Wart: Another Low 2-C Enemy

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Did you just ignore this scan?

It doesn't confirm universal size. Also a sourceless magazine scan is absolutely worthless.

"Bring peace to the universe" is far more general than anything. Where does this even come from.

"Source of evil" also just means that he summoned his evil forces there and is now ruling the place.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

 

[00potato]

When I am arguing for Matt’s side of the debate, you know you f-d up

In all seriousness, remember to keep this thread open for a bit. Closing threads early before all points and counters were adressed was a problem on another CRT and I don’t want that to happen again.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also could someone please give an actual source to all these magazine scans? Because Weeb obviously didn't.

 

[Theuser789]

Can you explain to me how something being called a universe... isn't enough proof for universal size? You can argue "Non canon source" or whatever but it literaly says to bring peace to the universe where the game takes place

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Can you explain to me how something being called a universe... isn't enough proof for universal size? You can argue "Non canon source" or whatever but it literaly says to bring peace to the universe where the game takes place

It could be a pocket universe without context. You'd have to prove that the Dream World of Subcon is identical to the real world in scale. Dream Wolrds / Realms in fiction can be accepted as universal in size, yes, absolutely, but they need evidence behind it. The baseline assumption that people tend to make regarding dream worlds is that they're not even real in the first place, since they're dreams. I concede that in Mario's case Subcon is an actual place they visit, however.

But then this opens another can of worms, isn't this all taking place as Mario and friends Dream? So their fight with Wart and his minions isn't even being waged with their own physical bodies, but their consciousness in the Dream World? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if this is true it could arguably not even scale to their physical selves.

 

[00potato]

Can you explain to me how something being called a universe... isn't enough proof for universal size? You can argue "Non canon source" or whatever but it literaly says to bring peace to the universe where the game takes place

We kinda are (well Matt is I don’t care.) but it doesn’t matter due to how vauge it is. That would not mean anything for Wart’s AP. If you really wanted tier 2 Mario; you would need more solid evidence.

 

[Theuser789]

I don't care about about the tier 2 AP, my problem is this insane logic that something being called a universe somehow isn't enough for the world to be a universe, like what even is this logic?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I will address more arguments in-depth but I'm kinda busy IRL now.

 

[Theuser789]

Just don't use shit like "being called a universe isn't enough proof this a universe", it makes you look extremelly bad

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

But then this opens another can of worms, isn't this all taking place as Mario and friends Dream? So their fight with Wart and his minions isn't even being waged with their own physical bodies, but their consciousness in the Dream World? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if this is true it could arguably not even scale to their physical selves.

Their dream selves are considered comparable to their irl selves since the movesets and styles they have is no different from outside of their world, if anything you can argue they're technically weaker since they require a diff method of attack (but that's moreso game mechanics), and future installments has a non-dream Mario interact with dream Luigi.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Just don't use shit like "being called a universe isn't enough proof this a universe", it makes you look extremelly bad

That's not what I argued actually.

Sidenote, I was trying to write a response but I lost the text since when I quoted a statement it replaced the entire post as it was being written rather than just add up to it. But I should be replying in like an hour.

 

[Lou_change]

I am unsure about this but what about the dream machine doesn't the dream machine have statements implying dream creation and universal range weather manipulation that would support the other bosses who should scale to mouser being low 2-C sweet dreams isn't to flowery sweet dreams refer to a good dream all dreams are universes in Mario sweet or horrible and wart would scale to them.

 

[Theuser789]

No that was what you argued, you literally said that the scan calling it a universe isn't enough proof it's a universe and it could be a "pocket" universe even though it makes no sense whatsover

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am unsure about this but what about the dream machine doesn't the dream machine have statements implying dream creation and universal range weather manipulation that would support the other bosses who should scale to mouser being low 2-C sweet dreams isn't to flowery sweet dreams refer to a good dream all dreams are universes in Mario sweet or horrible and wart would scale to them.

I don't even understand to what you just said.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So let us finally address all the arguments that Weeb laid out for Wart in-depth, shall we? To my knowledge, there were four main arguments that he put out, which I will address one at a time. They are: Scaling, Definition of "State", Timeframe, and Magic Scaling.

I... just explained the scaling man. He uses his magic to also amplify Clawgrip and Fry Guy. It's stated Wart did it too. Those bubbles amped the bosses, the cast can take hits and defeat them. Wart also uses those bubbles.

The argument for the scaling is simply ridiculous, as has been pointed out by Saikou as well. We do not scale characters to their Power Sources in this wiki, mate, at least not anymore. Being empowered by a magic artifact or a spell doesn't necessarily mean that you are using the full extent of the thingy's power, or else all its energy would literally run out the moment the character attacked. It would be like saying that electrical devices in your house such as a computer or a lightbulb "scale to the full power of the reactor powering your entire town". Or worse, to say that a Solar Panel is 4-C because it's powered by the sun.

Letting that aside, Wart's minions are EVIDENTLY not as powerful as he is, as he is their boss and also the main villain and final enemy you face in the game. A villain empowering his minions is a common trope in fiction that does not denote that they are as powerful as the villain. They can't be in order for Wart to still be the main threat.

And you also haven't addressed how Wart's "bubbles" scale to his AP, but more on that later.

What we know is the people from Subcon stated Wart changed its original state.
Definition of "state": the particular condition that someone or something is in at a specific time.
Synonyms: Condition, shape, form
So Wart's curse was stated to alter Subcon, along with affecting the cast in an unknown way.

This is even worse. Dictionary Scaling. People who do this are laughed out of the room. Let me break it down to you why:

THIS IS NOT HOW LANGUAGE WORKS. Seriously, the fact that one word can be used to refer to something in one context doesn't necessarily mean that it will apply to that same definition under any other context. Seriously, nobody but Versus Debaters think like this. They try to prove the meaning of words across an entire fictional universe by finding one time where it was used in that context and then try to apply that to every other usage of that word in all instances in that series. This makes no sense whatsoever and is absolutely ridiculous once you apply it to non-versus debate issues.

Spoiler: A Metaphor

To steal a metaphor from Dargoo Faust, imagine you are watching a Baseball Show. In the context of this series you come to understand that the word "Bat" means "an instrument with a handle and a solid surface, usually of wood, held by the player's hands and used for hitting the ball in games such as baseball". This is self-evident once you watch the series...

But then let's say in a later episode a character says that "he saw a bat flying out his apartment window". Would you instantly assume, in this context, that the character meant that he saw an instrument with a handle and a solid surface, usually of wood, held by the player's hands and used for hitting the ball in games such as baseball flying out his apartment window? Surely not.

Leaving that aside, the subject of "State" in the case of Super Mario Bros 2 evidently does not refer to the entire spatial fabric of Subcon, as you are insisting that it does. The scenery of Subcon is evidently not altered by Wart's magic, you are still traversing Subcon as it normally is, the only issue is that it is currently under the rule of Wart and overrun with his evil minions. The "natural state" that Mario and friends are tasked with repairing is the freedom of Subcon's people, not a cosmological structure being corrupted. Subcon wasn't turned into a distorted nightmare realm under Wart's power, no, he just took over it.

It should be a very short timeframe as BS Super Mario Bros USA implies it takes him a short time. It's also revealed in the ending that after Wart is killed, the curse is removed. So if the curse is fully removed upon death, than that should give a good indication.

This argument is really bad too... As it provides no source whatsoever for the claim being made. You're effectively saying that "It would be a very short timeframe as the thing I'm saying has a short timeframe implies it takes him a short time". You're literally arguing that the assumption proves the assumption.

Leaving that aside... It's also a very bad argument in it of itself, as well? Weeb here is conceding that Wart's curse took him a "short timeframe" to cast, but it still denotes a timeframe, meaning that Weeb implictly agrees that it isn't something Wart can just do with a snap of his fingers. Rather, it requires specific time and casting, even if brief.

Even assuming a random timeframe of 5 minutes for the casting this would still not scale to Wart's normal magic power as it took him 5 minutes to do so. It doesn't matter that the timeframe was brief, it still wouldn't scale. In VSBW the standard assumed timeframe for Attack Potency is one second, as that is the timeframe behing a Watt (Joule/second), which is how energy is actually measured in real life.

Finally, the curse being lifted with his death only denotes that WArt was personally responsible for it. It was his magic so it goes away with him, natural. The only way it would PHYSICALLY scale is if the reason behind the curse is that Wart is literally so fat and ugly and evil that his very presence corrupted Subcon, which doesn't seem to be the case.

Speaking of, let's address the final point...

Because he amps enemies with them, plus it would be a massive assumption that the power of his magic suddenly varies from attack to attack. If both are done via magic, which he himself is the source, it does scale.

I'm... Genuinely not sure where Weeb is coming from him. It's like he's arguing from a completely separate parallel universe and I'm concerned over what past experiences led him to think like this.

I mean, seriously, Magic varying from natural power is up there with the most basic assumptions in the entire wiki. Magic Users have their feats scale TO THEIR MAGIC, not everything else. If a Magic User has a high-level feat with a spell, it will be with magic. Most characters that are primarily magic users have Striking Strengths and Durabilities far inferior to their Attack Potency, unless they are being amplified somehow.

"Squishy Wizard" is one of the most common tropes in fantasy fiction, come on now. Or do you really think Dumbledore is physically Small Building level or whatever because of his spells?

Furthermore, different spells tend to have different results and there is little reason to assume all spells will scale with each other, unless there's specific in-lore reasons to assume such. Spells with different cast times / prep-time to use would also naturally be different AP wise.

So no, Wart's magic wouldn't scale to his physical AP even if it was a Low 2-C feat. Which it isn't.

 

[Jared1111]

Matt just threw a ****** TV Trope at Weeb.

Thats the harshest disrespect I've seen on this site in a long time.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

What’s described here is just curse manipulation. Nothing pertaining to AP as it’s purely a hax ability. By returning Subcon to its natural state, it means defeating Wart will get rid of the curse. Therefore even if Subcon is universe sized, Wart would not be Low 2-C.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Would this give another range upgrade or

 

[00potato]

Matt, that was a tearing into not even I think I could pull off. Hats off to you.

 

[Bobsican]

Would this give another range upgrade or

Depends on if it's accepted as an universe, although at this point that would only be possible with retroactive continuity scaling, which seems to be being denied so far.

 

[Theuser789]

Depends on if it's accepted as an universe, although at this point that would only be possible with retroactive continuity scaling, which seems to be being denied so far.

Why are you ignoring the scan that calls it a universe

 

[00potato]

What was the source?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why are you ignoring the scan that calls it a universe

Where is that from. Nobody has bothered to answer me yet, presumably because they know once the sources are revealed they won't be accepted.

 

[Bobsican]

TBH it's a bit too dubious, it could be taken as just flowery language.

 

[Theuser789]

If the source is fake then you would be right, even if it's irrelevant to my point, but it can't be flowery language when it literally calls it a universe

 

[Bobsican]

At best it would only scale to range.

 

[Theuser789]

Why can't people read, I am not arguing for the tier 2 Wart or that the source is legit, only that it being called a universe means it's a universe

 

[Bobsican]

Oh sorry, on that case, while I feel a bit unsure if we leave the Dream Depot at a side, it could be considered to mean actually an universe as the sentence would sound weirder if it was a figurative for "everything", rather than actually meaning indirectly that it's an universe, this is fair to consider as the verse we're talking about (Mario) has been in such sort of cosmologies already.

 

[00potato]

It doesn’t matter; we don’t even know the source.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

This is Super Mario Bros 2, Dream Depot wasn’t introduced for another 15 years.

 

[Moritzva]

Matt, chill the actual **** out. Now.

 

[Jared1111]

I’m gonna actually defend Matt here and say he’s not acting that out of line, a bit aggressive and confrontational sure, but nothing too bad he needs to chill out. His recent post isn’t even that rude.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I thought it was a joking post like "Man Matt has no chill".

 

[Jared1111]

The “Now.” Didn’t seem like a joke. Seemed pretty direct.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't think I was disrespectful in my latest post. Maybe in the meme but that was tongue 'n cheek.

 

[Ionliosite]

I agree with Matt, Saikou and Moritzva, this very clearly isn't universal, and the evidence is indeed even weaker than on the Culex thread.

 

[liluzivert]

I agree with the upgrade.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Sheesh, just finished reading the thread.

Guess I’ll side with Matt for now.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

'''The argument for the scaling is simply ridiculous, as has been pointed out by Saikou as well. We do not scale characters to their Power Sources in this wiki, mate, at least not anymore.'''

[https://gyazo.com/cb0a3ea0a258fc7a401d34cc2dde67e3 Wart is the] [https://gyazo.com/a9b7141e20d1823e67cd864d2cb227af source of their power.] He is the source of all evil in Subcon, meaning he [https://gyazo.com/e40c4750949aed68c5dc047b63de18fe is the source of the nightmare bombs] [https://gyazo.com/1e09190df59bd27b10af4de406845e6e Mouser uses to destroy sweet dreams,] [https://gyazo.com/e7fe37fd1bbc64acbfc79da160d111c1 the source of the bad dreams and nightmares mentioned here,] [https://gyazo.com/c5b572f5cd6525d4bed4d793f012942c and the source of the evil] [https://gyazo.com/d30838396a127fcb6aaf3fba1e5a7362 that the 8-bits are said to come from.] Not to mention destroying sweet dreams and shooting nightmares/evil dreams from one's mouth would be pretty powerful in their own rights. [https://gyazo.com/7c9558688ff21274f32fadf62c3643d3 He should've made the Ninji, who exist simultaneously throughout multiple dream worlds, which also shows credence to the size of the Subcon,] [https://gyazo.com/1a2dfffbabde569335af7e38f109c9b4 but creating Pansers involved him affecting the entirety of the World of Dreams to populate them there.] [https://gyazo.com/b6c7c84ffc85c4a82ee6eda400b6f771 Cobrats are enemies that appear more often in Toad's version of dream worlds than others, showing more evidence the Subcon is more than just one dreams.] [https://gyazo.com/59117a2639b3e2b50c250d419d56159b Wart also holds sway over the Subspace,] [https://gyazo.com/20c4bd1dac0992cd9d2e112ee42ae3af which is a dark, mirrored version of the dream world.] [https://gyazo.com/05686478d5cb5555e77e4c8d33bfe2f0 Subspace is also just created by that fodder potion you find multiple times in every level.] For those who think it's a single world because it's referred to sometimes as "the World of Dreams", [https://gyazo.com/feda3f5b2b8b6921585107d5cadf613d see this statement.] For those of you that think that it's weird to "backwards scale" the cosmology, to earlier years, the first showing of dream worlds becoming real universes was actually in the [https://gyazo.com/532127d704364be084f1f15e0ca6d2c3 Super Mario Advance] manual, one year before Mario Party 5 came out. Wart's story still hasn't been changed even after the most recent pieces of evidence of this, since it's literally exactly the same in the re-releases in 2020. [https://gyazo.com/382dbad7dddb7965bc75483dc2d0fb1f Even Wart himself is a living nightmare.] I just figured I'd give my input since the argumentation being done here is so bad that even people that I know agree with the premise are agreeing with the rejection. Anywho, have fun.