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Versus Thread Removal Requests (New forum)

Requesting the removal of the match between Marisa and Asriel due to it being an objective stomp. Asriel supporters argue that he begins with a 2-B info hax nova from the outset, which Marisa cannot resist or survive. This clearly violates the thread rules that prohibit frame 1 victories from being added to profiles.

Despite this, the match was added after a FRA train, which seems to prioritize the addition of a match over addressing concerns and talking points. This is a straightforward case of procedural oversight.

Here are the affected profiles here and here.
 
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If we wanna go this route (not that I care much) is the removal of Mettaton vs Homelander.

The OP kept pushing for the possibility for Homelander being able to flip MTT and push his switch, making the latter go in his more vulnerable EX form, however, there are issues:
Mettaton objectively stomps, Homelander cannot do anything without making conditions somewhat favorable for him.
 
Adem_Warlock69 said:
I don't think AP scaling really works like that in Versus Matches?
Click to expand...
You have a one shot scaling chain above X value, then you one shot people below or equal to X too (it was argued even here, mind u).

But that's just one of the many reasons why that fight is doodoo anyways.
 
Quibster said:
Requesting the removal of the match between Marisa and Asriel due to it being an objective stomp. Asriel supporters argue that he begins with a 2-B info hax nova from the outset, which Marisa cannot resist or survive. This clearly violates the thread rules that prohibit frame 1 victories from being added to profiles.

Despite this, the match was added after a FRA train, which seems to prioritize the addition of a match over addressing concerns and talking points. This is a straightforward case of procedural oversight.

Here are the affected profiles here and here.
Click to expand...
Looking into it a bit, I believe this is a fair removal. Acknowledging that there were arguments on either side, it seems to me that this is a straightforward matter. One also gets the impression powerscalers were seeing different things than me, in Undertale, but it is what it is.

I don't think it is a rule violation in this instance, as there were arguments on all sides and it does not fall to Strym to decide whether a match cannot be added due to being considered a stomp. However, given the prevalence of that topic in the thread's conversation, it really should have been brought to a staff member to weigh in on the matter. In the future, for those poor few who read my words, if you are faced with a thread of controversy such as this, regarding whether or not it is a stomp match (and thus can be added to a profile), do just reach out to one of us to ask. This goes for all people, not just Strym.

EDIT: I've gone ahead and removed it.

StrymULTRA said:
If we wanna go this route (not that I care much) is the removal of Mettaton vs Homelander.

The OP kept pushing for the possibility for Homelander being able to flip MTT and push his switch, making the latter go in his more vulnerable EX form, however, there are issues:
Mettaton objectively stomps, Homelander cannot do anything without making conditions somewhat favorable for him.
Click to expand...
This... is significantly more dubious of a request, one feels. Arguments could be made on the matter, but really, the thread just had minimal discussion to begin with. I'll ping @Psychomaster35 to (in one message, with no followup discussion, preferably) give his thoughts on the matter on whether it is a stomp or not. Maybe hear from other staff, if possible.
 
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Mr. Bambu said:
This... is significantly more dubious of a request, one feels. Arguments could be made on the matter, but really, the thread just had minimal discussion to begin with. I'll ping @Psychomaster35 to (in one message, with no followup discussion, preferably) give his thoughts on the matter on whether it is a stomp or not. Maybe hear from other staff, if possible.
Click to expand...
The thing is, Homelander has a scaling chain that makes him one-shot characters scaling to the value he scales to, and there is always the possibility of him doing this by accident while punching Mettaton over and over. Also, Soul Manipulation in Undertale doesn't one-shot IIRC and it is still connected to physical durability.
 
Psychomaster35 said:
The thing is, Homelander has a scaling chain that makes him one-shot characters scaling to the value he scales to, and there is always the possibility of him doing this by accident while punching Mettaton over and over. Also, Soul Manipulation in Undertale doesn't one-shot IIRC and it is still connected to physical durability.
Click to expand...
Metatton soul hax requires only 4 hits to kill characters like Frisk who resist soul stuff, and even if Homelander resist a single attack I highly doubt he will be able to survive the next ones (and as I said, characters who resist soul stuff are killed with only 4 hits)
 
Psychomaster35 said:
The thing is, Homelander has a scaling chain that makes him one-shot characters scaling to the value he scales to, and there is always the possibility of him doing this by accident while punching Mettaton over and over. Also, Soul Manipulation in Undertale doesn't one-shot IIRC and it is still connected to physical durability.
Click to expand...
Just saying, unlike everybody else (well besides this smiley trashbag), Mettaton has an actual Durability Negation in his calculator base form, which is really his only attack in-character in this form:
Durability Negation (Can use an attack that always halves the HP of the target)
Click to expand...
It is accepted on his profile as of now.
 
TheOrangeGuy09 said:
which is really his only attack in-character in this form:
Click to expand...
Not really.
Psychomaster35 said:
The thing is, Homelander has a scaling chain that makes him one-shot characters scaling to the value he scales to, and there is always the possibility of him doing this by accident while punching Mettaton over and over. Also, Soul Manipulation in Undertale doesn't one-shot IIRC and it is still connected to physical durability.
Click to expand...
It does not, but it still would take around 4 hits to do the job.
 
Adem_Warlock69 said:
It takes four hits for Frisk, Homelander is a one-shot above Frisk, soooo
Click to expand...
I mean the fact 4 hits would be taken for characters comparable to them.

It'd still mean that MTT would take 20 hits at max to kill Homelander, as the baseline soul is assumed to have 20 HP in threads, as far as I recall.
 
To avoid further cluttering of the thread, I'm going to say that it is my opinion that the match is probably fine to stay, even if it is a borderline case. Aside from other staff weighing in on that ruling, I consider the discussion finished.
 
I believe these two should be removed:
​
​
Both matches are from 2022. Goku has had many revisions since then. I believe Reinhard has also received significant revisions.

I also think the Son Goku (GT) vs Son Goku (DBS Manga) match from February 2024 deserves some scrutiny. From what I can tell both Gokus have had significant revisions since then and the arguments used in the thread seem to be outdated or incorrect as the AP scaling chain used to justify Goku (GT) winning appears to give Goku (DBS Manga) a relatively very low value. For context that's Goku from the ToP with access to Ultra Instinct.

Finally Grand Priest vs Medea is from 2019 and from what I can tell Grand Priest doesn't have the loss on any of his profiles. Yet Medea's page still has the match. I believe this was an incomplete removal. And even if not the match should be completely removed due to being very outdated.
 
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Yhwach vs Doomguy

Now look, I may seem like I'm malding, but I do believe that this match was argued in relatively poor faith. Many of the votes were FRA trains and were maintained from before he was shifted to be able to use all of his Schrifts (which is a HUGE difference from normal SK Yhwach). Doomguy before pretty much countered all of Yhwach's stuff except for having inferior LS so he could get pinned by TK, and having a weakness to fear manipulation, which was basically a stomp (I didn't exactly argue that it was because that was going to be a debate in an of itself that would ultimately derail). No one really countered my claims of resistance neg or anything

But after Yhwach gained all of his Schrifts, he gained a LOT more, including thought-based EE and Non-existence erasure, and type 8 and Mid-godly, along with resistance neg and others (which I had argued and nobody responded to). Considering this, the votes from the previous should've been reconsidered with the development of this since the difference was between a pebble and a meteor, since as per rules FRAs are usually for points that have not been countered or if a significant change had not happened, which in this case did.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
I also think the Son Goku (GT) vs Son Goku (DBS Manga) match from February 2024 deserves some scrutiny. From what I can tell both Gokus have had significant revisions since then and the arguments used in the thread seem to be outdated or incorrect as the AP scaling chain used to justify Goku (GT) winning appears to give Goku (DBS Manga) a relatively very low value. For context that's Goku from the ToP with access to Ultra Instinct.
Click to expand...
It has come to my attention that due to a cosmology CRT, the cosmology of GT is currently treated as 3 Universes whereas the Canon cosmology is treated as 2 Universes.

So this matchup should be removed as it is now a stomp in favor of GT Goku.
 
Sukuna's profile
Ben Tennyson (Ben 10) Ben's Profile (11-year-old Ben was used with Way Big restricted and access to Master Control. Sukuna had his full arsenal including Megumi's body, Mahoraga, and World Slash. The fight took place in Shinjuku. Speed was equalized)
Click to expand...
Ben got upgraded and most of his aliens now speedblitz and are 5-A. This should be removed
Click to expand...
FRA train pretty much and barely any decent support for Sukuna. Theres no way that Garou could counter layared invisibility, cursed manipulation/death inducement, domain expansion that allows the user to always hit the opponent no matter what, fire arrow capable to vaporize everything within 200 meters of radius, mid regen that allows him to insta heal the body like arms or bullshit like this, and insane stamina tolerance that allows Sukuna to fight nonstop even after losing his healing powers. Man got blow up, lost more than half of his CE pool, got his body and soul disconnected little by little, lost his heart by a katana capable to ignore any substance to hit the soul, lost his arms, lost some eyes, had massive brain damage, got burned by Jacob's Ladder, and then said, "Nah, I'm barely tired" to Maki

And to make it worst that Garou only lasts for some couple of chapters, he lacks a any decent feat
Makima (Chainsaw Man) Makima's Profile (15 Fingers Sukuna in Megumi's body was used. Speed was equalized and the starting distance was 50 meters)
Click to expand...
It was assumed that Makima can just passively mindhax Sukuna, so its a stomp yeah
Akame (Akame ga Kill!) Akame's Profile (Both started 4 meters apart from each other, Heian era Sukuna was used, Akame was in her MoS Akame ga Kill key, both were in character and their speeds were equalized. The fight took place here)
Click to expand...
It was agreed in the end of thread. Sukuna stomps. Akame has no wincons
 
ReaperAndBlues said:
Yhwach vs Doomguy

Now look, I may seem like I'm malding, but I do believe that this match was argued in relatively poor faith. Many of the votes were FRA trains and were maintained from before he was shifted to be able to use all of his Schrifts (which is a HUGE difference from normal SK Yhwach). Doomguy before pretty much countered all of Yhwach's stuff except for having inferior LS so he could get pinned by TK, and having a weakness to fear manipulation, which was basically a stomp (I didn't exactly argue that it was because that was going to be a debate in an of itself that would ultimately derail). No one really countered my claims of resistance neg or anything

But after Yhwach gained all of his Schrifts, he gained a LOT more, including thought-based EE and Non-existence erasure, and type 8 and Mid-godly, along with resistance neg and others (which I had argued and nobody responded to). Considering this, the votes from the previous should've been reconsidered with the development of this since the difference was between a pebble and a meteor, since as per rules FRAs are usually for points that have not been countered or if a significant change had not happened, which in this case did.
Click to expand...
bump
 
Itadori's profile

Agent (Carnivores) (Carnivores) The Agent's Profile (Speed was equalized, Fearsome Womb Arc Shinji was used, both had prior knowledge of each other, and the battle took place in Detroit, Michigan with the starting distance being 20ft apart and out of sight)
Click to expand...
FRA train. The only argument was "Oh yeah, agent has weapons" and thats it, ignoring the insane stamina and stats difference. No one argued for Itadori
Ryuunosuke Mitakata (Summer Time Rendering) Ryuunosuke's Profile (Speed was equalized, They fought in an Underground Subway Station, Itadori was in his Fearsome Womb Key & Ryuunosuke was in his Key, Ryuunosuke had a knife & Yuji had Slaughter Demon)
Click to expand...
This match is very biased (?). Its using the first key of Itadori, which barely has any feats and only lasts for less than 10 chapters, while the guy has a bunch of skill feats and precog in a 2-A scale
 
To quote the OP:

The following on their own do not automatically mean a match is a stomp.
  • Being a decisive match doesn't make it a stomp.
  • Having a small array of hax isn't a stomp.
  • Having one hax to the opponent's none, or one hax being the deciding factor doesn't make it a stomp.
So unless these last two are stomps, there's no reason to remove them. There wasn't any bad faith in the first one in particular, it's just that no one voted for Yuji
 
CloverDragon03 said:
So unless these last two are stomps, there's no reason to remove them. There wasn't any bad faith in the first one in particular, it's just that no one voted for Yuji
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure that I can remove threads that basically doesn't make sense or that are very much just FRA train. No one in the thread argued for Itadori and it was "Oh, agent has weapons, ima vote for him", no supported commented or anything, its literally just a speedrun to see the match in profiles

The second one is a stomp yeah. The guy has 2-A precog. Itadori can't counter that since he even lacks decent skill feats at this point
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
I'm pretty sure that I can remove threads that basically doesn't make sense or that are very much just FRA train. No one in the thread argued for Itadori and it was "Oh, agent has weapons, ima vote for him", no supported commented or anything, its literally just a speedrun to see the match in profiles
Click to expand...
You can't prove intent like that just because no one voted for Yuji. And if FRA trains were not allowed we'd be removing a lot of VS matches, which we don't
LIFE_OF_KING said:
The second one is a stomp yeah. The guy has 2-A precog. Itadori can't counter that since he even lacks decent skill feats at this point
Click to expand...
If you're arguing that one's a stomp, then yeah, that's another thing entirely
 
CloverDragon03 said:
You can't prove intent like that just because no one voted for Yuji. And if FRA trains were not allowed we'd be removing a lot of VS matches, which we don't
Click to expand...
I'm not saying that there was any intent, I'm saying that no one argued for Itadori or any supporter have shown to argue. There was one argument and then a spam of FRA.
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
I'm not saying that there was any intent, I'm saying that no one argued for Itadori or any supporter have shown to argue. There was one argument and then a spam of FRA.
Click to expand...
Still not a reason to remove the thread, though. A decisive match isn't a reason to remove a VS thread
 
We don't remove matches simply for being FRA trains. There wasn't any bad practice, for example. It's just that no one ended up arguing for Yuji, so unless it turns out to be a stomp, I don't see a reason to remove this
 
So if I make Tanjiro vs SSJB Goku, and everyone decide to vote for Tanjiro somehow, it will be added and no one will be capable to remove?
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
So if I make Tanjiro vs SSJB Goku, and everyone decide to vote for Tanjiro somehow, it will be added and no one will be capable to remove?
Click to expand...
I'm not entirely certain of your point. Do you intend to say that in these matchups, one character stomps the other? That is the case in this hypothetical, is it not? It is invalid for a different reason.

The fact of the matter is that matches are valid if they are not stomps and are agreed upon by consensus- so if the math isn't a stomp (egregiously obviously, in this hypothetical), then yeah, if all users agree one character wins over the other, then it would be added until rendered invalid (say, by new information coming out about one verse in the form of new episodes granting new abilities). Versus threads operate via court of public opinion, that can only be superceded should a broader "court" decide that the outcome is obviously and evidently unreasonable.
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
So if I make Tanjiro vs SSJB Goku, and everyone decide to vote for Tanjiro somehow, it will be added and no one will be capable to remove?
Click to expand...
That's an entirely different case. It can be removed for being a stomp, or for incorrect arguments, not on the basis of it being a unanimous decision.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
I'm not entirely certain of your point. Do you intend to say that in these matchups, one character stomps the other? That is the case in this hypothetical, is it not? It is invalid for a different reason.
Click to expand...
I intent to say that the match doesn't make sense
Its a 10-A with a shotgun against a 9-A capable to dodge things that hit the target automatically
The point is that there was no argument for Itadori at all, with just a FRA train without basis
But if the fact that the result of the match just doesn't make sense isn't enough to remove it from the profile, I will accept it
 
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