Wart: Another Low 2-C Enemy

[Mephistus]

i dont know of any realistic bombs that spell out "BOMB" in their explosion. like, those aren't typical traits to irl bombs there to compare expansion let alone other traits man, they can be magic or whatever to explain away the aoe lacking during the boss fight.

neutral on the mouser stuff tho.

 

[liluzivert]

If we were theorizing then I’d agree that he isn’t universal+ but we shouldn’t treat this feat differently from others if the narrator straight up says he’ll nuke a dream which is a universe without further context.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

If we were theorizing then I’d agree that he isn’t universal+ but we shouldn’t treat this feat differently from others if the narrator straight up says he’ll nuke a dream which is a universe without further context.

I don’t think the Mouser statement is concrete enough tbh.

 

[liluzivert]

I don’t think the Mouser statement is concrete enough tbh.

well what’s wrong with it?

 

[Theuser789]

I try to insult arguments, not people. I don't think Weeb or Hadou are bad people persay but their arguments are awful and I feel I should be allowed to say this with a straight face.


I don't think people calling me an idiot or a hypocrite or a liar is insulting my points.


I don't care that people mock me. I'm actually glad the people that think Wart is Low 2-C are mocking me, means I'm on the right side.

And that's what I did, I called your arguments dumb, so don't go with this shit of "when I do it it's not bad but when others do is bad" k? Also you literally called them a liar and said they were dishonest, we can quote you here

Anyways I accept your concession about universes meaning universes and not some random lowball

 

[InfiniteDay]

Can we not just ignore this which obviously shows that the Dream Machine affects entire dreams?

 

[GyroNutz]

I'll take a more thorough look at this later, but for now I want to say that I agree with Subcon being a universe (as in our baseline for a universe; the observable universe) and that Nintendo Power is a legit source in this instance. Wart likely has Universal or Universal+ range through his magic, but his curse wouldn't be applicable to AP; it's a hax. If that's no longer the main argument then I request that the main Low 2-C arguments be put in the OP.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Yep, this is more of a hax.

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

Wow. This exploded.

 

[00potato]

Wow. This exploded.

I can’t tell if this pun was intentional or not.

 

[Mephistus]

Can we not just ignore this which obviously shows that the Dream Machine affects entire dreams?

Any infos from that particular game is not canon to Mario's iteration of the game which rewrites (ripoffs) that story/game its originally based upon; the dream machine in Mario's continuity even going by the remakes/sequels just was stated it created some of wart's followers and throws out assorted veggies during the final battle.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Ok, that makes sense. @Matthew_Schroeder, do you wish to close this, we have a range upgrade I believe, but no AP one.

 

[Antvasima]

Staff members:

What are the summarised conclusions here?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I think this should be a range upgrade as well. Just a minor note, I was the one who wrote policies on our Universe page. While that doesn't make me the best expert, it is something that I would have knowledge on the topic.

Subcon is a universe, while I don't agree with "Every use of the word Dream" meaning Universe by default. Flowery language about filling with dreams or destroying dreams shouldn't be taked as literally destroying Dream Worlds/Dimensions. Dream Dimensions are very much parallel universes. If their is a massive collection of parallel worlds/dimensions and at least one of those worlds or dimensions has enough text to be a universe, then all of those same "Parallel worlds" within the same collection should be considered universes. Being called a world or dimension doesn't mean universe, nor does "Parallel dimension" automatically mean universe. But Parallel dimensions should be the same size as the dimensions or bodies of space they're parallel too. And visual citings are a baseline in which positives require more evidence. But as I said, if one of the "Parallel worlds" has universe statements, then the same collection should still be a collection of universes.

However, cursing a universe isn't an AP feat, for is distorting time and space. But it is a range feat. Wart does distort Subcon, and he also arguably effects other places such as the real world and possibly other people's dreams. Subcon was specifically a world Mario created when he dreamed, but many others visit it according to the guidebooks. So I think Low Multiverse range via Nightmare manipulation seems plausible.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Staff members:

What are the summarised conclusions here?

That once again it's a Range Upgrade and not a AP upgrade.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Subcon is a universe, while I don't agree with "Every use of the word Dream" meaning Universe by default. Flowery language about filling with dreams or destroying dreams shouldn't be taked as literally destroying Dream Worlds/Dimensions. Dream Dimensions are very much parallel universes. If their is a massive collection of parallel worlds/dimensions and at least one of those worlds or dimensions has enough text to be a universe, then all of those same "Parallel worlds" within the same collection should be considered universes. Being called a world or dimension doesn't mean universe, nor does "Parallel dimension" automatically mean universe. But Parallel dimensions should be the same size as the dimensions or bodies of space they're parallel too. And visual citings are a baseline in which positives require more evidence. But as I said, if one of the "Parallel worlds" has universe statements, then the same collection should still be a collection of universes.

My conclusion based on the presented evidence of Mario Party 5 stuff is that Dreams in Mario CAN be the size of universe, but aren't necessarily that big. The one dream in Mario Party 5 that is consistently referred to as a universe is "Future Dream", which is a dream themed around space exploration. A Sea-themed dream, or a flower-themed dream, or a candy-themed dream wouldn't necessarily have to be universe-sized to satisfy the mind of the person dreaming them.

The Dream Depot being as big as it is makes sense, since it houses all dreams regardless of their size, but the immediate assumption that any dream = universe is something I don't agree with.

And again, I'm not in favor of scaling Mario Party 5 back to Mario Bros 2 seeing as one contradicts the later.

 

[00potato]

So can we all agree on the range point?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Seems so

 

[InfiniteDay]

Low Multiversal seems good, and we really should not be debating whether universes=dreams, because there is so much to say it is that it isn't funny.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think his range is just universal. The evidence for otherwise is that he mind-controlled some people in Subspace but that doesn't mean he did it while in Subcon.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Ok, universal good for you people?

 

[Omnitraxus100]

@Matthew_Schroeder

I don't think every single dream in Mario Party 5 is necessarily a universe as they, in this occasion, make a specific note about Future Dream being a universe. Which makes thematic sense given what the dream is.

I don't believe a "Sea Dream" would have to be universal in size, since the dream in question doesn't require it.

I mean, why wouldn't they be, there would be no reason for dreams to vary in size. Mind you, we don't see the full scope of dreams, beyond the aforementioned Future Dream. In Mario 64, the painting realms do have stars, but we don't see them in all realms, despite that, they are alluded to. In essence, the same can be argued to apply here, in the aspect that they are likely much larger than shown

It should also be noted that, most times, the term "dimension" is used to mean universe in Mario. case in point with many things, especially Super Paper Mario, where dimensions/universes are a fundamental plot point

I mean, contextually speaking, you can even deduce dreams as universes considering

1) Dreams need to be accessed through traveling across space and time
2) They are called dimensions, in a verse that largely uses dimension as universe
3) We have blatant examples of dreams being universal in size and having stars
4) Time and Space functions different in dreams

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I mean, why wouldn't they be, there would be no reason for dreams to vary in size. Mind you, we don't see the full scope of dreams, beyond the aforementioned Future Dream. In Mario 64, the painting realms do have stars, but we don't see them in all realms, despite that, they are alluded to. In essence, the same can be argued to apply here, in the aspect that they are likely much larger than shown

I don't understand the logic here, you say that they don't vary in size but you do admit that we don't see the "full scope of dreams beyond the Future Dream".

In other words, you admit that the Future Dream is the only one who's shown to have universal size but rather than assume that it is simply larger you conclude that the others must be as large without evidence?

Similarly, you agree that not all paintings in Mario 64 have stars but... You insist that they must all be star sized? That's not very good logic either. It makes more sense that not all paintings are the same size as they depict different landscapes. Likewise it can be concluded that certain dreams are bigger than others as they are shaped by the subconscious mind of whoever is dreaming.

It should also be noted that, most times, the term "dimension" is used to mean universe in Mario. case in point with many things, especially Super Paper Mario, where dimensions/universes are a fundamental plot point

This is not how language works. Baseball Bat isn't the animal Bat, again. A dimension being used to mean universe in Super Paper Mario doesn't mean everytime it's used in other games it means universe. And Mario Party 5 primarily uses "World" to refer to the dreams again.

1) Dreams need to be accessed through traveling across space and time
2) They are called dimensions, in a verse that largely uses dimension as universe
3) We have blatant examples of dreams being universal in size and having stars
4) Time and Space functions different in dreams

1) This doesn't mean they are universal just that the are other dimensions
2) This isn't how language works, the word dimension can mean several things under different context. Just because Marvel uses dimension to mean universe often (More than any verse I know) doesn't mean all dimensions in Marvel are universal in size)
3) One for the former. Secondly the existence of stars in a realm does not prove they are universal in size. The existence of Pocket Dimensions disproves that.
4) Time flowin differently in a dimension doesn't make it universal in size. Time is not a factor of space.

 

[liluzivert]

I don't understand the logic here, you say that they don't vary in size but you do admit that we don't see the "full scope of dreams beyond the Future Dream".

In other words, you admit that the Future Dream is the only one who's shown to have universal size but rather than assume that it is simply larger you conclude that the others must be as large without evidence?

Similarly, you agree that not all paintings in Mario 64 have stars but... You insist that they must all be star sized? That's not very good logic either. It makes more sense that not all paintings are the same size as they depict different landscapes. Likewise it can be concluded that certain dreams are bigger than others as they are shaped by the subconscious mind of whoever is dreaming.


This is not how language works. Baseball Bat isn't the animal Bat, again. A dimension being used to mean universe in Super Paper Mario doesn't mean everytime it's used in other games it means universe. And Mario Party 5 primarily uses "World" to refer to the dreams again.


1) This doesn't mean they are universal just that the are other dimensions
2) This isn't how language works, the word dimension can mean several things under different context. Just because Marvel uses dimension to mean universe often (More than any verse I know) doesn't mean all dimensions in Marvel are universal in size)
3) One for the former. Secondly the existence of stars in a realm does not prove they are universal in size. The existence of Pocket Dimensions disproves that.
4) Time flowin differently in a dimension doesn't make it universal in size. Time is not a factor of space.

If you think that all dreams aren’t universes then just make a crt.

 

[Mephistus]

irony.
@DarkDragonMedeus
also, the page's updated wording acts like the dream machine cast the curse or amped wart, it should just specify and reflect it was done through his own inherent magic alone, logically.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Dream Machine is literally in Super Mario Bros 2 since Mario 2 is literally a pallet swap of Yume Kojo, which itself translates to "Dream Factory"

You can very much argue that the curse doesn't even scale to Wart himself.

 

[Omnitraxus100]

I don't understand the logic here, you say that they don't vary in size but you do admit that we don't see the "full scope of dreams beyond the Future Dream".

In other words, you admit that the Future Dream is the only one who's shown to have universal size but rather than assume that it is simply larger you conclude that the others must be as large without evidence?

Similarly, you agree that not all paintings in Mario 64 have stars but... You insist that they must all be star sized? That's not very good logic either. It makes more sense that not all paintings are the same size as they depict different landscapes. Likewise it can be concluded that certain dreams are bigger than others as they are shaped by the subconscious mind of whoever is dreaming.


This is not how language works. Baseball Bat isn't the animal Bat, again. A dimension being used to mean universe in Super Paper Mario doesn't mean everytime it's used in other games it means universe. And Mario Party 5 primarily uses "World" to refer to the dreams again.


1) This doesn't mean they are universal just that the are other dimensions
2) This isn't how language works, the word dimension can mean several things under different context. Just because Marvel uses dimension to mean universe often (More than any verse I know) doesn't mean all dimensions in Marvel are universal in size)
3) One for the former. Secondly the existence of stars in a realm does not prove they are universal in size. The existence of Pocket Dimensions disproves that.
4) Time flowin differently in a dimension doesn't make it universal in size. Time is not a factor of space.

What is this strawman, nowhere is that implied. You are taking what I'm saying massively out of context

My general notion was that, we don't see the full size of the dream because the game focuses on a small part of dreams and the same premise applies with Mario 64 as well, where we have worlds in paintings that contain stars, however, we don't see stars in all dreams despite characters mentioning stars and the likes

Secondly, I never did say stars don't exist in the paintings, what i DID say was that not all realms SHOW the stars despite the fact we have characters mentioning starry skies and the likes. I really don't understand how you got that from what I said aside from twisting it around

You do realize that dreams, that otherwise wouldn't have a reason to be about space, contain them. The biggest example is Luigi's in Dream Team, this is further evidence that the cosmology of a dream isn't exactly depend on the dreamer itself as opposed to the main theme of the dream itself

Regarding your other points

1) Nothing suggests Dreams are in other dimensions, they are dimensions themselves and this is explicitly stated by Zeekeeper and other guides such as the ones Blaze posted here

2) Okay, so even by contextual standards, you are still basically wrong because in the context of them being called dimension, all of this literally was in effect and applying even to that context. When Luigi and Mario were traveling through dreams, it's stated that there were traveling between dimensions and we see them traverse space-time as well

3) We have guides use dream and universe interchangeably though, added on with the pointed out evidence I mentioned, I fail to see a proper refutation here

4) I literally never implied it does, but added on with the other evidence, it further supports my notion

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

My general notion was that, we don't see the full size of the dream because the game focuses on a small part of dreams and the same premise applies with Mario 64 as well, where we have worlds in paintings that contain stars, however, we don't see stars in all dreams despite characters mentioning stars and the likes

But this is the entire basis of how evidence is determined on the wiki. If there is no evidence of something bigger we go by what we see! You act as if analyzing something by the size shown is somehow problematic in it of itself!

Secondly, I never did say stars don't exist in the paintings, what i DID say was that not all realms SHOW the stars despite the fact we have characters mentioning starry skies and the likes. I really don't understand how you got that from what I said aside from twisting it around

OR, OR, ALTERNATIVELY, not all painting realms have stars. Only the ones that show it. Surely that's not a controversial thing to say. "The realms that show stars have them, the ones that don't do not" surely isn't a controversial opinion.

You do realize that dreams, that otherwise wouldn't have a reason to be about space, contain them. The biggest example is Luigi's in Dream Team, this is further evidence that the cosmology of a dream isn't exactly depend on the dreamer itself as opposed to the main theme of the dream itself

Dude a night sky with stars is not the same thing as the dream having a full universe's worth of space, that is not evidence of universal size. I'm sorry.

1) Nothing suggests Dreams are in other dimensions, they are dimensions themselves and this is explicitly stated by Zeekeeper and other guides such as the ones Blaze posted here

I literally stated this myself, dimensions don't mean universes so that's not evidence for universal size.

2) Okay, so even by contextual standards, you are still basically wrong because in the context of them being called dimension, all of this literally was in effect and applying even to that context. When Luigi and Mario were traveling through dreams, it's stated that there were traveling between dimensions and we see them traverse space-time as well

Being called dimensions is not the same as being described as universes. You seem to equate "Different realm" with a full universe which is not how it works for any series. I don't understand how you can think like this.

3) We have guides use dream and universe interchangeably though, added on with the pointed out evidence I mentioned, I fail to see a proper refutation here

No we don't. You never gave evidence for this. The only dream that is referred to as a universe is Future Dream, none other is at all.

4) I literally never implied it does, but added on with the other evidence, it further supports my notion

If it doesn't support or prove then it's not evidence, it's just gish-gallop. You're adding irrelevant fluff to try and make it seem bigger than it is.

 

[liluzivert]

can this argument just go on another thread because I don’t think this is relevant to 2-C wart. Again if dreams aren’t universes then just make a crt and argue there.

 

[InfiniteDay]

The first screenshot is you traversing into a unknown world, and it is stated you move through space-time. The second is traversing through a dream into another one, and it is stated that you are traversing into another dimension, both of which imply universes.

Also, the meaning of "dimensions" themselves imply universes, as the definition is: In physics and mathematics, the dimension of a mathematical space (or object) is informally defined as the minimum number of coordinates needed to specify any point within it. ... In classical mechanics, space and time are different categories and refer to absolute space and time.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

While I vehemently disagree with later expansions of lore not being able to be used to update earlier parts of a series (As I feel like that's the whole point of updating cosmology and lore. It expands the older material and newer material and gives them new contexts). I do in fact agree with this being a range feat and not scaling to AP.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@InfiniteDay First one is from Super Mario Galaxy and it’s talking about going to another planet within the universe.

The second one is dimensional travel between the real world and the Dream World in Mario & Luigi: Dream Team.

 

[Bobsican]

@InfiniteDay First one is from Super Mario Galaxy and it’s talking about going to another planet within the universe.

The second one is dimensional travel between the real world and the Dream World in Mario & Luigi: Dream Team.

Eh, in the second one that's not the case, they are going between dream worlds, Zeekeeper just made a large portal in the middle of their fight or so.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I come back on this thread and see it went back to shit, keep the popcorn fest up guys!

Anywho, we all good for range?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think so just need to apply and close this thread.

 

[Bobsican]

It already was, so go ahead.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Range was already applied?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

It was.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Then @DarkDragonMedeus or some other Admin can close this thread.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Will do