The argument for the scaling is simply ridiculous, as has been pointed out by Saikou as well. We do not scale characters to their Power Sources in this wiki, mate, at least not anymore. Being empowered by a magic artifact or a spell doesn't necessarily mean that you are using the full extent of the thingy's power, or else all its energy would literally run out the moment the character attacked. It would be like saying that electrical devices in your house such as a computer or a lightbulb "scale to the full power of the reactor powering your entire town". Or worse, to say that a Solar Panel is 4-C because it's powered by the sun.
This argument again? Unless we're assuming Wart's magic used to amplify their energy was HEAVILY downplayed by an infinite amount, it SHOULD backscale. Saying he would be suddenly tired is an invalid argument since again, he'd have to severely downplay it. Hell, I could play Devil's Advocate and say Wart had plenty of time to recover, you still have plenty of levels and bosses before you go and fight Wart. It's even stated enemies will go out of their way to do everything they can in order to defeat everyone. And seriously? A Solar Panel is a battery that uses sun energy, sure, but it has a limit on how much it absorbs. Nothing implies that's the case for amplifying an enemy.
Letting that aside, Wart's minions are EVIDENTLY not as powerful as he is, as he is their boss and also the main villain and final enemy you face in the game. A villain empowering his minions is a common trope in fiction that does not denote that they are as powerful as the villain. They can't be in order for Wart to still be the main threat.
Yeah, and? Not being equal to someone doesn't mean you can't backscale, just look at any scaling chain. Okay, so prove that's the case for Wart's enemy or it's just your personal headcanon. Inb4 he responds, "No, that's YOUR headcanon".
And you also haven't addressed how Wart's "bubbles" scale to his AP, but more on that later.
Because magic attacks in which the magic can cause powerful thinks scale to it. Crazy, huh?
THIS IS NOT HOW LANGUAGE WORKS. Seriously, the fact that one word can be used to refer to something in one context doesn't necessarily mean that it will apply to that same definition under any other context. Seriously, nobody but Versus Debaters think like this. They try to prove the meaning of words across an entire fictional universe by finding one time where it was used in that context and then try to apply that to every other usage of that word in all instances in that series. This makes no sense whatsoever and is absolutely ridiculous once you apply it to non-versus debate issues.
I like how this entire section doesn't go for my argument, but instead whine and say it makes no sense. Saying it's a figure of speech is more headcanon, why would they do that when they're clearly panicking about this and are in desperate needs of help?
Leaving that aside, the subject of "State" in the case of Super Mario Bros 2 evidently does not refer to the entire spatial fabric of Subcon, as you are insisting that it does. The scenery of Subcon is evidently not altered by Wart's magic, you are still traversing Subcon as it normally is, the only issue is that it is currently under the rule of Wart and overrun with his evil minions. The "natural state" that Mario and friends are tasked with repairing is the freedom of Subcon's people, not a cosmological structure being corrupted. Subcon wasn't turned into a distorted nightmare realm under Wart's power, no, he just took over it.
Oh, so you've seen how Subcon looks before it was took over? Would love to see it. What would his magic even do at that case? If it were only about trapping the people of Subcon in a jar, what magic would be needed there? Those jars are all over the place and can be entered at anytime. No magic needed there. The monsters weren't created by his curse either. So what's the point in even bringing up a curse? Neither of the arguments prove he needs magic.
This argument is really bad too... As it provides no source whatsoever for the claim being made. You're effectively saying that "It would be a very short timeframe as the thing I'm saying has a short timeframe implies it takes him a short time". You're literally arguing that the assumption proves the assumption.
Because his death ultimately stops the curse, that's why. I had a reason, which I will explain below.
Leaving that aside... It's also a very bad argument in it of itself, as well? Weeb here is conceding that Wart's curse took him a "short timeframe" to cast, but it still denotes a timeframe, meaning that Weeb implictly agrees that it isn't something Wart can just do with a snap of his fingers. Rather, it requires specific time and casting, even if brief.
Even assuming a random timeframe of 5 minutes for the casting this would still not scale to Wart's normal magic power as it took him 5 minutes to do so. It doesn't matter that the timeframe was brief, it still wouldn't scale. In VSBW the standard assumed timeframe for Attack Potency is one second, as that is the timeframe behing a Watt (Joule/second), which is how energy is actually measured in real life.
Could you post something that shows our standards say they need to instant? I can't find anything that's stated it must be done within a second, no less.
Finally, the curse being lifted with his death only denotes that WArt was personally responsible for it. It was his magic so it goes away with him, natural. The only way it would PHYSICALLY scale is if the reason behind the curse is that Wart is literally so fat and ugly and evil that his very presence corrupted Subcon, which doesn't seem to be the case.
If you have the power to manipulate something and the death reverses it, that implies it's on that level. "such as warping and distorting the entirety of the structure in question,
sustaining its existence with one's own, merging the structure with another one, etc." And to clarify, he's sustaining the dream's curse which affects Subcon, simple.
I'm... Genuinely not sure where Weeb is coming from him. It's like he's arguing from a completely separate parallel universe and I'm concerned over what past experiences led him to think like this.
This you?
I mean, seriously, Magic varying from natural power is up there with the most basic assumptions in the entire wiki. Magic Users have their feats scale TO THEIR MAGIC, not everything else. If a Magic User has a high-level feat with a spell, it will be with magic. Most characters that are primarily magic users have Striking Strengths and Durabilities far inferior to their Attack Potency, unless they are being amplified somehow.
Because this isn't an RPG like Dragon Quest, Persona, or EarthBound where you increase your magic attacks as you go on. It scales physically because the cast takes hits from the magic bubbles. He's also called strong and that you need all of your strength to beat him. I mean as long as you agree his magic attack scale, then I'm fine with that. His durability however would still scale to the cast as he's unaffected by the vegetables unlike any other boss. You have to shove them down his throat.
"Squishy Wizard" is one of the most common tropes in fantasy fiction, come on now. Or do you really think Dumbledore is physically Small Building level or whatever because of his spells?
Furthermore, different spells tend to have different results and there is little reason to assume all spells will scale with each other, unless there's specific in-lore reasons to assume such. Spells with different cast times / prep-time to use would also naturally be different AP wise.
Yes, but in those cases, they have examples showing this. Wart is not that case. It'd be the other way around, prove the potency is varying. You're the one claiming his levels of magic vary, so you need to prove it.
Can you explain why instead of just saying that "People agree with it so it is"? Please?
I want to know the evidence.
Because from my perspective of these last two threads, "Mario Supporters" agree is not a good measure of anything, I'm sorry.
And again, who cares, we are not backwards scaling cosmology back to Mario 2, this was already established in this thread, I'm sorry you still want to do this. I'm not.
You ask for scans and will deny them regardless? Meh, in-canon they should be nothing different about them. Otherwise we wouldn't even say retcons are a thing that change up lore. Still using them.
Okay so I already brought up the stuff from SMB2 about Subcon being called a universe and it also being referred to as a world many times, meaning world in-context stands for universe. I've also shown they have a starry sky and day-night system.
In Mario Party 5, as stated before, there are dreams, most notably Future Dream, that are entire universes. This is stated both in-manual and by Misstar.
Here we see all dreams are similar in size.
Dreambert also refers to dreams and reality as "worlds", comparing the two.
The Zeekeeper creates a portal, in which Dreambert comes out and states that he's actually crossing dimensions.
There also exists many stars and constellations inside these dreams.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_omH47LFAxs&feature=youtu.be&t=2838
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvysBQl1kOk&feature=youtu.be&t=1017
Dreams are also displayed having their own separate time between there and the real world.
https://youtu.be/o47tGo5FDtY?t=536
The word "World" doesn't mean universe Weeb we've been over this. All you're saying is that it's a word. It having stars just means it may be a pocket dimension, and it having time is true of like every dimension in fiction save for those that don't and it's not indicative of size. Time isn't spatial.
You giving your thoughts does not mean I auto agree. Once again, in the same scan, Subcon was stated to be both a universe and world. So I can use both in the same context. If both are used in the same context, there's no reason to ignore it.
The Subcon has no direct evidence that it is a universe in it of itself. I'm sorry. All it has is a Nintendo Power quote that says "Mario must save the universe". That's it. Nobody has addressed this yet.
If it's another world that's separated from the main universe, has tons of stars all over, and is called a universe... it's pretty ******* obvious it's a universe. What more do you suddenly want? "bring back peace to the universe" outright states its a universe. They could've said world and you wouldn't bat an eye, but when the proof is blatant, then use headcanon.
It literally is. It's the only tangible effect of the curse that is established in the game.
Only you ignore Wart never used magic to create these enemies at all, some of these enemies already existed before and only work with Wart.
So what. Subcon has dreams. Evil dreams happening now because of Wart's meddling has nothing to do with him creating universes like you insist he does.
Because I was saying these monsters exist separate from Subcon. Nothing states the evil dreams are within Subcon, that's still your own headcanon.
I don't think the curse is involved with existing bad dreams, I said the opposite. I think the curse, evidently by the evidence being posted (which you yourself have shared and which I will address now soon) does not show that Wart "making good dreams bad" has to do with any cosmic reality warping or dream manipulation. It's a very physical process that has to do with his forces terrorizing the dreams.
Don't put words in my mouth. I said these dreams already existed prior to Subcon being cursed, and Wart was the source of those dreams. Plain and simple, I wasn't saying he made existing dreams as bad.
One. Gray Snifits are stated to shoot "Nightmare Bullets". Again this shows how literally physical Wart's curse is. He has literal minions shooting people as the cause of dreams becoming nightmares. Mario defeats these guys and it stops. Pidgits are also said to be the "bearers of bad dreams", ignoring that this is just super vague it also doesn't mean much at all. They just soar through the sky on magic carpets and attack people, again.
"shooting people as the cause of dreams becoming nightmares"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cHi1CaSlDo
Matt, are you implying that these characters can make good dreams become bad dreams, meaning they're manipulating it and Wart is the source of all that? Thanks. Before you say I am putting words in your mouth, you saying the curse is physical only helps my case in you saying he's changing Subcon itself. Both scans either way are meant to prove that bad dreams already exist, not sure what else you're trying to debate.
Two. This just says that he is a part of a "Club from evil dreams". This just confirm that evil dreams exist and that this enemy comes from them. It has NOTHING tying it to Wart's AP. Whatsoever.
Yes. Evil dreams exist. "Evil" dreams. Wart is the "source" of all evil in the dream worlds. Putting two and two?
Three. Another Snifit. he is describing as "spiting the bullets of evil dreams from his mouth". Again,
do you see how physical and literal Wart's curse is? The dudes are literally running amok shooting people. It isn't a cosmic / spatial corruption of the dreamscape. How can you not see this.
Blaze FRA
Four. Mouser stuff. Mouser is stated to be a "bomber of bad dreams that destroys good dreams". He literally shows up and throws bombs and this ruins the good dreams, not because his bombs
are destroying entire dimensions,
they evidently don't have that range, they are normal bombs, but because by throwing bombs around like a freaking terrorist he is (pardon the pun) terrorizing Subcon and putting an end to good dreams. I hope this is well explained.
Five. This is just the same statement reworded. Mouser throws bombs that "destroy sweet dreams". I understand that you want to argue Mouser is a universe buster but this ain't it. He isn't destroying any dream worlds. We never see him do anything remotely similar, your interpretation of what he does is incongruent with the game.
Meh, it was just there for proof evil dreams are a thing.
The Cobrat image merely says that it appears on Toad's dreams, yes. As established in Super Mario Bros 2, all dreams take place in Subcon as all the four characters literally end up there in their sleep. Certainly multiple dreams exist in Subcon but the evidence presented in the actual game isn't that Subcon is a multiverse or a collection of dimensions, just a broad "Dream World" where all dreams happen.
Hold your horses there, this isn't the Dream Depot were that actually has a thing saying it's a place where all dreams go to. Nowhere does it state that at all for Subcon.
But did
you read it? It's a range feat, they state it's created for the world of dreams, in which they extend to all over the skies.
In order for him to even affect them, he'd have to do it within two separate dreams. Yet again another feat to prove Wart's magic has massive range.
Bad Dreams exist yes, but Wart isn't the source of all evil dreams in existence. He's the source of the new evil dreams that emerged from his terrorizing of Subcon.
He should be the source of evil dreams that are already mentioned, doesn't have to be every bad dream in existence. Plus there is nothing proven these bad dreams were just pre-existing dreams, and I've mentioned the other stuff above.
