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It's from a guide called "Super Mario Bros. 2: Inside Out" that was published by Nintendo Power with help from the Japanese staff. Feel free to look into it yourself.
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Wart: Another Low 2-C Enemy
- Thread starter DatOneWeeb
- Start date
- Status
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I can help out by posting a link to a pdf.
I couldn't find part 1, it seems.
I couldn't find part 1, it seems.
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FOR THE RECORD, I think the evidence I put supports a '''2-C''' rating for Wart, not just a '''Low 2-C''' rating.
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The only ones that are applicable to AP are the Mouser feat and possibly the potions (assuming that the sources are even official. In the last thread a lot of debate was had over the usability of stuff like NP and I don’t want to get into that.)
Though the Mouser feat seems vauge because you only really proved the size of Subcon itself as universal (even then that scan doesn’t seem to even call it a universe but the more vauge “world”), the quote mentioning seven “worlds.” Seems to be referring to how in Mario games, sets of levels are always called worlds. In the NSMB games, they are still called worlds but are clearly just part of the same considering that Mario just runs from one to the other and in some they are connected.
The potion feat, and a more in depth look at each scan will have to be for tomorrow evening for me.
Though the Mouser feat seems vauge because you only really proved the size of Subcon itself as universal (even then that scan doesn’t seem to even call it a universe but the more vauge “world”), the quote mentioning seven “worlds.” Seems to be referring to how in Mario games, sets of levels are always called worlds. In the NSMB games, they are still called worlds but are clearly just part of the same considering that Mario just runs from one to the other and in some they are connected.
The potion feat, and a more in depth look at each scan will have to be for tomorrow evening for me.
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Hadou just throws in a bunch of poorly formatted unsourced things and expects people to buy it.
Also we are not using Nintendo Power guides again.
Also we are not using Nintendo Power guides again.
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I fail to see how a tiny ass scan that reads "Mouser destroys sweet dreams with bomb" is universal. Specially since it's a ******* common-ass enemy. It's more logical that since these creatures are running amok on Subcon, they are just destroying dreams by wrecking havock. Not that Mouser's bombs blow up universes.
Also Hadou here literally arguing that Subcon is a multiverse and he uses claims like this and this which are just talking about the in-game worlds that the player must traverse to. Next he'll say that the Mario Planet is multiversal in size because Mario must traverse "Eight Worlds" to get to Bowser's castle.
Also Hadou here literally arguing that Subcon is a multiverse and he uses claims like this and this which are just talking about the in-game worlds that the player must traverse to. Next he'll say that the Mario Planet is multiversal in size because Mario must traverse "Eight Worlds" to get to Bowser's castle.
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It is accepted on this wiki that every dream becomes a real universe in the Marioverse cosmology. I have proven the Subcon is a world made up of more than a single dream and then some. If you wish to contest the notion that dream worlds are universes, make a separate content revision thread for it, because that's already accepted on the profiles. For that matter, a scan was already referring to the dream world Wart was fought in as a universe before I made my reply, I just didn't re-assert it because the only qualm with it was that the source wasn't mentioned, but I mentioned it, now. Also, Wart literally being the source of all evil dreams in the Subcon is a quantifiable creation feat, since we know the dream worlds in the Subcon are real and that dreams in Mario become real universes. It's 2-C.
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Hadou makes sense to me. Matt’s arguments seem to boil down to nitpicking and ignoring statements.
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Sounds like it was accepted on some real shakey terms then because the evidence being provided here is utter shit. And again, scaling Dream Team to Mario 2 is unnaceptable.
No you didn't, stop being dishonest. All you did was prove that there are seven in-game worlds the player traverses. It doesn't make it multiversal.
Apparently a Nintendo Power Guide and we don't use those for Nintendo games.
No it's not. We see how the "evil dreams" are being caused in the game and even in the scans you provided: His minions literally go into the dreams and attack people. That's it. This is how Mouser (A common enemy type) is destroying "Sweet Dreams", because he shows up chucking bombs.
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It is poorly formatted because I'm not used to this forum yet, no reason or relevancy to point that out. It isn't unsourced. I can tell you individually where those scans come from and I already sourced the only one that you asked for up to this point. What a hypocritical nitpicker. Everything either comes from the aforementioned guide from earlier, the manual to Super Mario Bros. 2, or the manual to Super Mario Advance. Very official sources. And yes, we are using Nintendo Power guides again. It was published by Nintendo with help from the Japanese staff.
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It is, it literally is. You just throw a bunch of cropped scans (Not even full pages! That's always a sign people are trying to hide something) and expect people to swallow it. I'm not.
Well you should have sourced all of them. Saying you can source but not sourcing in themselves doesn't make it suddenly okay.
Manuals are fine. Nintendo Power isn't.
IT was rejected last time and it will be rejected here again.
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Check out these universal bombs. Do you really think that the context behind the manual statement that Mouser "destroys sweet dreams" is literally talking about universe busting? It very clearly isn't.
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Because every dream in Mario becomes a real universe. Mouser isn't a "common enemy" either, he's actually the third most powerful entity in the Subcon, a boss that can only be defeated by throwing his own bombs back at him. You clearly know nothing about the basics of the game. You also clearly are unaware of the basics of my argument, since you think I used those two scans you linked to argue Subcon is a multiverse. I used those to argue Subspace is a mirror world parallel to Subcon and that Subspace is a certain size because of that. The amount of dishonesty that went into ridiculing my argument in the form of misinterpreting the stuff I posted solely because you don't even know the context to any of it is actually abominable.
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Liar. Either prove the evidence or stop claiming this is true. Nobody is buying this.
The way you describe a rat that throws bombs as if he's a Marvel Abstract, lmao.
So he's a boss, yes. So what. He throws bombs that don't do much evidently and then you beat him. His bombs look like normal cartoon bombs, and not anything that can blow up universes either.
You literally did. Don't lie about your own arguments. You used the fact that Subcon "contains multiple worlds" to argue it's multiversal in size. Again, dishonest as all hell.
"Abominable".
You talk about this as if I committed a war crime, chill out.
I think the real dishonesty is throwing 20 cropped scans without sources, saying they say things they do not say, and interpreting a single line about "Mouser destroys sweet dreams with his bombs" to imply he's a universe buster.
While not providing any evidence for universal dreams.
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I've literally already addressed the "backwards scaling" to SMB2 point, and you clearly didn't read my reply. The evidence for it literally doesn't even come from Dream Team, ******, it comes from Mario Party 5, and I literally showed evidence of it from Super Mario Advance, which is Wart's latest relevant appearance and the actual game that I'm "backwards scaling" it to, released one year before Mario Party 5. Interesting how you believe the evidence to be shakey when you don't even know the game it comes from. Anyways, this is a derail, make a content revision thread about it if you're gonna contest it.
As for the point about "seven in-game worlds", I used that as a statement where people were arguing the Subcon was just a single world based on a naming fallacy. I literally clarified that, and I never used that as evidence it was a multiverse, so please clearly read the reply, the scans, and re-interpret them because you're misconstruing my points over and over. My evidence was that it is a world made of multiple dream worlds, which each should individually be universes.
We do use Nintendo Power guides for Nintendo games. You're gonna have to show me evidence on-site that we don't use them or give something to actually discredit them. It's a guide published by the same company that made the game worked on by the same people who made the game.
Last paragraph you made is unsubstantiated head canon, an interpretation completely contradictory to the evidence that I presented. Back up your claims or don't make 'em.
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The fact that you also have basic enemies described as "the bearers of bad dreams" and spitting the "bullets of bad dreams" also gives further credence to the fact that they aren't literally destroying the entire dream worlds, but rather ruining them by wrecking havock. The entire problem on Subcon is the fact that Wart took over and unleashed his monsters on it. That's it.
There's nothing about worlds being corrupted or dreams being literally busted on a cosmic level.
There's nothing about worlds being corrupted or dreams being literally busted on a cosmic level.
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I cropped the scans because sometimes it's illegal to just drop full pages of things like that. It also lets me clearly focus on what I'm trying to detail. Feel free to go through the guide and manuals that I've already cited yourself to see if I'm hiding something, because that's completely slanderous to insinuate baselessly.
The main reason I didn't source all of them is because over half the people on this thread actually can tell they come from the manuals whereas some people seem to not know basic Mario lore. I suppose I should've been more courteous to the latter, but I'm really only trying to prove it to the former.
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- Thread starter
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Wait wait wait, what's wrong with using Nintendo Power this time? I already said SMB2 was done for the West, we allow Nintendo Power for ***** sake.
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You didn't, you just said it's okay and moved on. We are not moving on.
Irrelevant either. Backwards scaling all the same.
Also no need for swearing.
Irrelevant as well. It's just a remake of Mario 2. It's the same game with shinier graphics. Not a new installment.
I know. Super Mario Bros 2. From 1988.
You're not trying to prove a positive, ergo I take it as a concession that you can't actually prove it and would rather just stonewall. If there is no evidence that Dream Worlds are universes I won't consider them as such.
So you ADMIT it? One post ago you just said that you didn't use those scans to argue that Subcon is more than one universe, but now you're admitting that you did! You can't stay consistent for two consecutive posts.
You literally just said you used it to "clarify" that Subcon is more than one world. Don't be dishonest. You contradicted yourself literally one phrase ago. Jesus.
I did. Your points make absolutely no sense and would never be valid ground for any upgrade.
Without evidence for why they're universes that is all worthless. Subcon as presented in Super Mario Bros 2 is one world where all dreams happen.
Maybe the Nintendo Games that you and Weeb like because I never seen it be accepted for Zelda and other games. Similar third party material is actually not accepted for other series either so I don't understand what kind of logic this is.
We shouldn't use American Material for Japanese-made games. With Super Mario 2 being an US game it means the US Manual is fine but Nintendo Power is something else entirely. Staff weren't in favor of using it last thread so why would we be in favor now?
You presented no evidence beyond a screenshot that says Mouser throws bombs. Looking at the bombs in-game and also statements from other manuals it is absolutely clear that he does not blow up any dream cosmological structure, that is YOUR headcanon because you want Mario to be as strong as possible. Nobody who is reasonable would read that and come to that conclusion.
Mouser does not destroy anything with his bombs. Not literally.
We use full pages of guides, books and manga all the time. This reasoning is absolutely fake and gay. YOu just don't want to present full context behind things.
It lets your ignore and cherry pick context as much as possible, that's what it does. If you were confident in the information sustaining itself you'd present pages in full.
And this is your problem. You are only concerned with keeping yourself on the echo-chamber and not at all open to opposition. This is why the evidence presented in this thread is so flimsy, even worse than the last thread, because the only people who think it's valid are the people who already started in the position of "Mario is Low 2-C / 2-C / 2-B / 1-A" to begin with.
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- Thread starter
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Also are we seriously going for sizes of dreams again? Subcon was already referred to as a universe, Sub-space is a parallel world to it, and several other bad nightmares exist with Wart being the source of said bad dreams. Again, an ENTIRE CRT would need to be made for these sizes again, because I'm not going what we already have for several characters' profiles.
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I would like to say that I hope everyone is having a good day 
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Yes. Evidently it is something that needs prove. It is an extraordinary claim that needs extraordinary evidence. And just the usage of the word "World" isn't enough. Which is all that's been given so far.
So what. In a Nintendo Power Strategy Guide. The claim in it of itself is vague too, because universes aren't necessarily the size of our universe. That's arbitrary.
So what? It's clearly not that big.
We know how Wart is the source of said bad dreams = His curse and his minions which go out and attack Subcon. It has nothing to do with evil itself as an idea coming from Wart, or him creating nightmare universes by existing. You are selling him as if he's the Marvel Abstract Nightmare when he's a frog wizard.
So you admit to being lazy.
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might as well downgrade every character that says they’re gonna destroy a universe/spacetime without further context because they could be taking over/ruining said universe.
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Yeah, this is a Matt argument that doesn’t hold well without elaboration. Matt himself made the arguement against using Nintendo Power for Culex because it was an English manual for a Japanese game but SMB2 isn’t a Japanese game but a Western game.
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Nintendo Power is a Terciary Source that is official, yes. But it's not the same as a manual that comes with the game itself, which would be a Secondary Source, or the game itself that is primary.
Nintendo Power was notorious back in the day for making stuff up, hyping games that never came out, and also contradicting the actual Japanese games. In the case of Super Mario 2 I don't think the Nintendo Power Guide takes that much precedence.
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Going back to something else Niarobi posted as supposed evidence, Wart being referred to as the “source of all evil” and “the biggest nightmare” are just talking about how he can summon monsters to terrorize the residents of Subcon.
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Are we seriously saying universes aren't the size... of universes? Again? Do you know how idiotic that sounds?
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Pocket Universes. Baby Universes. Simulation Universes.
Plenty of things that can be called universes aren't necessarily the size of our universe.
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Aside from the fact I kinda absolutely hate this kind of dream scaling in any verse, I am not seeing anything in the OP that qualifies as Low 2-C without going into some super context soup I don't care to engage. Thus far I agree with what Saik, Mori and co. said.
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Yeah no, I don't see how something called a universe means something that isn't one just because it can mean something else
Like a universe is a universe, we shouldn't assume it isn't one just because "lowball lol"
Like a universe is a universe, we shouldn't assume it isn't one just because "lowball lol"
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A single mention saying that Mario and friends must "Save the universe" in the same page where it explains that Mario and friends are going to Subcon is not sufficient proof that Subcon is universal in size, even assuming that:
1. The statement comes from a reliable primary source and not Nintendo Power
2. There is any universal feat here in the first place with Wart
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If the Nintendo Power isn't contradicting what the game is presenting, it should be fine to use. It would be a different case if the game itself said it was just like planetary in size at best and then Nintendo Power comes in with an "actually" statement, but it isn't the case here.
I'm somewhat iffy on this stuff being Uni, but I don't agree you can simply discredit the universe-sized Subcon statement from Nintendo Power just because it's not in the game or guide.
Also, plz chill out Matt. Making memes to insult your opposition doesn't make your case. It's pretty easy to just do the same thing to you as well.
I'm somewhat iffy on this stuff being Uni, but I don't agree you can simply discredit the universe-sized Subcon statement from Nintendo Power just because it's not in the game or guide.
Also, plz chill out Matt. Making memes to insult your opposition doesn't make your case. It's pretty easy to just do the same thing to you as well.
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Yet again you are backtracking after your genuily terrible reasoning of "universes aren't universes", I don't care that it's vague or whatever, I am simply talking about your arguments that it being called a universe isn't enough proof that something is a universe, which is dumb, now the source or the context I am not arguing, only your dumb logic
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The statement is too vague and there's no universal feat to scale to begin with.
Nintendo Power Guides are secondary sources at best. We don't allow similar third party material for other verses so Mario isn't getting special treatment.
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Stop with the insults. I explained why something being called a universe isn't enough to be accepted as universal on the wiki. The word has more than one meaning. It's not stupid it's straightforward.
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No, no you are not using the "insulting" tatics with me, you have been insulting everyone that disagrees with you with your self-righteous posts yet you think that saying that your "universes aren't universes" is dumb is a insult than yes, I will keep insulting you, I will be your "villain"
Also no, you haven't proved why universes aren't universes, this argument has been refuted every time you brought it up, going "I did tho" isn't going to cut it
Also no, you haven't proved why universes aren't universes, this argument has been refuted every time you brought it up, going "I did tho" isn't going to cut it
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Can you plz tell me an example of a non-VS Debating author that is legitimately going to write the statement "X is a universe" and suddenly not make it the very general perception that is the observable universe?
I can understand skepticism on the word "world," but you are grasping at straws really hard right now.
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So you are just devolving into personal attacks and not arguments.
I am sorry but it is not dumb. The premise of your argument is wrong. Never in the Nintendo Power Guide is Subcon directly stated to be a Universe, rather we get the line "Mario must save the universe" which is far more broad than anything else. This line could be used to refer to any Mario Game and it'd still be applicable.
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I've seen it multiple times in Star Wars Legends if that's what you wanna hear. I also seen universe used in some manga to refer to places that are actually small.
If you want to use super obscure stuff, Unicorn Jelly has universes that are only 10 lightyears in width.
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