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...what? I thought this was about consistency, not gaps in power.
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WAHOOOO! Mario Bros AP Revision/Upgrade! (M&L Brothership Spoilers)
- Thread starter ShakeResounding
- Start date
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Yeah....? Did you not read what I said?
Just because values say different tiers, doesn't mean they aren't consistent with each other? The name of the tier don't matter, what matters is the gap. Like you wouldn't say a 999 megaton feat isn't consistent with a 1 gigaton feat because different tiers right?
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But there's only one Low 7-B and one 7-A feat on the verse page and about 3 to 5 9-A, 8-C, and 7-C feats. That would just make the gap bigger, no?
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Cool, I said if I had to guess.
I guess maybe it should have been downgraded to low 7-B instead with the 7-C acting as support. What do you want me to say? Shit wasn't my CRT.
Though really I don't particular care, there's more 6-C feats now, I've just spent 40 minutes skimmig shit for you dudes and noticed a handful of 7-B to 7-A feats so not like they didn't exist, but cool whatever, that is my problem how exactly?
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Okay? So, by that logic, if we have more 6-C feats, doesn't that give us "ample support" for 6-C & less of a gap between that and the High 6-A feat?
Which reminds me, there was one more 6-C feat I performed that I planned on adding in a CRT.
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I'm not sure how you came to that conslusion.
"Mind you, the TIER doesn't actually matter, but the value itself does.
For example, a High 8-C jumping up to 8-A, skipping a whole ass section, isn't that much of an issue compared to a low 9-B, jumping up to high 9-B, even though that IS the same tier, the actual gap is insane. In this example, the former can be as low as like just a lil over 8x, while the former is a gap that can be as high as 50,000x. Which is like the gap between 8-C+ to High 7-C."
6-C to HIGH 6-A is tens millions of times to billions of times.
There's no 6-C supports High 6-A really ever, you could maybe do so for like low 6-B if you have high end 6-C feats (assuming said 6-C feats aren't feats that leave dudes half dude, take max effort, etc). Like it's a gap but it isn't egregious, supporting feats do be supporting.
But in no world is a feat supporting something with a gap that's like the gap between YOU and a LITERAL M1 ABRAMS TANK, times 1000.
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Well, I'd like to continue, but I'm getting pretty exhausted (especially after work & exercising), so I'm gonna hit the sack & finish tomorrow. Good night, everybody, and Happy Thanksgiving!
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Shadow Queen has an attack of 7 while bonetail has 8, also I'm sure the pit of 100 trials takes place post game in canon for both TTYD and SPM due to how nearly impossible it is without having the items throughout the game or leveling-up(there is a whole video about it)
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we don't use gameplay damage scaling please familiarize yourself with what game mechanics are on our wiki page for it (also "I'm sure" doesn't work here)
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Also again, the High
You can do it at literally any point, the tattle is the same, and, again, the scan literally isn't talking about Shadow Queen, **** the raw says "final boss-type enemies", Goombella is just talking archtypes not specific characters.
And so? There's enemies with comparable attack to Shadow Queen, yet she literally VAPORIZED the last chapter's boss with a flick and is completely impossible to touch. Sure as hell couldn't do that with 7 attack. You're conflating gameplay with the blatant lore of Shadow Queen being literally impossible to beat with buffs and you can't so much as scratch her all while having actual feats of stomping top dogs.
A scan that 1. Isn't canon post-game, nothing states that. It's available at all times, it's just a optional challenge. 2. Isn't even talking about Shadow Queen, especially when the line is the same even when they don't even know she exists. 3. Literally just the whole ass plot of the game, her invulnerability, and actual onscreen feats spitting in the face of stats.
This will never be viable unless you actually prove, without a shadow of a doubt, Goombella is talking about Shadow Queen (she isnt).
You can do it at literally any point, the tattle is the same, and, again, the scan literally isn't talking about Shadow Queen, **** the raw says "final boss-type enemies", Goombella is just talking archtypes not specific characters.
And so? There's enemies with comparable attack to Shadow Queen, yet she literally VAPORIZED the last chapter's boss with a flick and is completely impossible to touch. Sure as hell couldn't do that with 7 attack. You're conflating gameplay with the blatant lore of Shadow Queen being literally impossible to beat with buffs and you can't so much as scratch her all while having actual feats of stomping top dogs.
A scan that 1. Isn't canon post-game, nothing states that. It's available at all times, it's just a optional challenge. 2. Isn't even talking about Shadow Queen, especially when the line is the same even when they don't even know she exists. 3. Literally just the whole ass plot of the game, her invulnerability, and actual onscreen feats spitting in the face of stats.
This will never be viable unless you actually prove, without a shadow of a doubt, Goombella is talking about Shadow Queen (she isnt).
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Also something I wanted to bring up since I honestly wasn't super sure at first but at this point, screw it.
So, TTYD (before Paper Jam, thank god) has artifacts known as the Crystal Stars. Specifically, the lore surrounding them that implies in various localizations they hold the literal "power of stars". Again, this seems very literal in meaning when comparing all the translations together. To me, this implies a High 6-A rating. Going by the Sun Fact Sheet (as we use the Sun for default "star" stuff), the Sun gives off 3.828e+26 Joules/second. This comes out to 91.49 petatons, or High 6-A for the power of a Crystal Star. For scaling, we've got Macho Grubba, who amps himself with a Crystal Star, only for Mario to beat him in Base.
So, TTYD (before Paper Jam, thank god) has artifacts known as the Crystal Stars. Specifically, the lore surrounding them that implies in various localizations they hold the literal "power of stars". Again, this seems very literal in meaning when comparing all the translations together. To me, this implies a High 6-A rating. Going by the Sun Fact Sheet (as we use the Sun for default "star" stuff), the Sun gives off 3.828e+26 Joules/second. This comes out to 91.49 petatons, or High 6-A for the power of a Crystal Star. For scaling, we've got Macho Grubba, who amps himself with a Crystal Star, only for Mario to beat him in Base.
ShakeResounding
He/Him- 8,823
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- Thread starter
- #252
Reading the scans again, I think this seems pretty solid. Most of the localizations seem to collectively imply the Crystal Stars hold this power genuinely.
Video evidence + character statements of such. It's noticed that using a Crystal Star greatly amplifies one's strength.
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On the topic of Crystal Stars, apparently their moves can hit intangible opponents when most other things can't.
Since this includes Boos & Dark Boos that have gotten "Invisible", & anything subject to a Boo's Sheet, this should be 2 layers of NPI/Intangibility Negation for Crystal Stars, no?
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ShakeResounding
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Yes, I believe that's a 2nd layer of interaction
ShakeResounding
He/Him- 8,823
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- Thread starter
- #255
Added Clover's additional argument to OP with a note it requires input from staff.
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I mostly agree with Armor and Chariot's way to interpret the whole anti-feat discussion (Although i am far from agreeing to the way Chariot's expressed his opinion), most arguments against their posts are seemingly just a misinterpretation of the situation and the classic "We are being too rigid with Mario" logic, which i have already expressed my disagreement many times before
Now, would i be against a High 6-A Upgrade? Being all honest: No
Anti-Feats indeed exist, this is undeniable, but ignoring consistent feats far above them is also something that shouldn't be done
The problem relies on that word: Consistence. But, by myself, 2-3 more feats whose values are close to the Brothership one should be more than enough to make a High 6-A rating not inconsistent
Now, would i be against a High 6-A Upgrade? Being all honest: No
Anti-Feats indeed exist, this is undeniable, but ignoring consistent feats far above them is also something that shouldn't be done
The problem relies on that word: Consistence. But, by myself, 2-3 more feats whose values are close to the Brothership one should be more than enough to make a High 6-A rating not inconsistent
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Btw: I don't really see what's that big of a problem in relation to the ice flower statement, like, just create 2 calcs for the possibility of it either freezing the surface of the sun or the whole thing.
Additionally, i think that the timeframe used can be decided based on pure common sense, things such as the ice flower taking 1 freaking year to freeze the sun doesn't seems to make sense. Well, at least for me
Additionally, i think that the timeframe used can be decided based on pure common sense, things such as the ice flower taking 1 freaking year to freeze the sun doesn't seems to make sense. Well, at least for me
This can actually work, surprisingly enough
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I share the same sentiments. Also, Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
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Freezing the surface is made up, they don't say that, why assume it for a funny lower end? It's hiding the outlier, we have rules against that.
The whole thing is obviously what they mean, but then we come into the problem of timeframe, how long? The timeframe would effect it and change the value by literally an orders of septillions of times or anything inbetween. And that's if they mean just one attack. There's so little info to work with here it's basically unquantifiable, there doesn't even exist a "low end" because the low end itself could be like 34 million year time, and then all the funny science shit involved. It's useless without more info beyond "damn that shit cold it can freeze thousands to millions of degree temp" stuff.
A year would be 5980000 yottatons as just a simple basic calc so like....
As for the crystal star shit, im digging through the raws, and fact checking the og, but from the looks of things it might be likely but still gonna make sure.
IDK3465
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I just want to remind everyone that we haven’t even considered the possibility of the ice flower statement being unreliable or just straight hyperbole. As far as I remember, nobody brought any reason for us to take the statement as literally as we are here, for all we know, the little pig socket guy (I forgot his name lol) could just be exaggerating to hype up the flower’s power.
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The statement wasn't made by him
IDK3465
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Read the OP again, it literally was said by Snoutlet
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And it's wrong
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You seem to have put a different link into your post than you meant to.
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WHY IT ALWAYS LINKS TO SONIC ******* 3
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Take a screenshot of the page?
Also, what url is offered when you click the Share button?
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Yeah, that is clearly not Snoutlet talking.
IDK how anyone would think it's anyone but the elementally-themed statues talking about the elemental flowers, beyond maybe just thinking their dialogue sound effect sounds porcine.
Not to mention, why would Snoutlet know/think to introduce them as having been passed down?
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I'm still looking into Crystal Star yap in raws some of that shit hard to find, but it's looking good so far?
But I did look into the raws for the Ice Flower yap.
The dude says
"氷を司る花... それは太陽をも凍らすであろう。"
Which translates to "The flower that governs ice... That will likely freeze even the sun."
Evidently, there's a catch here. The dude saying it, is explicitly not stating it as matter of fact. He ends his yap with であろう (de arō), which you'd translate to something like "Likely" or "Probably", "Might", etc, in the sense of formal conjecture. I went with "likely" because it sounds better and matches the tone more in english in how lil bro speaks, rather than it being a higher likelihood over possibly fyi, but what it entails, is simply that of formal conjecture (like that's literally the actual meaning) while leaving room for doubt. The statue thinks it might be the case basically, but stops short of affirming it as factual essentially.
The statement isn't treated as a hard fact, it is simply conjecture that it can even freeze a sun, it might be true, and the statue thinks it could be the case, but doesn't want to state it as a fact because it might also not be true basically.
For reference,
"炎を司る花... それは大氷河をも燃やし...", aka the fire flower yap, is stated as an affirmed fact.
"The flower that governs fire... It burns even great glaciers..."
That other statue simply states it as fact, it can in fact do this thing. Which makes it kinda weird the sun statement is stated as "yeah well it might be true?".
Take that as you will.
But I did look into the raws for the Ice Flower yap.
The dude says
"氷を司る花... それは太陽をも凍らすであろう。"
Which translates to "The flower that governs ice... That will likely freeze even the sun."
Evidently, there's a catch here. The dude saying it, is explicitly not stating it as matter of fact. He ends his yap with であろう (de arō), which you'd translate to something like "Likely" or "Probably", "Might", etc, in the sense of formal conjecture. I went with "likely" because it sounds better and matches the tone more in english in how lil bro speaks, rather than it being a higher likelihood over possibly fyi, but what it entails, is simply that of formal conjecture (like that's literally the actual meaning) while leaving room for doubt. The statue thinks it might be the case basically, but stops short of affirming it as factual essentially.
The statement isn't treated as a hard fact, it is simply conjecture that it can even freeze a sun, it might be true, and the statue thinks it could be the case, but doesn't want to state it as a fact because it might also not be true basically.
For reference,
"炎を司る花... それは大氷河をも燃やし...", aka the fire flower yap, is stated as an affirmed fact.
"The flower that governs fire... It burns even great glaciers..."
That other statue simply states it as fact, it can in fact do this thing. Which makes it kinda weird the sun statement is stated as "yeah well it might be true?".
Take that as you will.
ShakeResounding
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Wouldn't that make it best fit under a "possibly" Tiering for Power-Ups then?
"[X Tier]. Higher with Power-Ups, possibly [Y Tier] with the Ice Flower"
"[X Tier]. Higher with Power-Ups, possibly [Y Tier] with the Ice Flower"
Spinoirr
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Yeah i agree with that, although it should be "Likely" as the wording used is "Likely"
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In context, a "likely" might be true.
If these flowers are being passed down, that indicates they're only being used by trusted individuals, & even that aside, the sun has never been frozen in any Mario game, AFAIK.
If the sun was frozen, someone would notice. I think the intent is that it should be powerful enough, if the need is there, but no one has been stupid or crazy enough to try the scientific method of verifying its truth, hence them not stating it as an objective fact.
IDK3465
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Shit, you’re right. To be fair though, I haven’t played the game yet so I was basically going off what everyone else said.
However, my point still stands. Maybe the statement has a little more credibility considering it’s from an ancient being that would know about the flower’s capabilities. But, that doesn’t rule out the possibility that it’s just an exaggeration or flowery language.
If there’s a bit more evidence for higher tier power-ups, I’d be willing to use this as supporting evidence, but right now, it’s just too sketchy in my opinion.
EDIT: Actually, reading through what Chariot said, I strangely am more accepting of a ‘likely’ rating. Idk, but the way it’s worded makes it seem more literal and genuine. I mean, if you wanted to exaggerate something, you wouldn’t acknowledge how it’s just a guess on your part, as it should already be evident that what you’re saying is somewhat false.
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I think a "likely" rating at the very least should be fine given the context and translation (especially knowing the fact the staff hates the whole translation shtick).
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With the Crystal Stars thing as supporting evidence I agree with using High 6-A (though I disagree with the Star Rod scaling to Base characters), and "possibly up to Low 4-C with power-ups" seems fine via the Ice Flower statement.
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Does this include the Star Rod's attacks scaling only to Durability?
Eden_Warlock99
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I thought the Star Rod thing was invalid since Mario was amped or something?
ShakeResounding
He/Him- 8,823
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Updated the staff tally.
I'll likely note that the High 6-C feat should actually be 6-B later, as I'm not at my laptop atm
I'll likely note that the High 6-C feat should actually be 6-B later, as I'm not at my laptop atm
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Yeah, we're talking a different High 6-A feat (the Crystal Stars in TTYD containing the literal "power of stars", and Base Mario beating Crystal Star-amped characters)
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