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Verse Equalization
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Please stop making shit up,Shinigami aren't intangible for crying out loud.They literally lose their intangibility because of how much energy they have they become solid,so please stop spreading misinformation about intangible Shinigami.They're only invisible.
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@Yung
So racial abilities aren't allowed because they aren't "actual abilities". Hear that, Superman is a human for vs matches, Ainz loses all of his undead and overlord racial resistances, humans aren't allowed to walk etc etc. See how stupid that gets?
So racial abilities aren't allowed because they aren't "actual abilities". Hear that, Superman is a human for vs matches, Ainz loses all of his undead and overlord racial resistances, humans aren't allowed to walk etc etc. See how stupid that gets?
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1.) What are the Smurfs able to do (and are they the same blue Smurfs or a verse IDK at all?)
2.) Explain how someone would be able to get passed Invisibility, Intangibility, and a state of Non-Existence all combined into one? Your essentially fighting against something that, to you, is unseeable. It's untraceable. It's untouchable. Completely non-existent to you.
Other than the few sliver of verses in Bleach's tier that could probably get around that, like Shaman King for example, it's impossible for any other verse to work around this mechanic. And this is assuming Bleach Characters have this ability for themselves to begin with which is now being questioned.
3.) Not being able to do anything is not the same thing as the matchup being impossible to even happen. Basically, stomps are still matches that can happen, they'll just last a few moments because its a stomp. While in this case, we're talking about comparing characters that don't remotely exist towards each other. It's like trying to fight something that exists on another plane from their point of view. That makes it impossible for a match between them to even be possible to begin with.
Besides, for Bleach, you'd only be able to bypass their Invisibility and Intangibility by having suitable enough Reiryoku. Only a very few handful of verses in Bleaches tier have something that without Verse Equalization getting factored in, like Shaman King again for example. Restricting Matches in general is bad, but leaving like only 3 possible battles to happen by letting in an ability is absurd. You can't sacrifice 10 people to save 12.
4.) Like others and myself have said, no it isnt. A state of being mechanic =/= ability. Also, magic? Bleach isn't magic based.
5.) And what do you think most verses consist of? Spiritual power. Chakra, Chi, KI, etc. are all of that. So why would Verse Equalizing them to hit Bleach Characters be an issue to you?
6.) And why would anyone in Naruto without chakra be effected by this? Again, users with chakra are the focus. Not people without it. There's not a single Naruto character on this wikia that doesnt incorporate chakra into their jutsu's and moves. Not unless we're suddenly using characters like the Ramen guy or his fellow neighbor all of a sudden.
2.) Explain how someone would be able to get passed Invisibility, Intangibility, and a state of Non-Existence all combined into one? Your essentially fighting against something that, to you, is unseeable. It's untraceable. It's untouchable. Completely non-existent to you.
Other than the few sliver of verses in Bleach's tier that could probably get around that, like Shaman King for example, it's impossible for any other verse to work around this mechanic. And this is assuming Bleach Characters have this ability for themselves to begin with which is now being questioned.
3.) Not being able to do anything is not the same thing as the matchup being impossible to even happen. Basically, stomps are still matches that can happen, they'll just last a few moments because its a stomp. While in this case, we're talking about comparing characters that don't remotely exist towards each other. It's like trying to fight something that exists on another plane from their point of view. That makes it impossible for a match between them to even be possible to begin with.
Besides, for Bleach, you'd only be able to bypass their Invisibility and Intangibility by having suitable enough Reiryoku. Only a very few handful of verses in Bleaches tier have something that without Verse Equalization getting factored in, like Shaman King again for example. Restricting Matches in general is bad, but leaving like only 3 possible battles to happen by letting in an ability is absurd. You can't sacrifice 10 people to save 12.
4.) Like others and myself have said, no it isnt. A state of being mechanic =/= ability. Also, magic? Bleach isn't magic based.
5.) And what do you think most verses consist of? Spiritual power. Chakra, Chi, KI, etc. are all of that. So why would Verse Equalizing them to hit Bleach Characters be an issue to you?
6.) And why would anyone in Naruto without chakra be effected by this? Again, users with chakra are the focus. Not people without it. There's not a single Naruto character on this wikia that doesnt incorporate chakra into their jutsu's and moves. Not unless we're suddenly using characters like the Ramen guy or his fellow neighbor all of a sudden.
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To the perspective of normal non-spiritually talented people, yes they are intangible. Rukia literally says this and this was the reason for Non-Physical Interaction for this verse period.Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
What exactly is being made up?
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They don't have intangibility on their profiles,it's literally explained because of their spiritually dense body,they're still physical beings.Theyre simply invisible unlike fodder souls who are intangible.
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Rukia: "Normal humans can't touch Hollows or Soul Reapers."Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
Whats this about fodder souls only?
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Feel free to add intangibility to all the Shinigami and Souls profiles then.
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Kukui did you pay attention to the comments in the Non Physical Interaction thread even? It was literally explained there that the scan you keep using is mistranslated. It says Humans can touch Shinigami and Hollows due to the latter two having high spiritual density bodies that make them tangible unlike fodder souls that are low density.
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Its perfectly accurate. You are denying abilities for an entire verse because they are inherent racial traits. If you want to do that, the same logic must be applied to every other verse in that case, ie legs (an inherent trait of the average human), being enhanced by the sun (an inherent trait of being a kryptonian), Ainz resistances (inherent traits of undead that are even specified as racial traits) are not allowed. The double standards being proposed is ridiculous.
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My scan literally comes from the actual book copies you buy in book stores, like other manga, instead of online translations. It's from the actual Bleach books.IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
There's no way in hell that its mistranslated.
Wokistan
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Smurf is just a term for higher dimensional hax on low tiers
By doing so in verse. If you want to throw Nonexistent Physiology into the mix, there's a huge amount of Digimons not equalized. There's also the option of having spiritual energy that makes sense to equalize. Some Warhammer characters can do some weird warp stuff off the top of my head
Explain Dark Area digimon and White Face then. They just have matches closed for being stomps, they aren't forced to exist. 10 to 12 is a net gain btw so that analogy falls flat there.
Yeah it is. Inherent abilities are still abilities. Souls and spiritual stuff are generally pretty magical concepts, but I'm pretty sure you know what I mean by this and are just splitting hairs at this point.
It doesn't, as you can see from some of the examples of acceptable equalization. What would be a problem would be giving non spirituals like Hotline Miami characters that stuff.
Well, someone earlier said there are abilities that rely on an opponent having chakra to work, so that's relevant. To use an equivalent example I actually know stuff about, take the Culexus Assassin. Their abilities are far more potent on powerful psykers and daemons. The inverse is also true, with it not doing much to people who aren't like that. This means that someone like an Eversor Assassin or Dante would have an easier time against one than Ahzek Ahriman, for example. Equalizing spiritual magic whatever to people who don't have it is disregarding a canonical weakness of their ability, and is pretty silly.
By doing so in verse. If you want to throw Nonexistent Physiology into the mix, there's a huge amount of Digimons not equalized. There's also the option of having spiritual energy that makes sense to equalize. Some Warhammer characters can do some weird warp stuff off the top of my head
Explain Dark Area digimon and White Face then. They just have matches closed for being stomps, they aren't forced to exist. 10 to 12 is a net gain btw so that analogy falls flat there.
Yeah it is. Inherent abilities are still abilities. Souls and spiritual stuff are generally pretty magical concepts, but I'm pretty sure you know what I mean by this and are just splitting hairs at this point.
It doesn't, as you can see from some of the examples of acceptable equalization. What would be a problem would be giving non spirituals like Hotline Miami characters that stuff.
Well, someone earlier said there are abilities that rely on an opponent having chakra to work, so that's relevant. To use an equivalent example I actually know stuff about, take the Culexus Assassin. Their abilities are far more potent on powerful psykers and daemons. The inverse is also true, with it not doing much to people who aren't like that. This means that someone like an Eversor Assassin or Dante would have an easier time against one than Ahzek Ahriman, for example. Equalizing spiritual magic whatever to people who don't have it is disregarding a canonical weakness of their ability, and is pretty silly.
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It's ridiculous something like this needs to explained to someone who owns the Books and has read the series.Please stop using words like "Non-Existent" your indirectly misleading people as they will think all Bleach characters somehow have Non-Existent Physiology.
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And I read Japanese and could tell it is wrong. Do you realize how many times Viz has made mistakes in their translations? They personally add things even. Even Matt favors fan translation over Viz and you follow Matt vehemently.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
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This is such a big false equivalancy that it's not even funny.AnonymousBlank said:
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If Viz is never wrong then I can't wait to use 100 Mile Radius Poison for Mayuri instead of 182 Meter Radius. I can use it to find higher sizes for Seireitei and Las Noches.
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To regular people who don't have a shred of spiritual capability? Yes they are non-existent.Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
Stop ignoring this bit acting like im talking about everyone in general. Im not.
Wokistan
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Ainz's stuff does sound pretty equivalent, actually. The other stuff clearly isn't meant as seriously.
Explain why bleach dudes natures as souls granting abilities is different from Ainz's nature as an undead granting stuff.
Explain why bleach dudes natures as souls granting abilities is different from Ainz's nature as an undead granting stuff.
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For the smurfs then, what would that have to do with this?
What are you talking about? We definitely equalize Digimon here. In matches, if your against a Digimon your considered a virtual being with a Digicore (if thats what you meant). Ive asked the Digimon users myself in vs threads and was told this. And as for the spiritual energy bit, why would it have to make sense? Verse Equalization was to also prevent vs matches from being headache discussions about if their verses energy would be the same as the one they're fighting.
Considering I know characters who can face Dark Area Digimon and lose without stomping, thats a bad example. White Face ive argued against like once before but IDK much on him. And you missed the point of my analogy.
Thats just it. It's not an inherited ability. Its abusing a state of being case and the anti-feats of fodders to give them an ability. Thats not how this works.
Does this Hotline person have spirit energy of some kind in her verse? Like a specific life force they use for their powers?
Yes and how would relying on chakra to make moves work be relevant to this point? I thought you were talking about taking a naruto character without chakra, pitting it against bleach, and then suddenly giving them Reiryoku even when they don't use chakra. That I don't agree with. Also, what are psykers and daemons?
What are you talking about? We definitely equalize Digimon here. In matches, if your against a Digimon your considered a virtual being with a Digicore (if thats what you meant). Ive asked the Digimon users myself in vs threads and was told this. And as for the spiritual energy bit, why would it have to make sense? Verse Equalization was to also prevent vs matches from being headache discussions about if their verses energy would be the same as the one they're fighting.
Considering I know characters who can face Dark Area Digimon and lose without stomping, thats a bad example. White Face ive argued against like once before but IDK much on him. And you missed the point of my analogy.
Thats just it. It's not an inherited ability. Its abusing a state of being case and the anti-feats of fodders to give them an ability. Thats not how this works.
Does this Hotline person have spirit energy of some kind in her verse? Like a specific life force they use for their powers?
Yes and how would relying on chakra to make moves work be relevant to this point? I thought you were talking about taking a naruto character without chakra, pitting it against bleach, and then suddenly giving them Reiryoku even when they don't use chakra. That I don't agree with. Also, what are psykers and daemons?
Wokistan
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This is a viewpoint that I feel stems from misinterpreting my argument, but even if it was true, consider this.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
There exists something in Destiny called the Sword Logic. To greatly oversimplify, it is Might makes Right as a law of the Universe, and allows its wielders powerful Law Manipulation. To oversimplify again, the more you've killed the stronger you are. Now, people like The Warpriest and The Daughters of Oryx have killed absolute bare minimum quadrillions, and as such their Sword Logic is very impressive. Weaker beings in it are pretty irrelevant to the stronger users of this. It'd be pretty strange to suddenly give joe schmo the same law manip potency of an alien god with quadrillions of kills to fuel this power, now wouldn't it be?
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The last bit was very uncalled for and it isn't true. I take Matts word because he's someone in staff who consistently deals with bleach material in bleach discussions (other than Soldier Blue).IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
As for the former, if we're really going to be using fan-made translations for our own benefit instead of more official stuff than IDeK what to say to this now. Just because Viz is wrong about some stuff doesnt mean they're suddenly not reliable.
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Viz Translation
Fan Translation
Japanese Raws
We literally proved this in a previous thread, I should have to bring it up here when you were in that thread, Kukui. The results were even added.
Viz has Rukia saying that Hollows and Shinigami can't be touched by normal people while fan translations have Rukia saying that normal people actually can touch Hollows and Shinigami due to their high spiritual density.
Here are the raws:
µÖ«ÚÇÜÒü«õ║║ÚûôÒüºÒééÞºªÒéîÒéïÒüôÒü¿ÒüÉÒéëÒüäÒü»ÒüºÒüìÒéï ÒâÉÒé½Òü¬… ! þó║ÒüïÒü½ÞÖÜÒé䵡╗þÑ×Òü«ÒéêÒüåÒü½Õ»åÕ║ªÒü«Ú½ÿÒüäÚ£èõ¢ôÒü»µÖ«ÚÇÜÒü«õ║║ÚûôÒüºÒééÞºªÒéîÒéïÒüôÒü¿ÒüÉÒéëÒüäÒü»ÒüºÒüìÒéï…
The Japanese literally has Rukia saying what the Fan Translations had her saying. This is why you don't blindly take everything Viz says, they are known to modify and edit things.
Current Bleach profiles as a result of the linked thread did not have intangibility added. They had Invisibility and Non-Physical Interaction added only.
Anyone who is trying to make a point with intangibility (like what Weekly said above) doesn't even know what they're talking about.
Wokistan
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Having things like 1-A immortality tends to make victory outright impossible for one of the parties, and far fewer people can get around that than can just get around Bleach stuff. Still allowed.
Not talking about the existence as data, I'm talking about the ones that are straight up nonexistent. If you don't want to go there, we don't equalize White Face.
Why not. Everyone relevant has a common ability? Nothing wrong with that.
No they're just regular people who are strong and have weapons.
Not what I was talking about, no. Psykers are kinda like 40k wizards, who can use the warp for "magical" stuff. Daemons are pure warp energy given form. The greater a connection one has to the warp (to a point), the more devastating the effects of a Culexus Assassin. Psykers as strong as Ahzek Ahrima are sent into siezures from astral projecting too close to one, and a Lord of Change (powerful Daemon) was once straight up killed by being near one. This only works because they're magically powerful though. They don't just melt ordinary people's minds and bodies.
Not talking about the existence as data, I'm talking about the ones that are straight up nonexistent. If you don't want to go there, we don't equalize White Face.
Why not. Everyone relevant has a common ability? Nothing wrong with that.
No they're just regular people who are strong and have weapons.
Not what I was talking about, no. Psykers are kinda like 40k wizards, who can use the warp for "magical" stuff. Daemons are pure warp energy given form. The greater a connection one has to the warp (to a point), the more devastating the effects of a Culexus Assassin. Psykers as strong as Ahzek Ahrima are sent into siezures from astral projecting too close to one, and a Lord of Change (powerful Daemon) was once straight up killed by being near one. This only works because they're magically powerful though. They don't just melt ordinary people's minds and bodies.
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Because they aren't fighting against the 1-A incarnations of that character? That, and killing isnt the only possible way to win here obviously.
Because not every Digimon and their mother are non-existent like the Dark Area ones. They're specific Digimon, its not a generic concept in the Digimon verse. You keep using speciifc abilities that wouldnt be included in Verse Equalization. Anything thats above generic is not included. And what about White Face would even be equalizable?
Except, for the last time, it is not an actual ability. Its a combination of state of being and fodders lacking an ability for themselves. That doesnt grant abilities all of a sudden.
Wait a minute, weapons? So that means its a specific verse only thing. It wouldnt be included in Verse Equalization either as it wouldnt be Generic.
Reading this paragraph, im also not seeing how any of this would be included in Verse Equalization at all either.
Because not every Digimon and their mother are non-existent like the Dark Area ones. They're specific Digimon, its not a generic concept in the Digimon verse. You keep using speciifc abilities that wouldnt be included in Verse Equalization. Anything thats above generic is not included. And what about White Face would even be equalizable?
Except, for the last time, it is not an actual ability. Its a combination of state of being and fodders lacking an ability for themselves. That doesnt grant abilities all of a sudden.
Wait a minute, weapons? So that means its a specific verse only thing. It wouldnt be included in Verse Equalization either as it wouldnt be Generic.
Reading this paragraph, im also not seeing how any of this would be included in Verse Equalization at all either.
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I agree with IMade and the others.
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Alright Imade. Lets remove Intangibility from the discussion.
That still wouldnt allow Bleach Chracters to interact with their opponents if being invisible, unseeable and unsensible. Thats still practically making them non-existent to the opponent.
What would you expect them to do, randomly attack everything around them?
That still wouldnt allow Bleach Chracters to interact with their opponents if being invisible, unseeable and unsensible. Thats still practically making them non-existent to the opponent.
What would you expect them to do, randomly attack everything around them?
Wokistan
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Earlier, you argued to restrict bleach stuff because "it's unfair". Well, 1-A immortality is even less fair, and yet you're ok with that.
Quantity of an ability is irrelevant. White face is nonexistent.
Yes it does. Conceptual existence characters have abilities, immeasurable have abilities, ghosts have abilities, etc. None of your complaints about that stop their status from granting them abilities over muggles.
Kukui these dudes have spiritual literally nothing. They are people who are strong and have guns and melee weapons. Here's the verse page, take a look.
Because it's the exact same idea of an intrinsic characteristic to every hive god rendering a bunch of matches impossible, except it's now ok on the non bleach verse. Seems hypocritical.
Quantity of an ability is irrelevant. White face is nonexistent.
Yes it does. Conceptual existence characters have abilities, immeasurable have abilities, ghosts have abilities, etc. None of your complaints about that stop their status from granting them abilities over muggles.
Kukui these dudes have spiritual literally nothing. They are people who are strong and have guns and melee weapons. Here's the verse page, take a look.
Because it's the exact same idea of an intrinsic characteristic to every hive god rendering a bunch of matches impossible, except it's now ok on the non bleach verse. Seems hypocritical.
Wokistan
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Alright Imade. Lets remove Intangibility from the discussion.
That still wouldnt allow Bleach Chracters to interact with their opponents if being invisible, unseeable and unsensible. Thats still practically making them non-existent to the opponent.
What would you expect them to do, randomly attack everything around them?
Some characters would do that lol
That still wouldnt allow Bleach Chracters to interact with their opponents if being invisible, unseeable and unsensible. Thats still practically making them non-existent to the opponent.
What would you expect them to do, randomly attack everything around them?
Some characters would do that lol
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How is 1A unfair to other characters who are 1Aƒÿæƒÿæ. No one is getting the short end of the stick cause only 1A characters have that immortality and only 1A characters can fight against each other so that shouldn't even apply for being unfair
Also it's not an ability but a state of being that happens naturally.
Also it's not an ability but a state of being that happens naturally.
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Being invisible to opponents doesn't really makings things a stomp. Especially the opponent has Enhanced Senses, precog and such. Like how Kenbunshoko Haki works in One Piece they'd be able to see Shinigami with it despite them not having anything to equalize.
Wokistan
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Actually, some non 1-As have it. Horus Lupercal, Reinhard Heydrich, Yakou Madara, and there's other varying degrees of insurmountable higher dimensional immortality.
Doesn't matter. The state of being translates over to abilities when compared to those that aren't like that.
Doesn't matter. The state of being translates over to abilities when compared to those that aren't like that.
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That's an ability to their race,let's downgrade Ainz to human cause of his racial abilities lmao.
Wokistan
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Should Cthulhu lose intangibility because it is due to his state of being rather than an actual power? The matter Cthulhu is made of can't properly interact with our universe.
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@Kukui
If you have energy sensing capabilities or the abilities to see souls characters can still fight Bleach ones. We are saying (at least I am) that energy between verses are equalised but not the inherent abilities it grants people. This means that Madara would be able absorb a kido blast but he wouldn't be able to air walk.
If you have energy sensing capabilities or the abilities to see souls characters can still fight Bleach ones. We are saying (at least I am) that energy between verses are equalised but not the inherent abilities it grants people. This means that Madara would be able absorb a kido blast but he wouldn't be able to air walk.
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For Pete's sake just do it like Jump vs and Jump force and just take away that state of being. That's the main reason why this thread is still on goingcause people are confusing a state of being with an abilityƒñªÔÇìÔÖé´©Å
In any other verse like this for example what if Saint Seiya characters had an cosmo ability that only let other cosmos see them. That's not a state of being but ability. With Bleach it's not an ability because you literally can not see spirits, souls, and ghost in the first place because of their "make up" bruh
In any other verse like this for example what if Saint Seiya characters had an cosmo ability that only let other cosmos see them. That's not a state of being but ability. With Bleach it's not an ability because you literally can not see spirits, souls, and ghost in the first place because of their "make up" bruh
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That's exactly how the Shinigami are in Bleach,they're made of spiritual matter which is invisible to people that aren't spiritually aware.It also doesn't mix well with normal matter (Kishi).Wokistan said:
Wokistan
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No, the entire purpose of this thread is to say that we shouldn't. You're not gonna rebut that with a simple "no".
Those two descriptors sounded exactly the same...
Those two descriptors sounded exactly the same...
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Because the 1-A versions of them are not being used in the lower tier match. Defeat the incarnation of that tier and you'd win. You don't have to kill opponents to win here, there are many win conditions. And your talking to someone who actually hates the idea of that level of immortality being allowed in matches.Wokistan said:
No, its very relevant because its not the verse standard. Specific abilities that only select individuals have are untouched by Verse Equalization. Abilities that everyone and their mother have would. Like White Face. He isnt the standard for his verse, so why would his Non-existence be equalized with the opponent?
Because there is a world of a difference between grating abilities to a select few in the verse and nearly everyone in the verse. Plus the ones your mentioning aren't relying on fodder having disabilities to push themselves up. Bleach does immensely.
Then that means this specific verse only doesnt get it if they don't manipulate a kind of spiritual energy.
But again, those abilities dont seem to be generic ones and are not relying on states of beings and the anti-feats of a verse's fodder to boost yourself up. And if it does, here's a thought. That verse needs to have their stuff taken away too then.
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