Hadou mentioned it in his argument
I went over it several times. Mouser has no evidence of dream destruction, at all. He "destroys sweet dreams" with his bombs because he is terrorizing the Subcon, not because he can blow up dimensions.
I don’t know how this fourm works so all I can tell you is to scroll up. Sorry.
It is.
That’s a much better argument. Matt just said the bombs don’t look like universe level when stuff like that happens a lot in fiction.
I also talked about the same thing. That "destroys sweet dreams" isn't literal and it's more a metaphor that he brings harm and nightmares.
You said that the bombs don’t look like universe+ and that you never see him do it in game.
Elaborate.
"He literally shows up and throws bombs and this ruins the good dreams, not because his bombs are destroying entire dimensions"
Exactly. You’re saying the bombs aren’t universe level therefore they can’t destroy a dream world and can only ruin it.
Anyway my last response to this before I sleep is that it just says he’s destroying dreams without further context. Saying he’s just ruining the dreams would be an assumption since nothing really proves that’s what he’s referring to. If it said ruin sweet dreams then sure
No. It's just one line that's not literal. You need more evidence than one line in it of itself. His bombs demonstrably don't have the range to destroy dreams and if you look at the Mouser quote in juxtaposition of all the other enemy quotes from the manual they all say that they are "bringing in bad dreams" or something by wrecking havock. It's not "Mouser blows up universe", that's such a leap in logic that no one but a versus debater would make.
This argument again? Unless we're assuming Wart's magic used to amplify their energy was HEAVILY downplayed by an infinite amount, it SHOULD backscale. Saying he would be suddenly tired is an invalid argument since again, he'd have to severely downplay it. Hell, I could play Devil's Advocate and say Wart had plenty of time to recover, you still have plenty of levels and bosses before you go and fight Wart. It's even stated enemies will go out of their way to do everything they can in order to defeat everyone. And seriously? A Solar Panel is a battery that uses sun energy, sure, but it has a limit on how much it absorbs. Nothing implies that's the case for amplifying an enemy.
Yeah, and? Not being equal to someone doesn't mean you can't backscale, just look at any scaling chain. Okay, so prove that's the case for Wart's enemy or it's just your personal headcanon. Inb4 he responds, "No, that's YOUR headcanon".
Because magic attacks in which the magic can cause powerful thinks scale to it. Crazy, huh?
I like how this entire section doesn't go for my argument, but instead whine and say it makes no sense. Saying it's a figure of speech is more headcanon, why would they do that when they're clearly panicking about this and are in desperate needs of help?
Oh, so you've seen how Subcon looks before it was took over? Would love to see it. What would his magic even do at that case? If it were only about trapping the people of Subcon in a jar, what magic would be needed there? Those jars are all over the place and can be entered at anytime. No magic needed there. The monsters weren't created by his curse either. So what's the point in even bringing up a curse? Neither of the arguments prove he needs magic.
Because his death ultimately stops the curse, that's why. I had a reason, which I will explain below.
Could you post something that shows our standards say they need to instant? I can't find anything that's stated it must be done within a second, no less.
This you?
Because this isn't an RPG like Dragon Quest, Persona, or EarthBound where you increase your magic attacks as you go on. It scales physically because the cast takes hits from the magic bubbles. He's also called strong and that you need all of your strength to beat him. I mean as long as you agree his magic attack scale, then I'm fine with that. His durability however would still scale to the cast as he's unaffected by the vegetables unlike any other boss. You have to shove them down his throat.
Yes, but in those cases, they have examples showing this. Wart is not that case. It'd be the other way around, prove the potency is varying. You're the one claiming his levels of magic vary, so you need to prove it.
You ask for scans and will deny them regardless? Meh, in-canon they should be nothing different about them. Otherwise we wouldn't even say retcons are a thing that change up lore. Still using them.
You giving your thoughts does not mean I auto agree. Once again, in the same scan, Subcon was stated to be both a universe and world. So I can use both in the same context. If both are used in the same context, there's no reason to ignore it.
If it's another world that's separated from the main universe, has tons of stars all over, and is called a universe... it's pretty ******* obvious it's a universe. What more do you suddenly want? "bring back peace to the universe" outright states its a universe. They could've said world and you wouldn't bat an eye, but when the proof is blatant, then use headcanon.
Only you ignore Wart never used magic to create these enemies at all, some of these enemies already existed before and only work with Wart.
Because I was saying these monsters exist separate from Subcon. Nothing states the evil dreams are within Subcon, that's still your own headcanon.
Don't put words in my mouth. I said these dreams already existed prior to Subcon being cursed, and Wart was the source of those dreams. Plain and simple, I wasn't saying he made existing dreams as bad.
"shooting people as the cause of dreams becoming nightmares"
Yes. Evil dreams exist. "Evil" dreams. Wart is the "source" of all evil in the dream worlds. Putting two and two?
Blaze FRA
Meh, it was just there for proof evil dreams are a thing.
Hold your horses there, this isn't the Dream Depot were that actually has a thing saying it's a place where all dreams go to. Nowhere does it state that at all for Subcon.
But did you read it? It's a range feat, they state it's created for the world of dreams, in which they extend to all over the skies.
In order for him to even affect them, he'd have to do it within two separate dreams. Yet again another feat to prove Wart's magic has massive range.
He should be the source of evil dreams that are already mentioned, doesn't have to be every bad dream in existence. Plus there is nothing proven these bad dreams were just pre-existing dreams, and I've mentioned the other stuff above.
for a series prone to take 4th wall breaks literally and self aware they are from a game from our irl perspective (sometimes, looking at you bestovius, lord crump, gearmo, lubba,....bowser one of the worst) its not that far out there lol. regardles, its not enough on its own since meta logic gets shit on regularly with equalized irl dimensional interaction given bestovius and us irl humans being "another dimension" in their multiverse, which would also be in the group of all dimensions affected by the void, even if there is that screen with that scene with birdo to the left getting affected by the blast hinting it is really real too when it also cuts into that screen and blacks out.
Look man I understand what you’re saying and one part of me agrees, but with this sites rules I don’t think this is correct.
Making enemies doesn’t mean he’s altering the physics of the dream world. Changing it back to its natural state just means the enemies are gone which isn’t universe level. The source of bad dreams part maybe but you gotta source that
This wasn't my argument at all. If a character can "destoy a space-time continuum" then that character would need the range to do so. Mouser evidently lacks the range so immediately I'm of the assumption that the statement about "destroys sweet dreams" isn't literal. DDM explained it in way further depth than I could as well.
Like I said the range in game isn’t relevant. For one thing it’s obviously a game mechanic and universe busters not destroying the universe when they’re fighting is a common thing in fiction.
If Wart is Low 2-C, BIG IF, he would have to exhaust all his power to empower an enemy to his level. Yes. That's actually how it works. We don't assume being powered by a source means you scale to the source, I'm sorry if you think that's the case but it has no logic.
Inversion of the Burden of Proof Fallacy.
Plenty of the scans says that Wart used his magic to summon and /or control these enemies, and that he commands then. The enemies weren't there before Wart showed up. It's 1 + 1 baby.
So you think Wart is an immortal entity that existed since the dawn of time and is the source of all bad dreams in existence and not just some evil frog wizard? Can you prove that Wart is this abstract entity you speak of?
No, don't be dishonest and don't put words in my mouth.
It has nothing to do with AP, I already went over how Wart is bringing bad dreams into Subcon. He's not creating dimensions.
I'M GLAD WE AGREE. Subcon and the Dream Depot are very different things and I feel people are converting the lore of the later into the former. The Dream Depot is definitely a multiversal place that houses several dimensions. Subcon is a Dream World singular. The lore of SMB2 USA and Mario Party 5 are incongruent with each other, probably because the former was written in America as a reskin of a game that wasn't even Mario to begin with, and the later was made in Japan
Yes, Wart created one type of plant life in the Dream World. And mate, "they extend all over the skies" isn't universal range. It's not even planetary range, I don't see how this is evidence to support it.
Or Wart went into Sub-Space and cursed / mind-controlled them there, and then commanded them to attack Subcon. He doesn't have to do it from his chair in Subcon. This doesn't prove cross-dimensional range.
Range is required to physically bust a universe which you insist Mouser can do. You can be low 2-C and have small range (Scaling) but if you are actually blowing up universes Beerus style you need range.
sorry for the sus example tho I’m sure there’s plenty of other examples of this happening in fiction. Just the first thing that came to mind.
This tbh.
Again, sorry for the bad example, but I still think my point stands.
