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The argument is Kukui thinks verse equalization with give people abilities they have never had such as being able to see spirits without having enhanced senses or being able to detect them without extrasensory perception.
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Verse Equalization
- Thread starter Wokistan
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Wokistan
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Kukui spiritual senses aren't a default thing that everybody has. Not having them isn't a weakness, having them is a boon. Since we both agree it's probably best for you to just stop at thing point so the thread doesn't get even more confusing.
Angaa, mind summing up your grievances? That plot twist threw me off.
Angaa, mind summing up your grievances? That plot twist threw me off.
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My position:
Verse equalization in terms of abilities starts at a basic level with case by case basis analysis of what is and isn't applied. General standard being, "if it's necessary to exist in the verse by nature" with the caveat being "if it would apply to the character in the fight at their level".
So, Reiatsu Crush for anyone with massive Spiritual Energy Power would be a thing. Any ability granted by simply EXISTING as a high tier spiritual energy user would be granted.
Otherwise, don't do verse equalization beyond it being offensively the same thing. Like Genjutsu users being able to use it on Reiatsu users.
Verse equalization in terms of abilities starts at a basic level with case by case basis analysis of what is and isn't applied. General standard being, "if it's necessary to exist in the verse by nature" with the caveat being "if it would apply to the character in the fight at their level".
So, Reiatsu Crush for anyone with massive Spiritual Energy Power would be a thing. Any ability granted by simply EXISTING as a high tier spiritual energy user would be granted.
Otherwise, don't do verse equalization beyond it being offensively the same thing. Like Genjutsu users being able to use it on Reiatsu users.
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I thought you were only talking about verses with sensing abilities lol. Thats why I disagreed and argued this much.Wokistan said:
If its a verse with no spirit energy used for their moves at all, like Attack on Titan for example, then ofc they wouldnt be aparrt of this.
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I've never once agreed with him, we've been clear on our differences. I've even had to correct him on how he was misinformed about Bleach Intangibility and Invisibility.Agnaa said:
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No they don't agree with that,having spiritual energy isn't enough he wants to arbitrarily give others abilities like extrasensory perception and enhanced senses (soul vision) even if they don't have it in their own verse.
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THIS^. THIS is what my stance is to clear things up.Agnaa said:
If its a verse with a spirit energy used in their moves, like Chakra or KI, it should be applied.
Verses without a spirit energy used in their moves and stuff, it shouldnt be applied.
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Isn't this equalization stuff only about abilities that over 98% of a verse has, which that 98% of the verse has a way of ignoring completely, and which makes fights impossible if the other can't counteract it?
What does this mean? it's not impossible to fight bleach chars. Even with no verse equalization.
What does this mean? it's not impossible to fight bleach chars. Even with no verse equalization.
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The bolded part is what I don't agree with. And for this whole thread I assumed Woki wasn't arguing this.Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
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Invisibility and invincibility are abilities which tend to lead to stomps.MachTwo said:
Reminder that I'm not just talking about Bleach, this is a generalized argument applying to verses like Jojo too.
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Chakra is a combination of physical and spiritual energy,are we going to give every chakra user the ability to see invisible beings even though only the god tier have displayed the ability to see the invisible Limbo clones with their even more exclusive chakra variant?
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Actually we still disagree. From what I am understanding, Kukui is saying standard energies from other verses that normally don't grant the ability to see ghosts will gain that ability when it is equalized to Reiryoku which I believe to be giving them powers that they don't have.
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@MachTwo But Jojo's stands do.
From what I heard all Bleach characters being intangible was debunked? Perhaps their invisibility shouldn't be equalized then since it's feasible to have matches against an opponent who's just invisible.
From what I heard all Bleach characters being intangible was debunked? Perhaps their invisibility shouldn't be equalized then since it's feasible to have matches against an opponent who's just invisible.
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Except you gotta get on Bleach's level or else lol.MachTwo said:
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Yeah this is what im saying.AnonymousBlank said:
The other verses would be granted Reiryoku because your equalizing Bleach's Reiatsu with the energy the other verse uses. You can't give them Reiatsu without Reiryoku.
And again, this goes for verses with a spirit energy equivalant. Not any verse.
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@Sigurd
Do we Verse Equalize having souls? Some verses don't have Souls at all. If we Verse Equalize that, we have to Verse Equalize people having innate abilities as a result of being Spirit Energy users. In Bleach, anyone who can use their Brand of Spirit Energy is a person with above average Reiryoku, which means they have to have the abilities that come with just existing in a setting where the Verse is Equalized.
If everyone has the potential to use a Zanpakuto, then everyone has that potential. Don't need to give it to the characters.
We can even be extra conservative and only apply the stuff that come with existing in general. So, in Bleach's case, anyone who can use Spiritual Energy has Extrasensory Perception in threads that are equalized, as well as Reiatsu Crush because that comes from simply existing as a being with a gap compared to someone else- its not like, say, if character x gets an ability because they're a level 120 Spirit Energy Manipulator. They don't get that shit. Reiatsu Crush happens when there's a Thicc gap, not at a certain strength level.
So, if you want to be extra conservative, only give them the inherent shit.
Do we Verse Equalize having souls? Some verses don't have Souls at all. If we Verse Equalize that, we have to Verse Equalize people having innate abilities as a result of being Spirit Energy users. In Bleach, anyone who can use their Brand of Spirit Energy is a person with above average Reiryoku, which means they have to have the abilities that come with just existing in a setting where the Verse is Equalized.
If everyone has the potential to use a Zanpakuto, then everyone has that potential. Don't need to give it to the characters.
We can even be extra conservative and only apply the stuff that come with existing in general. So, in Bleach's case, anyone who can use Spiritual Energy has Extrasensory Perception in threads that are equalized, as well as Reiatsu Crush because that comes from simply existing as a being with a gap compared to someone else- its not like, say, if character x gets an ability because they're a level 120 Spirit Energy Manipulator. They don't get that shit. Reiatsu Crush happens when there's a Thicc gap, not at a certain strength level.
So, if you want to be extra conservative, only give them the inherent shit.
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No we don't give soulless beings soul.
Also great now apperently verse equalization grants passive aura hax.
Also great now apperently verse equalization grants passive aura hax.
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@Amexim
We verse equalizing souls to verses that don't comment on whether they have souls or not. Verses that don't have souls have that considered as a special ability.
Verse equalization is based on two verses having similar but differently named things, and treating abilities that work on one as working on the other.
We verse equalizing souls to verses that don't comment on whether they have souls or not. Verses that don't have souls have that considered as a special ability.
Verse equalization is based on two verses having similar but differently named things, and treating abilities that work on one as working on the other.
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Also, Chakra is listed under Chi manipulation, which is Spiritual Energy. Scream "Spirit + Physical" all you want in reference to Chakra, but that's not enough to say that it's basically Chi. And "Spiritual energy" in the Naruto Context is Mental Energy— it's not Chi, it's literally Mental stamina and physical stamina burned off to produce Chakra.
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This is pretty much what im saying:
Reiryoku and Reiatsu are the same energy. Reiryoku is a part of Reiatsu, its a generic universal concept with Bleach's spirit energy. Literally every single person in the verse, including every day people, have it. Its not something speciifc one has to have knowledge of and train to obtain like Kido spells for instance. Its a natural inate part of Reiatsu. When you have Reiatsu, you automatically have Reiryoku. Both are in the same package.
So thats why any verse's energy equivalant, when equalized with Bleach, should get Reiryoku. Because if you equal Reiatsu with their energy, you have to equalize Reiryoku with their energy too. It's not something you can selectively take away.
Reiryoku and Reiatsu are the same energy. Reiryoku is a part of Reiatsu, its a generic universal concept with Bleach's spirit energy. Literally every single person in the verse, including every day people, have it. Its not something speciifc one has to have knowledge of and train to obtain like Kido spells for instance. Its a natural inate part of Reiatsu. When you have Reiatsu, you automatically have Reiryoku. Both are in the same package.
So thats why any verse's energy equivalant, when equalized with Bleach, should get Reiryoku. Because if you equal Reiatsu with their energy, you have to equalize Reiryoku with their energy too. It's not something you can selectively take away.
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The thing about Reiatsu is actually pretty iffy. During Ichigo and Kenpachi, we know Ichigo could emit enough to bypass Kenpachi's passive amount but he still failed for the first half and the moment he let his guard down he got skewered. Even if other verses get it that still doen't mean they magically know how to sharpen/strengthen their Reiatsu so they will just spend the match injuring themselves.
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Verse equalization doesn't and has never given you the powers of the verse it's being equalized to.
If one verse can use chi to fly, and another verse can use spirit energy to turn invisible for five seconds, they can be equalized, but the characters won't gain each other's abilities.
When Jojo's stands are equalized so that the opponent can see and harm them, they don't get a stand of their own.
Verse equalization just means that thing which require X, or only work on X, or don't work on X, can be equalized to have those restrictions equally apply to Y as well, if they're similar enough things.
If one verse can use chi to fly, and another verse can use spirit energy to turn invisible for five seconds, they can be equalized, but the characters won't gain each other's abilities.
When Jojo's stands are equalized so that the opponent can see and harm them, they don't get a stand of their own.
Verse equalization just means that thing which require X, or only work on X, or don't work on X, can be equalized to have those restrictions equally apply to Y as well, if they're similar enough things.
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Souls have Chakra. Chi, Spirit Energy, Reiryoku, etc. Come from the Soul typically. Nen (Aura) is described as Life Energy, which is just another name for Chi, which is Spirit Energy, and it's even called Chi in china. Plus, it's easier to just go with what falls under which tropes of Super Powers.
If we get verbal Confirmation from Togashi that Aura is not Spirit Energy, but some kind of Bio-Energy that is LITERALLY life energy, and not just an expression, then Aura isn't equalized. Until then, it should be.
If we get verbal Confirmation from Togashi that Aura is not Spirit Energy, but some kind of Bio-Energy that is LITERALLY life energy, and not just an expression, then Aura isn't equalized. Until then, it should be.
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This is what we been arguing the entire time,wether verse equaliztion will give other person powers or not they don't have.Agnaa said:
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That's not what the OP has been arguing about. That's not what Kukui's been arguing about.
So, is this settled then?
@Kukui You don't need to have knowledge or train to get a stand.
And I'm sure that someone more knowledgeable than me would be able to list out a dozen verses where some resource gives inherent abilities, but those still have never ever been equalized.
It's not the full package or nothing at all, you're not actually GIVING the character Reiatsu. You're just letting any abilities which specify "Only works on Reiatsu" or "Doesn't work on Reiatsu" now have 'Reiatsu' replaced by the spiritual energy of the other verse.
So, is this settled then?
@Kukui You don't need to have knowledge or train to get a stand.
And I'm sure that someone more knowledgeable than me would be able to list out a dozen verses where some resource gives inherent abilities, but those still have never ever been equalized.
It's not the full package or nothing at all, you're not actually GIVING the character Reiatsu. You're just letting any abilities which specify "Only works on Reiatsu" or "Doesn't work on Reiatsu" now have 'Reiatsu' replaced by the spiritual energy of the other verse.
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Yes but the major difference between Reiryoku and those abilities is the ones you mentioned are specific. They can be done, but only with intensive training and knowledge on how to use it in those variated methods.Agnaa said:
Just like how with Chakra, you dont automatically get Jutsu. You need to be taught how to form chakra, how to properly control and manipulate it, how to call upon it, the concept of hand-signs, etc.
Reiryoku on the other hand isnt something you need to have knowledge of or train for. Its apart of the Reiatsu itself, it's an automatic inherit ability of Reiatsu. You get Reiryoku just by having Reiatsu. So when you equalize Reiatsu with other verses energies you can't suddenly not give them Reiryoku.
Its either the full package or no package at all.
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Kukui is still arguing for other energies to grant its users the abilities of Reiryoku when against Bleach, ie giving them abilities they do not have.
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