Verse Equalization

[AnonymousBlank]

With Bleach it's not an ability because you literally can not see spirits, souls, and ghost in the first place because of their "make up" bruh

So them being invisible is an ability then.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Alright Imade. Lets remove Intangibility from the discussion.

That still wouldnt allow Bleach Chracters to interact with their opponents if being invisible, unseeable and unsensible. Thats still practically making them non-existent to the opponent.

What would you expect them to do, randomly attack everything around them?

Then just be reasonable and not put Bleach characters in unfair matches where their opponents can't have a reasonable chance. They should only be fighting characters that have extrasensory perceptions and/or could see spirits, souls or ghost.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

AstralKing that literally made no sense,that's like saying nonexistence physiology isn't an ability and should be equalized in threads lmao.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Being invisible to opponents doesn't really makings things a stomp. Especially the opponent has Enhanced Senses, precog and such. Like how Kenbunshoko Haki works in One Piece they'd be able to see Shinigami with it despite them not having anything to equalize.

Thats only when Verse Equalization would allow them to sense Bleach characters via an equivalant to Reiryoku.

Otherwise, its beyond a stomp. You can't fight something you can't sense, cannot see and cannot hear.

 

[AstralKing7]

It's a state of being that comes naru with ghost, spirits, and souls you do understand that right???

 

[Wokistan]

Still an inconsistency when fewer characters can get around this sort of thing, and its not like the immortal can't fight back. Matches have been concluded as stomps due to this, so why not just conclude a match where someone is intangible and that makes it a stomp as a stomp.

WF is one of two characters in that verse, so WF is by default a standard.

There really isn't a difference. Every Hive God, of which there are a lot, is very powerful in Sword Logic. Doesn't mean they are now banned from it. Not sensing spirituality isn't really a disability either, that's not the default. It is for people relevant, but not in general.

Literally what I've been saying the entire thread. Non spiritual verses don't get this stuff equalized.

Everything from Cthulhu's universe would be like this. By that logic, ghosts should not have intangibility via being a ghost because too ubiquitous.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Kukui
If you have energy sensing capabilities or the abilities to see souls characters can still fight Bleach ones. We are saying (at least I am) that energy between verses are equalised but not the inherent abilities it grants people. This means that Madara would be able absorb a kido blast but he wouldn't be able to air walk.

Not if the abilities naturally and automatically come with the energy your equalizing (like for Bleach, Reiatsu and Reiryoku).

Removing it "because I say so" doesnt even make it that energy anymore, it's disregarding it.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

AstralKing that literally made no sense,that's like saying nonexistence physiology isn't an ability and should be equalized in threads lmao.

@Astral

This^. You are claiming biological traits are not valid abilities and must thus be equalised.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

No, again like I said before we don't equalize everything. Prime example would be Haki from One Piece due to how different it is from Chi Groups. Fodder level Kenbunshoko Haki users can see invisible beings, it also allows you to hear things one wouldn't normally hear or sense. Point is everything should be looked at case by case.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Alright Imade. Lets remove Intangibility from the discussion.

That still wouldnt allow Bleach Chracters to interact with their opponents if being invisible, unseeable and unsensible. Thats still practically making them non-existent to the opponent.

What would you expect them to do, randomly attack everything around them?

Then just be reasonable and not put Bleach characters in unfair matches where their opponents can't have a reasonable chance. They should only be fighting characters that have extrasensory perceptions and/or could see spirits, souls or ghost.

That, or when we equalize Reiatsu with their verse, that verse gets Reiryoku and then they'd be able to fight them (as long as their verses energy is spiritually capable of course). Simple.

I can gurantee you there aren't more than a very few verses in Bleaches tier that actually have spirit sensing on their own without Verse Equalization. A lot of matches would be heavily made impossible to even happen.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

@Kukui

But you are saying to give other characters powers just because. Simply because I equated Reiryoku with Chakra does not give chakra users additional powers. That is absolutely absurd. I allowed a number of Madara's inverse abilities to still work not gave him new ones.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No, again like I said before we don't equalize everything. Prime example would be Haki from One Piece due to how different it is from Chi Groups. Fodder level Kenbunshoko Haki users can see invisible beings, it also allows you to hear things one wouldn't normally hear or sense. Point is everything should be looked at case by case.

Im pretty sure Haki would be equalized and if not then I vehemently disagree with not equalizing it.

Fights should not have to spend half the time debating if theyre verses energy is the same and allows for stuff from one to work on the other. Thats what Verse Equalization is to prevent in the 1st place.

 

[Wokistan]

Idk about one piece, or most anime, but I've heard its sufficiently different from that sort of stuff to not be equalized.

What's wrong with debate about the characteristics of the character in a debate thread? The nature of the abilities and characteristics of someone is very important to a fight, and imo the best part to debate.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

@Kukui


Blatantly false and it's already been accepted if you want the thread to it. Haki in One Piece just gives the user the ability to strike those with elemental Intang, Precog and the ability to knock others out with their will.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That doesnt make it inconsistent. Because again, killing is not the only way to win a match here. You can beat 1-A immortals without killing them.

So 2 characters out of verse with billions of invidiuals is somehow the common standard?

If those Hive Gods abilities are specifically for them and only them, then yes its not banned. And yes, not being able to sense spirits is a disability for them as they lack the ability to do so. Not the default? Name some humans in Bleach who're naturally able to sense and see spirits without anything else interfering to allow them to do that.

If by verses that don't have a verse-speciifc spirit energy then yeah I can agree to that. Otherwise those with spirit energy in their verses that battle should.

Not the same thing either. Ghosts may get intangibility from their state of being as ghosts, but they don't have to rely on people not being able to touch them to get it.

 

[AstralKing7]

I disagree with equalizing haki as well for now. If I remember correctly Haki was spiritual as well right but that still isn't enough to compare its use to other energies.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Kukui
But you are saying to give other characters powers just because. Simply because I equated Reiryoku with Chakra does not give chakra users additional powers. That is absolutely absurd. I allowed a number of Madara's inverse abilities to still work not gave him new ones.

Yes it does because you can't equalize Reiatsu with Chakra without Reiryoku factored in as its not longer Reiatsu at all.

Just like I can't equalize Chakra with x but then just choose to remove the spiritual aspect of chakra and make it just physical energy. Thats not what Chakra is.

 

[Agnaa]

I've only read half this thread but I haven't seen it brought up so.

Isn't this equalization stuff only about abilities that over 98% of a verse has, which that 98% of the verse has a way of ignoring completely, and which makes fights impossible if the other can't counteract it?

All these comparisons to 1-A immortality and super strong hax are meaningless, since they don't come from verses where everyone has insanely broken precog but also insanely broken anti precog so they just fight each other normally.

This is the difference with Jojo and (unless I'm mistaken) with Bleach.

Bump because this seems to have been ignored.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Kukui

Blatantly false and it's already been accepted if you want the thread to it. Haki in One Piece just gives the user the ability to strike those with elemental Intang, Precog and the ability to knock others out with their will.

Alright simple question. Are these abilities that people in One Piece actually have to train to use?

Yes or no?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"Not the same thing either. Ghosts may get intangibility from their state of being as ghosts, but they don't have to rely on people not being able to touch them to get it. "

Okay what does that even means? I'm serious, what does this mean? The very definition of intangibility is unable to be touched.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Wokistan: What's wrong with debate about the characteristics of the character in a debate thread? The nature of the abilities and characteristics of someone is very important to a fight, and imo the best part to debate.

It really isnt and thats why Vsbattles included Verse Equalization to prevent that.

Its a huge headche and pain to argue what energy equals what without even getting to the actual fight itself. If you like thats you, but no one wants to sit through a debate like that before getting to the actual match. It's incredibly annoying.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Everything in One Piece has Haki. Most just never how to utilize it.

 

[Wokistan]

No, it makes your argument inconsistent as you are ok with this much more unfair power being ok but not bleach's stuff. Also consider who the 1-A immortals are.

The verse has 2 people.

You just debunked your own point. Regular humans not being able to do that proves that doing so is not the default. Why is "Hive God's" an acceptable category, but "Shinigami" is not?

That is literally what I have been saying this whole thread, even in the OP.

Kukui this sentence makes no sense. You said that ghosts are intangible hut they don't get intangibikiry from being intangible. I don't think that's what you meant, but idk how else to inteprret it.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

@Kukui

>two characters out of a verse with billions of individuals is somehow the common standard?

So why are you trying to apply the same to Bleach. The only way other verse characters are going to be able to see spirits without feats is by killing themselves ... so easy win?

>name some humans

Fullbringers, Quincy, Ichigo, Karin, Tatsuki, Keigo ... look at that humans who can see spirits.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I still see no issue. The only complaint is that it'd be unfair in matches which is not a legitmate complaint when we have other invisible and intangible characters. What we do is not be unreasonable and pit intangibles/invisible characters with opponents that have no chance against them due to the abilities... that's called spite.

You would just need to do the same for Shinigami, Hollows and dead spirits from Bleach.

 

[Agnaa]

I still see no issue. The only complaint is that it'd be unfair in matches

This is not the only complaint.

Is no-one reading my posts? Holy shit.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay what does that even means? I'm serious, what does this mean? The very definition of intangibility is unable to be touched.

Yes, but as far as im aware we dont have to actually see a ghost have feats of being untouchable by physical forces for them to get intangibility by default. Not until inconsistency shows up to question it anyways.

Its ghosts being intangible until evidence of them not being intangible comes up in their verse.

And even if this example isnt the best one, it still wouldnt mean that fodders who lack the ability to see you means you yourself can turn invisible. Its the fodders problem.

 

[Wokistan]

The idea that bleach shouldn't get intangibility based off the above is a non sequitur. Explain why any of that is relevant.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

If an entire race of non-ghost beings have feats of intangibility we give it to them, not ignore it.

So what? Are we to assume that those "fodders" you talk about just have eyes problems or something and are unable to see something that "normal people" should be able to? By definition, fodder in a verse are the normal people and unless proven otherwise, other people from other verse should be treated the same as them.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

People need to drop the intangibility. It was already explained and handled in another thread that Bleach does not get intangibility due to in-verse mechanics that directly state high density spiritual beings can be touched. They only got Invisibility and Non-Physical Interaction.

The only thing being discussed here in this thread is invisibility.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Because its literally the exact opposite? 2 people in one verse of billions isnt the standard but billions out of 2 people not being able to would be the standard.

And no, the "other way" is by equalizing Reiatsu with the verse's spirit energy that they use to battle. For verses that don't have a verse specific energy, you're right about.

Karin, Tatsuki and Keigo got to see spirits because of being around Ichigo. Not natural. Same thing for Fullbringers considering Orihime and Chad couldnt see spirits from the start. Quincy are humans born with spiritual capabilities. Applying that to all humans is a no no.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

>We equalize Digimon and those who fight Digimon are given a Digicore.

No they don't. They keep their normal physiology. Digicores and becoming data are like completely irrelevant in terms of equalization. We don't make Dark Area natives physical to give them matches.

But that's beside the point.

I may have missed this, but....what's stopping someone who can see ghosts and attack spirits from hitting or seeing a Bleach character? I feel like we are making things too complicated.

 

[Wokistan]

"Karin, Tatsuki and Keigo got to see spirits because of being around Ichigo. Not natural. Same thing for Fullbringers considering Orihime and Chad couldnt see spirits from the start. Quincy are humans born with spiritual capabilities. Applying that to all humans is a no"

So you agree with me against your own point then?

 

[Antoniofer]

@Dragon, nothing as far I known, character capable with Extrasensory Perception should be able to at least see and communicate with Bleach characters.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I may have missed this, but....what's stopping someone who can see ghosts and attack spirits from hitting or seeing a Bleach character? I feel like we are making things too complicated.

Nothing Dragon, absolutely nothing. The complaint just seems that it'd be unfair in matches while the obvious solution is just to not put them in unfair spite matches.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

There is nothing stopping them. Kukui is arguing to give other verses's characters the abilities granted by Reiryoku in a match involving Bleach.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Question: Can space-time manipulation bypass intangibility?

 

[Agnaa]

There is nothing stopping them. Kukui is arguing to give other verses's characters the abilities granted by Reiryoku in a match involving Bleach.

No. That's the dumbest way of doing it and not how it's treated currently.

Characters without stands don't get stands of their own. The enemy's stand is just not invisible/invincible to them.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Question: Can space-time manipulation bypass intangibility?

Don't think so.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

@Agnaa

Exactly! Now explain that to Kukui because I and many others have been failing.