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Warhammer 40K Discussion

The Emperor and Horus in this book are at least Universal. This doesn't scale to their "base" stats outside of this book, as both are so glutted on The Warp for their final confrontation that they are the cusp of ascending to godhood.

Sanguinius doesn't scale to Near-Apotheosis Horus but he does manage to fight "Regular" Chaos Horus when Horus holds back against him.
 
Yeah. The Emperor almost turned into the Dark King to fight Horus by glutting himself in the Warp, but he was talked out of it, which led to his sacrifice.

But what has The Emperor been doing for the past 10,000+ years? He's been strapped to the Throne, feeding off a constant supply of soul-energy while also receiving worship from a galaxy full of humans. His ascension is nigh, one way or the other.
 
I'm already mentally preparing myself to read the words "end" and "death" another 50 times. Also praying the book ends with something along the lines of "I was there the day Horus slew the Emperor" or "I was there the day the Emperor slew Horus"
 
Definitely needs a call back to the first line especially after all these years. Would probably be nearly as iconic as the DTs first line. I just want to see what really happened regarding the whole lone guardsman thing, hopefully getting rid of all the perpetual stuff
 
Grand_Astartes said:
Definitely needs a call back to the first line especially after all these years. Would probably be nearly as iconic as the DTs first line. I just want to see what really happened regarding the whole lone guardsman thing, hopefully getting rid of all the perpetual stuff
Click to expand...
They're seemingly going with every interpretation of it, from an Astartes (Loken) or Terminator (Caecaltus Dusk since he wears Aquilon Terminator armor), a Custodes (Caecaltus Dusk) and the lone Guardsman (Ollanius). Who knows who's going to technically be the "last one" since all of these dudes are Heresy originals and we don't have info on them past it.

As for the perpetual stuff, Ollanius, Grammaticus, and Leetu are the last lingering threads and given we know literally nothing about them past the Heresy, possible they either die (which is pretty likely in Ollanius' case) or just go into hiding or something for Abnett to bring up later because he loves his perpetual shit
 
AbaddonTheDisappointment said:
They're seemingly going with every interpretation of it, from an Astartes (Loken) or Terminator (Caecaltus Dusk since he wears Aquilon Terminator armor), a Custodes (Caecaltus Dusk) and the lone Guardsman (Ollanius). Who knows who's going to technically be the "last one" since all of these dudes are Heresy originals and we don't have info on them past it.

As for the perpetual stuff, Ollanius, Grammaticus, and Leetu are the last lingering threads and given we know literally nothing about them past the Heresy, possible they either die (which is pretty likely in Ollanius' case) or just go into hiding or something for Abnett to bring up later because he loves his perpetual shit
Click to expand...
Honestly now that you mention it, I think Garviel would kind of be cool to see as well instead. I honestly wouldn't doubt that they're just hiding off somewhere, especially since like you said Abnett is pretty much the main perpetual dude. After everything wraps up it will be a big turning point lore-wise, so I'd imagine they'd come up in 40K soon.
 
So nice feats there for chaos horus the guys can fight and access higher dimensions fought the emperor across various points in times, both of them fighting on a metaphysical level, using their various aspects, even then horus was said to be superior since he is infinite and the emperor finite, in terms of warp power.We finally get answered what the terminius decree is and as theorisied it is the virus made by basil fo that can kill primarchs and astartes.More mention of the war having infinite dimensions
 
Horus Vs The Emperor summary:

The fight begins with a physical clash in Horus’s Throne Room. The infinite expanse of darkness that made his throne recedes giving way to a physical space, as Horus focuses his power to face his father instead. Their first clash "shakes the world", meaning the infinite dimension in the Warp that Horus has turned his throne room into, and shatters the darkness.They clash with such speed and power that the onlookers can’t perceive or hear the fight, and if they even step close to their duel they will be annihilated, the concentration of power around them being like walking into the core of a dying star. There is no sound to the battle, just a constant staccato white noise, because they are hitting each other so hard that the sound of one clash is engulfed by the next, and on and on.The Emperor strikes with the power of a blazing supernova, but Horus is mightier, he has the power of a Black Hole that devours all light, and he is winning. He is fueled by the infinite power of Chaos, while The Emperor's own power is finite.


But of course, Horus and The Emperor aren’t just clashing physically, their battle is psychic and spiritual, happening in the Warp, taking place not just across the three spatial dimensions of Realspace, but across the infinite dimensions and planes of the Empyrean. The Emperor strikes Horus along the eighteenth angle of non-space, and Horus diverts a blow to the sixty-sixth oblique direction, then dodges a killing blow by sidestepping into an adjacent reality. Their fight cannot be perceived by mortal senses, the previously described fight is just the slightest sliver of what is actually going on.

Eventually, The Emperor starts to take advantage of the fact that in Horus’s realm of Chaos, all of time and space has collapsed into a single isochronal instant, a realm where direction and duration has no meaning, and so he takes the fight beyond just the current time and place, to instead fight Horus across everywhere and EVERYWHEN.

Suddenly, Horus and the Emperor are on the planet Cthonia, on the day of Horus’s finding. This isn’t a projection or a memory, they are literally in Cthonia. Then they are in the Himalayan mountains before Imperial Times, then in Ultramar during the Horus Heresy, on Ullanor during the Great Crusade, on Moloch when The Emperor made his deal with the Chaps Gods, on ancient Terra during World War I, on on Ancient Greece, or in Prehistoric Times, and more and more all across the galaxy.All of these duels are happening simultaneously, with Horus killing the Emperor along several battlefronts, and the Emperor winning others. Each battle is just an aspect of the Greater Duel, for either force to win, their opponent has to be killed on all battlefronts.

The fight then escalates again, with The Emperor takes the fight to the symbolic and archetypal level, summoning his Deck of Tarot cards, casting each card to summons aspects of himself and of humanity. The Angel, The Pilgrim, The Final Wall, The Throne, etc etc. Horus responds by summoning his own Tarot Deck, built out of Chaos. He summons The Daemon, The Lunar Wolf, The Spectre, The Lightning Tower, The Shattered World. These aspects clash across metaphysical planes of the Warp, engaging in symbolic combat.

In one plane, Horus and The Emperor are wolves hunting each other in the forest, in another they are ancient Hellenic warriors with bronze shields and spears, in another they are planets and suns clashing in the void, in another they are a Hawk and a Serpent, in one The Emperor is a Knight fighting a Dragon, in another they are gunslingers facing off in a desert, in one they are naked cavemen killing each other with rocks.Horus's Deck is stronger. The Emperor's deck represents aspects of Himself, His Sons, and Humanity, while Horus's cards are embodiments of Chaos, which is Infinite and omnipresent and primordial. One by one, The Emperor's aspects begin to be destroyed, until he only has a handful of cards left.

Standing victorious, Horus starts to beat The Emperor down, torturing and maiming him sadistically, slicing his throat, breaking his bones, cracking his ribs hard enough to puncture his lung, gouging his left eye out, smashing his skull, etc etc. He leaves him broken on the brink of death, at which point he extends a hand, offering to heal The Emperor so long as he accepts a place at his side.

At this point, the onlookers actually attack Horus. The Emperor's last remaining Custodian charges at Horus but is smacked aside, same for the Loken, the Space Marine. John Grammaticus uses a Word of Power to halt Horus in place for a few seconds so he can be pushed away from The Emperor, but this too is futile. Finally, Ollanius Perrson stands between The Emperor and Horus with nothing but a lasrifle, shooting Horus until he too is evaporated by his talon.

Meanwhile on Terra, Euphrati Keeler has 2 million pilgrims praying for The Emperor at the Astronomicon, and their faith is enough to relight the psychic fire of the beacon. All 2 million pilgrims are immolated, and their faith and their soul is sent towards The Emperor. The Emperor channels the power of their souls and their faith into a focused psychic beam that hits Horus as his guard is down, pushing the influence of Chaos away from Horus for a brief moment. Horus, now himself again, begs for The Emperor to kill him. Half-dead and mutilated, The Emperor lunges forward and stabs his heart with the Athame Dagger, channeling all of his remaining power into it, obliterating Horus’s soul forever.

Horus’s death sends a psychic shockwave through Realspace and The Warp, shattering and breaking the various different planes of unreality that they were previously fighting on across the Warp, and making stars across the rim of the galaxy spontaneously explode in supernovas.

Then The Emperor faints and collapses on top of his son's corpse.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Horus Vs The Emperor summary:

The fight begins with a physical clash in Horus’s Throne Room. The infinite expanse of darkness that made his throne recedes giving way to a physical space, as Horus focuses his power to face his father instead. Their first clash "shakes the world", meaning the infinite dimension in the Warp that Horus has turned his throne room into, and shatters the darkness.They clash with such speed and power that the onlookers can’t perceive or hear the fight, and if they even step close to their duel they will be annihilated, the concentration of power around them being like walking into the core of a dying star. There is no sound to the battle, just a constant staccato white noise, because they are hitting each other so hard that the sound of one clash is engulfed by the next, and on and on.The Emperor strikes with the power of a blazing supernova, but Horus is mightier, he has the power of a Black Hole that devours all light, and he is winning. He is fueled by the infinite power of Chaos, while The Emperor's own power is finite.


But of course, Horus and The Emperor aren’t just clashing physically, their battle is psychic and spiritual, happening in the Warp, taking place not just across the three spatial dimensions of Realspace, but across the infinite dimensions and planes of the Empyrean. The Emperor strikes Horus along the eighteenth angle of non-space, and Horus diverts a blow to the sixty-sixth oblique direction, then dodges a killing blow by sidestepping into an adjacent reality. Their fight cannot be perceived by mortal senses, the previously described fight is just the slightest sliver of what is actually going on.

Eventually, The Emperor starts to take advantage of the fact that in Horus’s realm of Chaos, all of time and space has collapsed into a single isochronal instant, a realm where direction and duration has no meaning, and so he takes the fight beyond just the current time and place, to instead fight Horus across everywhere and EVERYWHEN.

Suddenly, Horus and the Emperor are on the planet Cthonia, on the day of Horus’s finding. This isn’t a projection or a memory, they are literally in Cthonia. Then they are in the Himalayan mountains before Imperial Times, then in Ultramar during the Horus Heresy, on Ullanor during the Great Crusade, on Moloch when The Emperor made his deal with the Chaps Gods, on ancient Terra during World War I, on on Ancient Greece, or in Prehistoric Times, and more and more all across the galaxy.All of these duels are happening simultaneously, with Horus killing the Emperor along several battlefronts, and the Emperor winning others. Each battle is just an aspect of the Greater Duel, for either force to win, their opponent has to be killed on all battlefronts.

The fight then escalates again, with The Emperor takes the fight to the symbolic and archetypal level, summoning his Deck of Tarot cards, casting each card to summons aspects of himself and of humanity. The Angel, The Pilgrim, The Final Wall, The Throne, etc etc. Horus responds by summoning his own Tarot Deck, built out of Chaos. He summons The Daemon, The Lunar Wolf, The Spectre, The Lightning Tower, The Shattered World. These aspects clash across metaphysical planes of the Warp, engaging in symbolic combat.

In one plane, Horus and The Emperor are wolves hunting each other in the forest, in another they are ancient Hellenic warriors with bronze shields and spears, in another they are planets and suns clashing in the void, in another they are a Hawk and a Serpent, in one The Emperor is a Knight fighting a Dragon, in another they are gunslingers facing off in a desert, in one they are naked cavemen killing each other with rocks.Horus's Deck is stronger. The Emperor's deck represents aspects of Himself, His Sons, and Humanity, while Horus's cards are embodiments of Chaos, which is Infinite and omnipresent and primordial. One by one, The Emperor's aspects begin to be destroyed, until he only has a handful of cards left.

Standing victorious, Horus starts to beat The Emperor down, torturing and maiming him sadistically, slicing his throat, breaking his bones, cracking his ribs hard enough to puncture his lung, gouging his left eye out, smashing his skull, etc etc. He leaves him broken on the brink of death, at which point he extends a hand, offering to heal The Emperor so long as he accepts a place at his side.

At this point, the onlookers actually attack Horus. The Emperor's last remaining Custodian charges at Horus but is smacked aside, same for the Loken, the Space Marine. John Grammaticus uses a Word of Power to halt Horus in place for a few seconds so he can be pushed away from The Emperor, but this too is futile. Finally, Ollanius Perrson stands between The Emperor and Horus with nothing but a lasrifle, shooting Horus until he too is evaporated by his talon.

Meanwhile on Terra, Euphrati Keeler has 2 million pilgrims praying for The Emperor at the Astronomicon, and their faith is enough to relight the psychic fire of the beacon. All 2 million pilgrims are immolated, and their faith and their soul is sent towards The Emperor. The Emperor channels the power of their souls and their faith into a focused psychic beam that hits Horus as his guard is down, pushing the influence of Chaos away from Horus for a brief moment. Horus, now himself again, begs for The Emperor to kill him. Half-dead and mutilated, The Emperor lunges forward and stabs his heart with the Athame Dagger, channeling all of his remaining power into it, obliterating Horus’s soul forever.

Horus’s death sends a psychic shockwave through Realspace and The Warp, shattering and breaking the various different planes of unreality that they were previously fighting on across the Warp, and making stars across the rim of the galaxy spontaneously explode in supernovas.

Then The Emperor faints and collapses on top of his son's corpse.
Click to expand...
This is the coolest shit ever man istg lmao. Sixty-sixth oblique direction 😭
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Horus hit Sanguinius across 8th-dimensional angle before. I think the idea is that they are spatialess directions, the language is just being used metaphorically. You can't describe a 66th spatial axis so using a metaphor like "oblique" helps.
Click to expand...
Pretty much, it is pretty hilarious how it's described lol
 
@Matthew_Schroeder

Moving this here since I don’t want to discuss it more in the other thread and clutter it.

Yeah the entire fight is pretty explicit outside of the whole infinite realm shattering and potentially big bang level feat. They both get a ton of stuff from the fight including a big old immeasurable speed feat with them fighting across time, literally partying each other into different time periods, and Horus literally stepping and chasing the Emperor across time

Their CRT is probably going to be its own dedicated one outside of the Imperium, chaos, and Primarch crts simply due to how important those two are and how drastically their profiles are going to change
 
AbaddonTheDisappointment said:
Yeah the entire fight is pretty explicit outside of the whole infinite realm shattering and potentially big bang level feat. They both get a ton of stuff from the fight including a big old immeasurable speed feat with them fighting across time, literally partying each other into different time periods, and Horus literally stepping and chasing the Emperor across time
Click to expand...
There's also the shockwave of Horus's death causing stars alongside the rim of the milky way to explode.

The Dark King is full blown Low 2-C, 1-A in the Warp since his power would destroy the physical universe and in the Warp he'd dwarf the Chaos Gods.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
The 5th Chaos God, what The Emperor would have become if he fully embraced The Warp. He nearly falls into this path in Vol 2 but stops short. He has blatant universal feats (Shakes every atom in the universe, stated that his ascension would destroy all of Realspace, his light reaches into endless timelines, etc etc).
Click to expand...
If he did become the fifth, how high would he be in the pecking order?
 
the-lionel-heresy-the-traitors-v0-58d19mn1aiva1.jpg
 
Tipper17 said:
How dangerous would sanguinius be if Khorne got his hands on him and had him be his Daemon primarch
Click to expand...
Considering the dude was about as strong as Daemon Angron give or take a Daemon Primarch version of him empowered by Khorne would be practically unstoppable outside of psychic intervention.
 
AbaddonTheDisappointment said:
Considering the dude was about as strong as Daemon Angron give or take a Daemon Primarch version of him empowered by Khorne would be practically unstoppable outside of psychic intervention.
Click to expand...
I see makes me wonder how dangerous if chaos got there hands on the more capable loyalists primarch on there side than the ones they got
 
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