scaling will be obvious. The only verse I really worry about this with is dnd and I've been told, off-site, that my worries are unfounded.

Well my response was moreso based on the example of verse already given, that mad skeleton guy or whatever his name is.

 

[KatBoi69]

Well my response was moreso based on the example of verse already given, that mad skeleton guy or whatever his name is.

No worries. I'm speaking generally.

 

[RatherClueless]

Now I'm gonna mention bruh on this because you brought up the "edge of the weapon"

yes and? How does a sword being sharp relate to an energy type (piercing energy) made up by this wiki?

Which is bullshit, because I actually did and I still don't agree with it.

You just said it's not on there, now you say it is but you dont agree. Well, whatever, really.

Oh, I don't know, stonewalling arguments, antagonizing people and calling them biased, that sound good for you?

I said show, dont tell, for a reason.

Then don't debate them here and keep them for other threads. Also we've already seen what your concerns are regarding UES and they're bunk, honestly.

If people keep bringing them up, I'll reply. I dont just ignore ppl. If yall wanna take it to my wall or another thread instead, go for it.

To prove that the creation feat is uber-casual? Are we seriously discussing this now in a UES thread? Didn't we tell you to drop it and keep it for the other thread? Assuming it can even make past the rules we made after several months worth of CRTs?

My last reply on this here. If u wanna continue, bring it to my wall. The more casual the creation feat, the worse it actually is for your argument, since that is the literal backbone of my argument.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Glass wizards aside, there's the issue of combat magic scaling to physicals, which is one thing, and non-combat magic scaling to combat, then physicals, which is a whole 'nother can of worms, like creation feats and such.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

OK, so I re-read the document again and these are my thoughts:


I believe in a setting where everyone has innate access to the universal energy source and can enhance it via training should automatically qualify for getting Empowerment like that, not the other way around where you need to prove the existence of Empowerment to confirm a Universal Energy Source. Naruto and Dragon Ball are very obvious examples (Since both those verses repeatedly hammer down the fact that everyone can use ki/chakra, just that they'll have to train harder if they wanna grow stronger and have their ki/chakra reserves grow more controlled and potent). If anything, it should be a default assumption that in a verse with a tightly-integrated universal energy system people should be readily able to access and harness the UES's energy for their own means, especially for something as simple as enhancing their physical strength.

Them being able to empower their weapons with it is a plus honestly. But it shouldn't be used to leave out people that have innate access to the UES but don't use it to amplify the strength of their bodies because reasons. It should be fine as supporting evidence, however.



Looks fine at a glance.



Now that I look at it, it's kinna restricting. You just need to prove that they can tap into the universal energy source to use for all their attacks, physical, elemental, whatever. That's it. But it should work nicely as supporting evidence if mentioned.



No problems here. You should also add that removal of said power source could also be represented as being able to cause excruciating pain/trauma or cause excess fatigue from which the character could potentially end up dying. So I'm perfectly fine with this.



Seems okay, no problems here, though at some point you can expect these characters to eventually duke out against each other where the commonality of the energy source may become irrelevant and simple powerscaling should more or less even out the odds. Also I agree with the "core underpinning part", that should certainly help out as supporting evidence, that point should take more precedence than the system itself serving as a power source for the characters I believe.



I share the same concerns as DDM and Axx regarding this. If the Totem serves as a universal energy source for the entire verse, then it is fine for it to fall under the normal universal energy source guidelines



Not sure if I agree with this, just because it is a storm or creation feat or somesuch doesn't mean it suddenly falls out of favor of use, especially if they can then harness said power and focus it onto their bodies. Basically proves Axx's point. Without any direct statements or confirmations from the story itself, the only other surefire way you can scale Environmental Destruction Feats to yourself is via a universal energy system. Of course, if it's greatly above the character's usual showings, just leave it as its ultimate attack if it is offensive, or as a separate ED feat assuming it isn't used in an offensive manner.



I'm fine with this, as long as you don't use it to downgrade a god-tier's feat just because the fodders have lower showings. Context matters immensely when dealing with stuff like this, a god-tier might have only one Universal feat but if the plot makes it to be an incredibly important event (Usually in the very end of a story where it surpasses everything else and there's no chance for fodder level enemies to even compare, just to show how OP the final god-tier boss is), then it's enough to suggest that the feat isn't an outlier. Otherwise, you might as well axe the universe-busting feat Goku has right now because he did it only once despite using God Ki and Super Saiyan God to amplify himself to levels that far surpass his DBZ self. And we both know that that's not gonna work in any scenario. But then again, I believe this specific Criteria is already rendered redundant with our Outlier policy page so...


Seems fine at a glance.


Yeah sure, why the hell not. MHA's Quirks are a great example. Endeavour serves to be one.

Honestly, given what I see, they should really serve as guidelines and not as absolute mandatory rules, but still highly recommended. This is how they should really work to be honest. If it fulfills one condition, everything else becomes supportive evidence in the long run.

I completely agree with KLOL as well. Great job, mate.

As for everyone else, remember to play nice like DDM said.

 

[KatBoi69]

Glass wizards aside, there's the issue of combat magic scaling to physicals, which is one thing, and non-combat magic scaling to combat, then physicals, which is a whole 'nother can of worms, like creation feats and such.

Personally, this doesn't make me uncomfortable.

If you have a UES that clearly puts forth the idea that "the more you can do with this energy, the stronger you are generally" then I don't see the issue with scaling out-of-combat feats to physicals, as long as they're done in a relevant amount of time, and there aren't any obvious anti-feats (ex. Shunobi generates a whole dimension in their free time but gets merk'd by a genin, or some other silly bs).

 

[KLOL506]

yes and? How does a sword being sharp relate to an energy type (piercing energy) made up by this wiki?

You were the one who brought it up first, you should have automatically known that this would have been referred that way.

You just said it's not on there, now you say it is but you dont agree. Well, whatever, really.

The thread might have the term UES, but it's primarily about Cooling feats and their legitimacy, nothing else.

I said show, dont tell, for a reason.

What part of "end-game uber-OP boss" do you not understand here? What part of "Said OP boss's feat serves as a major plot-point in the game" did you not get?

If people keep bringing them up, I'll reply. I dont just ignore ppl. If yall wanna take it to my wall or another thread instead, go for it.

You might reply, but stop thinking that you'll be able to achieve ground-breaking changes just like that with no approval and plenty of bias to show for.

My last reply on this here. If u wanna continue, bring it to my wall. The more casual the creation feat, the worse it actually is for your argument, since that is the literal backbone of my argument.

Wrong once again, but at this point we both know you won't yield. So carry on I suppose.

But if you do this for the sake of derailing ever again, that's gonna be another RVR for you.