Wart: Another Low 2-C Enemy

[Theuser789]

You use personal attacks all the time you hyprocrite, show some level of pride and admit what you do instead of hiding away everytime, especially since you throw "insult" to anybody who only insults your points

Plus backpedalling again, everyone is mocking your point about universes not being actual universes, not that in this case universe might not refer to Subcon

Also not "my" argument, all I argued is that universe means it's a universe, not my random lowball based on my favorite franchises

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You use personal attacks all the time you hyprocrite

I try to insult arguments, not people. I don't think Weeb or Hadou are bad people persay but their arguments are awful and I feel I should be allowed to say this with a straight face.

show some level of pride and admit what you do instead of hiding away everytime, especially since you throw "insult" to anybody who only insults your points

I don't think people calling me an idiot or a hypocrite or a liar is insulting my points.

Plus backpedalling again, everyone is mocking your point about universes not being actual universes, not that in this case universe might not refer to Subcon

I don't care that people mock me. I'm actually glad the people that think Wart is Low 2-C are mocking me, means I'm on the right side.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I've seen it multiple times in Star Wars Legends if that's what you wanna hear. I also seen universe used in some manga to refer to places that are actually small.

If you want to use super obscure stuff, Unicorn Jelly has universes that are only 10 lightyears in width.

I think you're missing the point. The fact you have to use an obscure example as something that comes to mind might as well show that's not going to be the general usage of such. It seems pretty unmotivated to just assume the worst of authors to the point that we automatically assume they don't understand the words they're using just because of a few rogues.

I'm assuming these cases you bring up actively have a context within the said universe that goes against those statements. That's not really applicable here when there's nothing in direct contradiction, once again.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Besides this is just a recurring attempt to control the narrative. Whether or not Subcon is a universe based on the scan from Nintendo Power is irrelevant. The far more pressing matters are independent on that.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Besides this is just a recurring attempt to control the narrative. Whether or not Subcon is a universe based on the scan from Nintendo Power is irrelevant. The far more pressing matters are independent on that.

It objectively does matter. If Subcon is a universe, then there's absolutely no way you can downplay the scale of Wart's influence over it. At that point, it's determining whether or not it's AP-based.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I would like to say that I hope everyone is having a good day

Why thank you! I hope you do as well.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The fact you have to use an obscure example as something that comes to mind might as well show that's not going to be the general usage of such.

Star Wars is obscure?

I disagree, Science Fiction verses use "universes" to refer to places smaller than our own universe all the freaking time. Marvel and DC do it often if you read their cosmic comics. People frequently go into universes that are weird and not at all similar to our own in how they function. Half of the appeal of Classic Dr. Strange was seeing all the weird dimensions he visited.

It seems pretty unmotivated to just assume the worst of authors to the point that we automatically assume they don't understand the words they're using just because of a few rogues.

First of all, what author? We are talking about a Nintendo Power Guide not a piece of fiction.

I'm not saying the person who wrote that excerpt in the guide "doesn't know what they're talking about", that's actually quite insulting on your part. A person who uses the word "universe" to refer to something other than a universe isn't being ignorant, they're doing something that's perfectly acceptable.

I'm assuming these cases you bring up actively have a context within the said universe that goes against those statements. That's not really applicable here when there's nothing in direct contradiction, once again.

The problem with the Nintendo Power Guide statement, even putting it aside that it may or may not be an acceptable source in it of itself, is that the line doesn't directly say that Subcon is a universe. It just says: "Mario must save the universe" and nothing more. It says this at the end of a paragraph while it talked about Subcon in past paragraphs. It is a possible conclusion that "You must save the universe" is talking about Subcon but the line is broad. I could see it used for any other Mario Game and it'd still make sense, and no one in their right mind would argue that the Mushroom Kingdom or Sarasaland or New Donk or whatever are universal in size.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It objectively does matter. If Subcon is a universe, then there's absolutely no way you can downplay the scale of Wart's influence over it. At that point, it's determining whether or not it's AP-based.

It's not AP-based at all. It's just a curse + summoning minions, people have gone over it. Subcon being a universe doesn't mean that the society on Subcon that is actually threatened by Wart is literally spread out over the entire universe either

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Okay, if you REALLY want to be stingy and want the entire books: Go right ahead and read them.

Yes. Evidently it is something that needs prove. It is an extraordinary claim that needs extraordinary evidence. And just the usage of the word "World" isn't enough. Which is all that's been given so far.

Already has been proven and accepted on the profiles, no reason why each dream world would vary in size. The last thread attempting to use this logic why denied by staff members, plus Subcon is referred to both as a dream and universe. Meaning I absolutely can say dream worlds equal universes. Because if I wanted to, I could use the other entries for proof. And there are many.

So what. In a Nintendo Power Strategy Guide. The claim in it of itself is vague too, because universes aren't necessarily the size of our universe. That's arbitrary.

Reads this comment What? Huh? Do you just wanna downgrade every verse? Why would it NOT refer to an actual universe? That's massive headcanon, like holy shit. It's called a universe, it's referred to a world many times, the place is filled with stars, it has time within it, and it has a parallel universe. Saying it wouldn't mean an actual universe would be literal bullshit.

Pocket Universes. Baby Universes. Simulation Universes.

Plenty of things that can be called universes aren't necessarily the size of our universe.

Cool, NOTHING was implied anything like that.

So what? It's clearly not that big.

You know what a parallel world is, right? If your evidence will be that you can't freely walk around, don't bother, it's a basic game mechanic. You can take the potion and throw it anywhere, and it will be displayed parallel to wherever you just threw it at.

We know how Wart is the source of said bad dreams = His curse and his minions which go out and attack Subcon. It has nothing to do with evil itself as an idea coming from Wart, or him creating nightmare universes by existing. You are selling him as if he's the Marvel Abstract Nightmare when he's a frog wizard.

Okay, so you agree his curse expands around Subcon, good to know. The source of evil wouldn't refer to the monsters, Wart being the source of bad dreams doesn't refer to Subcon by the way. It refers to separate dreams referred to as "evil dreams". Would you just imply that his curse hasn't done anything at all? Why would his curse also be invovled with already existing bad dreams? That doesn't make sense.

It would be unlikely those are dreams he also just suddenly took over, instead they would be dreams related to him. It's also implied more than one dream is currently being involved.

It's also stated he created plant life all over dreams, which they are seen appearing even from above the clouds.

He's also been stated to likely have some type of control over Sub-Space.

Going back to something else Niarobi posted as supposed evidence, Wart being referred to as the “source of all evil” and “the biggest nightmare” are just talking about how he can summon monsters to terrorize the residents of Subcon.

That would also be ignoring the several evil and bad dreams existing, which Wart being the source of those adds up.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I disagree, Science Fiction verses use "universes" to refer to places smaller than our own universe all the freaking time. Marvel and DC do it often if you read their cosmic comics. People frequently go into universes that are weird and not at all similar to our own in how they function. Half of the appeal of Classic Dr. Strange was seeing all the weird dimensions he visited.

Of course, you'd have to prove something in Mario being called a universe is smaller in scale than our own universe, for that to be the case. To see if Mario follows that mindset.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Star Wars is obscure?

Plz, don't embarrass yourself like this. We both know what I was talking about.

"If you want to use super obscure stuff, Unicorn Jelly has universes that are only 10 lightyears in width."

I disagree, Science Fiction verses use "universes" to refer to places smaller than our own universe all the freaking time. Marvel and DC do it often if you read their cosmic comics. People frequently go into universes that are weird and not at all similar to our own in how they function. Half of the appeal of Classic Dr. Strange was seeing all the weird dimensions he visited.

Last time I checked, Mario wasn't a science fiction series so... Do those comics actually contradictions to those being alt universes, or is this yet another nitpick for the wrong reasons? I don't think I've read, watched, or listened to a single piece of fictional material that has ever used "universe" and not actually meaning universe. That includes Sci-Fi too because while I've not consumed every single piece of media from Doctor Who for example, literally any time they meant universe, they meant universe.

First of all, what author? We are talking about a Nintendo Power Guide not a piece of fiction.

au·thor
/ˈôTHər/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a writer of a book, article, or report.

The person who is writing that passage for Subcon is authoring for that issue of Nintendo Power. If you don't like the word author, you can use "writer" instead. It literally doesn't change the fact that a person who's conveying something to you through that medium is going to use the general usage like 99.9% of the time.

I'm not saying the person who wrote that excerpt in the guide "doesn't know what they're talking about", that's actually quite insulting on your part. A person who uses the word "universe" to refer to something other than a universe isn't being ignorant, they're doing something that's perfectly acceptable.

That's pretty much the implication you give when you imply someone who writes "universe" isn't using the word universe correctly. It pretty much is because that's called you're using the wrong term. Unless it's like that one verse where the universe is just naturally smaller cosmologically, not using something for its correct definition is textbook ignorance. It would literally be like me saying someone is eating an apple when they are eating a tomato.

The problem with the Nintendo Power Guide statement, even putting it aside that it may or may not be an acceptable source in it of itself, is that the line doesn't directly say that Subcon is a universe. It just says: "Mario must save the universe" and nothing more. It says this at the end of a paragraph while it talked about Subcon in past paragraphs. It is a possible conclusion that "You must save the universe" is talking about Subcon but the line is broad. I could see it used for any other Mario Game and it'd still make sense, and no one in their right mind would argue that the Mushroom Kingdom or Sarasaland or New Donk or whatever are universal in size.

Okay, what location is Mario saving? Subcon. What is the text saying Mario is saving? A universe. Subcon is disjointed from the rest of the typical Mario world, so you cannot even apply the logic of "Oh well he's posing a bigger threat than just to Subcon is what that means". The difference is that those locations are all within a defined universe of other locations while the same can't be said about Subcon. I'd argue that even if Subcon weren't a universe, the fact it refers to Mario having to save the universe according to the Nintendo Power would still imply Wart's scale goes simply beyond Subcon as well and you still get arguably universal stuff.

I'm not in favor of the universal stuff particularly, but you need better arguments than these. This isn't sufficient in the slightest. You can argue about whether or not Wart himself is universal, but I'm pretty sure him having a threat of sorts to a universal degree would be set and stone using the Nintendo Power.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Already has been proven and accepted on the profiles, no reason why each dream world would vary in size. The last thread attempting to use this logic why denied by staff members, plus Subcon is referred to both as a dream and universe. Meaning I absolutely can say dream worlds equal universes. Because if I wanted to, I could use the other entries for proof. And there are many.

Can you explain why instead of just saying that "People agree with it so it is"? Please?

I want to know the evidence.

Because from my perspective of these last two threads, "Mario Supporters" agree is not a good measure of anything, I'm sorry.

And again, who cares, we are not backwards scaling cosmology back to Mario 2, this was already established in this thread, I'm sorry you still want to do this. I'm not.

Reads this comment What? Huh? Do you just wanna downgrade every verse? Why would it NOT refer to an actual universe? That's massive headcanon, like holy shit. It's called a universe, it's referred to a world many times, the place is filled with stars, it has time within it, and it has a parallel universe. Saying it wouldn't mean an actual universe would be literal bullshit.

The word "World" doesn't mean universe Weeb we've been over this. All you're saying is that it's a word. It having stars just means it may be a pocket dimension, and it having time is true of like every dimension in fiction save for those that don't and it's not indicative of size. Time isn't spatial.

The Subcon has no direct evidence that it is a universe in it of itself. I'm sorry. All it has is a Nintendo Power quote that says "Mario must save the universe". That's it. Nobody has addressed this yet.

, so you agree his curse expands around Subcon, good to know.

I don't.

The source of evil wouldn't refer to the monsters

It literally is. It's the only tangible effect of the curse that is established in the game.

Wart being the source of bad dreams doesn't refer to Subcon by the way. It refers to separate dreams referred to as "evil dreams".

So what. Subcon has dreams. Evil dreams happening now because of Wart's meddling has nothing to do with him creating universes like you insist he does.

Would you just imply that his curse hasn't done anything at all? Why would his curse also be invovled with already existing bad dreams? That doesn't make sense.

I don't think the curse is involved with existing bad dreams, I said the opposite. I think the curse, evidently by the evidence being posted (which you yourself have shared and which I will address now soon) does not show that Wart "making good dreams bad" has to do with any cosmic reality warping or dream manipulation. It's a very physical process that has to do with his forces terrorizing the dreams.

And then you dump in a bunch of screenshots. Let's go over each and everyone of them, shall we?

• One. Gray Snifits are stated to shoot "Nightmare Bullets". Again this shows how literally physical Wart's curse is. He has literal minions shooting people as the cause of dreams becoming nightmares. Mario defeats these guys and it stops. Pidgits are also said to be the "bearers of bad dreams", ignoring that this is just super vague it also doesn't mean much at all. They just soar through the sky on magic carpets and attack people, again.
• Two. This just says that he is a part of a "Club from evil dreams". This just confirm that evil dreams exist and that this enemy comes from them. It has NOTHING tying it to Wart's AP. Whatsoever.
• Three. Another Snifit. he is describing as "spiting the bullets of evil dreams from his mouth". Again, do you see how physical and literal Wart's curse is? The dudes are literally running amok shooting people. It isn't a cosmic / spatial corruption of the dreamscape. How can you not see this.
• Four. Mouser stuff. Mouser is stated to be a "bomber of bad dreams that destroys good dreams". He literally shows up and throws bombs and this ruins the good dreams, not because his bombs are destroying entire dimensions, they evidently don't have that range, they are normal bombs, but because by throwing bombs around like a freaking terrorist he is (pardon the pun) terrorizing Subcon and putting an end to good dreams. I hope this is well explained.
• Five. This is just the same statement reworded. Mouser throws bombs that "destroy sweet dreams". I understand that you want to argue Mouser is a universe buster but this ain't it. He isn't destroying any dream worlds. We never see him do anything remotely similar, your interpretation of what he does is incongruent with the game.

It would be unlikely those are dreams he also just suddenly took over, instead they would be dreams related to him. It's also implied more than one dream is currently being involved.

The Cobrat image merely says that it appears on Toad's dreams, yes. As established in Super Mario Bros 2, all dreams take place in Subcon as all the four characters literally end up there in their sleep. Certainly multiple dreams exist in Subcon but the evidence presented in the actual game isn't that Subcon is a multiverse or a collection of dimensions, just a broad "Dream World" where all dreams happen.

It's also stated he created plant life all over dreams, which they are seen appearing even from above the clouds.

... Did you read the scan? Panser is stated to be the ONLY plant life Wart created. You're acting as if it's something that stretches an entire universe?

He's also been stated to likely have some type of control over Sub-Space.

Does he? The scan in question only states that the Albatosses are under Wart's control, which is at best a Mind Control feat. It doesn't say that he controls the entire world of Sub-Space.

That would also be ignoring the several evil and bad dreams existing, which Wart being the source of those adds up.

Bad Dreams exist yes, but Wart isn't the source of all evil dreams in existence. He's the source of the new evil dreams that emerged from his terrorizing of Subcon.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@PlozAlcachaz I hope these are better arguments in your mind.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Isn't Nintendo Power a 24 year old magazine directly published by Nintendo of America? It seems like a credible source.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Isn't Nintendo Power a 24 year old magazine directly published by Nintendo of America?

Yes. The fact that it's an old magazine licensed by Nintendo but which is still on a degree of separation from the actual development of the games (two if we're talking about Japanese games, specially back then) is why people like myself are hesitant to use it.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Yes. The fact that it's an old magazine licensed by Nintendo but which is still on a degree of separation from the actual development of the games (two if we're talking about Japanese games, specially back then) is why people like myself are hesitant to use it.

Makes sense. But still, it's at the very least a secondary source, as it was directly published by Nintendo for the games themselves, having a degree of separation between the American version (which is what seems to really matter) makes it a secondary source.

 

[InfiniteDay]

This is a confirmed dream from Mario Party 5, this saying that dreams are universes.

(don't know if this changes much)

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

It seems that Dreams are clearly universal in size, so I’m inclined to agree with Blaze and Ploz here.

 

[Bobsican]

Before Matt pulls "We aren't allowing using continuity to get cosmology in Mario" stuff, we actually do already.
The entire reasoning for the 2-B rating on the very top tiers on the series is based on combining the lore of at least two games to then reference it in the cosmological nature of the feats.
So yes, this is an universe overall by taking account of all the lore, if you want to break this, you may as well try to downgrade the entire verse from 2-B.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

@PlozAlcachaz I hope these are better arguments in your mind.

Good enough for me if you didn't have any actual counterpoints.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Jesus, this Thread is filled to the brim with Tension.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We aren't actually backwards scaling to Mario 2, I'm sorry. I went over this early on in the thread.

This is a confirmed dream from Mario Party 5, this saying that dreams are universes.

Is this from a Game Manual? What is "Future Dream". Is it a specific dream world?

The entire reasoning for the 2-B rating on the very top tiers on the series is based on combining the lore of at least two games to then reference it in the cosmological nature of the feats.

If that's the case then I think it's problematic in it of itself, though I agree Super Dimentio's feat is probably 2-B, I don't see why you would need to combined that with anything.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

DMC Devil May Cry is a pretty good game not gonna lie

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

DMC Devil May Cry is a pretty good game not gonna lie

What does that have to do with Mario?

 

[Bobsican]

the 2-B feat is based on the Dream Depot (Mario Party 5) and every being making legitimate realities when sleeping (Dream Team) for the size of the cosmology, and the latter came out way after Super Paper Mario.

 

[liluzivert]

Destroying a universe doesn’t need more context. Like I said before we might as well downgrade each character that says they’re gonna destroy a universe/spacetime with no further context because “oh they could just be ruining or taking over the universe lol”

 

[InfiniteDay]

Ok, so the universe statement is actually a good source, because it came from the direct manual itself

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

We aren't actually backwards scaling to Mario 2, I'm sorry. I went over this early on in the thread.

Why is backscaling cosmologically a problem exactly? That's the whole point of updating lore. You're supposed to adjust the rest of the continuity to follow it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Destroying a universe doesn’t need more context. Like I said before we might as well downgrade each character that says they’re gonna destroy a universe/spacetime with no further context because “oh they could just be ruining or taking over the universe lol”

Yes actually.

It needs context.

And there's no statement about destroying universes here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

the 2-B feat is based on the Dream Depot (Mario Party 5) and every being making legitimate realities when sleeping (Dream Team), and the latter came out way after Super Paper Mario.

Pretty sure Super Dimentio's Void thingy is 2-B without this.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Yes actually.

It needs context.

And there's no statement about destroying universes here.

Ok, if there is evidence, then we can say it is Low 2-C if not 2-C if we get ALOT more evidence.
(and I believe it is about a curse affecting the universe?)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Jesus, this Thread is filled to the brim with Tension.

Yes it is. And I apologize for contributing with this negative atmosphere. I think we can disagree peacefully.

DMC Devil May Cry is a pretty good game not gonna lie

Nah man this is better:

 

[InfiniteDay]

Also this doesn't matter but here is a indirect image that shows that dreams do actually make the worlds.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why is backscaling cosmologically a problem exactly? That's the whole point of updating lore. You're supposed to adjust the rest of the continuity to follow it.

I went over it here, I hope it's comprehensive:

He wasn't, actually.

Setting aside the argument of Tier 4 Mario in itself, the feats didn't exist at all in the first game.

We actually do this for basically every long-running series with multiple writers / installments out there. We are always weary to apply severe lore developments from later installments backwards into the earlier installments, specially if those don't have much story to begin with.

Mario has literally dozens and dozens of games across decades. It's natural that what is established in one RPG Spin-Off from the Nintendo DS and what is established in the Manual for the English Version of Super Mario Bros 2 would differ.

To use my own favorite verse as an example, we don't apply the more complex metaphysics of later games to Elder Scrolls Arena, despite the main character of Elder Scrolls Arena explicitly qualifying to receive an upgrade to them by their nature in the lore. This is because Arena was made before literally 99% of the series' lore was even invented, so we don't think it applies within the context of the game itself.

This is despite Elder Scrolls being a story-driven game series that has loremasters whose job is to make the story consistent, and who tries to keep a cohesive world and which still has some writers from the 90s working in current games. Whereas Mario is broad and wacky and has far more installments.

I would add that there are several "long-running" verses with multiple writers where we try to avoid backwards scaling. Marvel and DC are the prime examples.

 

[Lou_change]

And so Matt has stopped a second Mario character from wrongly being low 2-C I hope Blaze doesn't go for more swings and we do the big CRT.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Well, we may have to wait for the people who proposed this to wake up, so they can show the feats. I say give them half a day to make a reasonable argument before we close this, is this ok @Matthew_Schroeder? Because in my time, that's 11:00am est tommorow.

 

[InfiniteDay]

I will take the like on the post as a yes, all people with knowledge of them affecting the dream, specifically @DatOneWeeb and @Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou), please share your thoughts by 11:00am est tmr, or the thread will be closed.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

On the subject of Mario’s lore, worth noting Subcon is referred to as the “land of dreams”, then when Mario Party 5 was later released, the Dream Depot is referred to being the same thing.

 

[InfiniteDay]

This was brought up to, as when Wart was defeated, Subcon was "returned to its natural state" which at the very least implies he was able to affect a significant portion of Subcon

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This was brought up to, as when Wart was defeated, Subcon was "returned to its natural state" which at the very least implies he was able to affect a significant portion of Subcon

I addressed this in my big post early on.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/wart-another-low-2-c-enemy.108135/#post-3352515

This is even worse. Dictionary Scaling. People who do this are laughed out of the room. Let me break it down to you why:

THIS IS NOT HOW LANGUAGE WORKS. Seriously, the fact that one word can be used to refer to something in one context doesn't necessarily mean that it will apply to that same definition under any other context. Seriously, nobody but Versus Debaters think like this. They try to prove the meaning of words across an entire fictional universe by finding one time where it was used in that context and then try to apply that to every other usage of that word in all instances in that series. This makes no sense whatsoever and is absolutely ridiculous once you apply it to non-versus debate issues.

Spoiler: A Metaphor

To steal a metaphor from Dargoo Faust, imagine you are watching a Baseball Show. In the context of this series you come to understand that the word "Bat" means "an instrument with a handle and a solid surface, usually of wood, held by the player's hands and used for hitting the ball in games such as baseball". This is self-evident once you watch the series...

But then let's say in a later episode a character says that "he saw a bat flying out his apartment window". Would you instantly assume, in this context, that the character meant that he saw an instrument with a handle and a solid surface, usually of wood, held by the player's hands and used for hitting the ball in games such as baseball flying out his apartment window? Surely not.

Leaving that aside, the subject of "State" in the case of Super Mario Bros 2 evidently does not refer to the entire spatial fabric of Subcon, as you are insisting that it does. The scenery of Subcon is evidently not altered by Wart's magic, you are still traversing Subcon as it normally is, the only issue is that it is currently under the rule of Wart and overrun with his evil minions. The "natural state" that Mario and friends are tasked with repairing is the freedom of Subcon's people, not a cosmological structure being corrupted. Subcon wasn't turned into a distorted nightmare realm under Wart's power, no, he just took over it.