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Venuzdonoa Downgrade (Improved Argument)

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Tatsumi504 said:
Has happened 3 times already. This is the fourth in a space of 2yrs. Same exact arguments
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We should make a staff discussion on this and make sure it doesn’t happen again

我觉得你的辰巳很酷。 （顺便说一句，这是谷歌翻译的中文，因为即使我是中国人，我也不会再读或写了）
 
Artorimachi_Meteoraft said:
I’m not knowledgeable on MG but can I start the OP for the discussion rule since I brought it up first? (Just help get permission from the mods)
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Thanks for the help
Artorimachi_Meteoraft said:
4th thread (mind giving me links to the previous 3?)
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vsbattles.com

Venuzdonoa/Anos possible downgrade

This is my first CRT. I believe Venuzdonoa shouldn't be 2-B. Here's why Note: Every scan and translation were gotten from past CRTs, the accepted cosmology blog for the verse and Anos page as I am not quite knowledgeable on the verse. Reason why Venuzdonoa is 2-B "Venuzdonoa can destroy all...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
vsbattles.com

Venuzdonoa/Anos possible downgrade

This is my first CRT. I believe Venuzdonoa shouldn't be 2-B. Here's why Note: Every scan and translation were gotten from past CRTs, the accepted cosmology blog for the verse and Anos page as I am not quite knowledgeable on the verse. Reason why Venuzdonoa is 2-B "Venuzdonoa can destroy all...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
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What should the discussion rule be called exactly.

I know it should be along the lines of

Please do not attempt to downgrade anos and venuzdonoa based on the silver sea something. It has been discussed here here and here. The staff are tired of this
 
MaxLevel_King said:
This isn't helping the case you're trying to make against me. You've just stated that the Destruction of the World via disrupting Order simply means that it can't function, not that the World is literally destroyed. And what I'm arguing is that affecting the Order of the Silver Sea doesn't equal destruction of the structure/cosmology of the Silver Sea itself. On top of that, the only Order that the Silver Sea is said to have is that Fire Dew flows from Shallow to Deep (assuming that the Silver Sea itself has other Orders is pure headcanon, and you would have to prove as such). Affecting or disrupting said Order wouldn't even harm the Silver Sea itself, it would simply disrupt the function of how powerful a World's magic is depending on how Deep or Shallow it is.

". . .not support the world".

Wrong. If a World depends on Order not being disturbed in order to maintain it's existence and continue to function properly, then Order is obviously supporting said World's existence.
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doppio-diavolo.gif


I pity you making the same arguments over and over


diavolo-hit.gif


Not (Pokemonfan is pissed)


(pokemonfan is my old name btw)
 
Since you guys keep claiming that I'm reusing the exact same arguments from the previous three threads, I'm reposting this;
MaxLevel_King said:
That's not even remotely true. In my initial posting, the first 3 points I've brought up were the ones that were "debunked". However, my main argument was the 4th point, and if the 4th point was true, then the first 3 points that were "debunked" immediately become relevant because they provide context. Then, people started to shift the arguments for Venuzdonoa in this thread, so I shifted my arguments as well. This isn't a case of "this has already been debunked before" as you claim. On top of that, you aren't the only three people in this thread. There are a few people who agree, and a few people who lean towards neutral as well. There is no reason for this thread to be unilaterally closed because you claim that everything has been debunked.
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MaxLevel_King said:
(Revised)

Summary of the current arguments in this thread;

Arguments for Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea:

1. Venuzdonoa was stated to be capable of destroying all of existence

2. Venuzdonoa has no anti-feats to that statement

3. Venuzdonoa scales to Anos and it was stated that as a Lion of Destruction, he is "fated to destroy the Silver Sea"

4. Anos destroyed Elmide who controlled the Vortex which was called the Great Calamity of the Silver Sea. (Revised) The Vortex is in the Abyssal World at the bottom of the Silver Sea's 99 Layers, so given how the superiority of Worlds are determined by their depth, Venuzdonoa scales to the Silver Sea because Venuzdonoa scales to Anos and Anos destroyed said Vortex.

(Revised) 5. Characters in the Silver Sea have reversed the flow of Order (that Fire Dew flows from Shallow to Deep) in the Silver Sea. Therefore, if characters that Venuzdonoa scales above can affect the entire Silver Sea, then of course Venuzdonoa can as well

(My) Arguments against Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea:

1. Anos didn't know about the existence of Bubbles or the Silver Sea when he made that statement. What he was referring to as "all of existence" was the World (Militia World) and everything in it.

2. People claim that Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds prove that there are no anti-feats to the statement. However, Deeper Worlds are still "all of existence" as Anos referred to, just like the Militia World is. Worlds (All of existence as was referred to by Anos at the time of the statement as he lacked knowledge of the Silver Sea) can't even survive in the environment of the Silver Sea without being surrounded by a Bubble, as the Silver Sea constantly drains magic power from everything it touches. The Silver Sea and the Worlds in the Silver Sea are not the same thing. Claiming that the statement about Venuzdonoa being capable of destroying "All of existence" also applies to the Silver Sea itself would be equating the Worlds in the Silver Sea to the actual Silver Sea, and they very clearly aren't the same thing. On top of that, Venuzdonoa has no feats even remotely comparable to that.

3. The narrative itself never stated that Anos was fated to destroy the Silver Sea. Parrington, a near-perfect Lion of Destruction did. Parrington's knowledge of the Lions of Destruction stems from the conceptual Lion of Destruction that all other Lions of Destruction (including Anos) are incarnations of. The conceptual Lion of Destruction has no feats of even affecting the Silver Sea itself. In fact, it is completely featless. Moreover, "fated to destroy the Silver Sea" can have different interpretations. It doesn't neccessarily mean that Anos could destroy the entire Silver Sea at once. The only way to determine which interpretation is most likely to be correct is by going off of previous feats in the series. And no feats in the series even remotely support that interpretation. Remember, Parrington himself is a near-perfect Lion of Destruction, and in Anos' fight with him, they only affected a single Deep World. Said Deep World wasn't even destroyed, and you have to remember that there are countless Worlds in each layer, and 99+ layers. No feats or statements in the series support or prove the interpretation of Parrington's statement that Anos can literally destroy the entire Silver Sea at once.

4. The Vortex being called the "Great Calamity of the Silver Sea" doesn't mean that it was a threat to the structure of the Silver Sea itself. All that was stated of it was that it damaged many small worlds. Nowhere was it stated that it affected the Silver Sea itself. You can even confirm this by checking the scans that Eldemade posted in an above comment. On top of that, while damaging many small worlds is an impressive feat, it isn't remotely comparable to the entire cosmology of the Silver Sea. (Revised) The Vortex that Anos destroyed isn't the Vortex in the Abyssal World of the Silver Sea. What Anos destroyed was the Vortex in the Abyss of Craving of the Calamity Abyss World. Despite their names sounding similar, the Calamity Abyss World is not the Abyssal World that lies at the bottom of the Silver Sea's 99 Layers. On top of that, in the story it is stated that only the Great Demon King Zinnia Shivaheld has reached the Abyss of the Silver Sea. In the scans I've provided up above, it states that only Issac (Yzak) has reached the Abyss. These two statements "contradict" because they aren't referring to the same Abyss. I would also like to add that the Abyssal World is always referred to as such. Never also as "the Abyss World" or something else. You can reference the scans I posted above (which make a distinction between the Abyssal World and the Calamity Abyss World) as well as the MGnF cosmology page on the wiki (which only refers to the Abyssal World as the Abyssal World). The wiki scan is from chapter 584.

(Revised) 5. Characters reversing the flow of Order in the Silver Sea isn't equivalent to affecting the cosmology/structure of the Silver Sea itself (ie the Silver Sea isn't dependent on Order). Claiming that it does would be making an equivalence between the Worlds in the Silver Sea to the Silver Sea itself. While it's stated that Worlds in the Silver Sea are dependent on their Order in order to survive, that is not stated of the Silver Sea itself, and once again, the Worlds in the Silver Sea are not the same as the Silver Sea itself. On top of that, Anos disturbing the Order of Destruction in his World by turning it into Venuzdonoa which allowed for resurrection and reincarnation to become easier didn't affect the rest of the Silver Sea. We know this because no one else in the Silver Sea even treated reincarnation as a viable concept. What we do know is that Order exists in Worlds, and that Order exists in the Silver Sea as well. It has been stated and demonstrated that Worlds are dependent on Order in order to function and survive. This has not been stated of the Silver Sea. Assuming that the Silver Sea is dependent on Order just the same as the Worlds in the Silver Sea are is merely false equivalency. Even the Order of the Silver Sea (Fire Dew flows from Shallow to Deep) being reversed simply affects whether deep magic is capable of being used in Shallow Worlds, or if shallow magic can be deepened in order to be used in Deep Worlds. In other words, it only affects the power of magic in Worlds depending on the depth of said Worlds, not the Layers themselves or the Silver Sea as a whole. There is no concrete or implied proof of such either.

Keep in mind, this is just a summary of the points made. The thread itself provides more context to these arguments, both for and against.
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On top of all that, none of my counter-arguments have even been debunked. The only point you're arguing right now is #5. The previous 4 points haven't been debunked, so I don't know why you're acting like you've won the debate.
 
MaxLevel_King said:
Since you guys keep claiming that I'm reusing the exact same arguments from the previous three threads, I'm reposting this;


On top of all that, none of my counter-arguments have even been debunked. The only point you're arguing right now is #5. The previous 4 points haven't been debunked, so I don't know why you're acting like you've won the debate.
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enuma-elish-fate-grand-order.gif


Time for me to enuma elish this guy
 
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What is the current reasoning for Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea, and how have my points not debunked said reasoning?
 
Artorimachi_Meteoraft said:
thanks but I just need to know what the discussion rule should look like because you already gave me the evidence of previous arguments

I just need to know what the rule looks like so I can type it in on the OP after staff permission of course
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@EldemadeDityjon got the evidence aka the links, just need to know what to say as I’m not knowledgeable in this series.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
Regular characters can reverse the flow of order in the sea not to mention Venuzdonoa that can destroy anything regardless of what it is and can destroy order itself
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Thank you for actually responding to that. I'll have to argue with you on point #5 then. However, what you just said didn't debunk points #1 or #2.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
Points 1 & 2 are still art of what was said in previous threads. You haven't said anything about my last reply either.
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Points 1 and 2 being part of what was said in previous threads is irrelevant, as the points were "debunked" by themselves. However, with Points 1 and 2 being apart of my entire argument (all 5 points), they become relevant again. And as I've said, you haven't debunked them.

One thing I need to ask (Yes I've read the story but I need to make sure that we're on the same page). The Order of the Silver Sea is that Fire Dew flows from shallow to deep, correct?

Another thing, would you also agree that you can't only affect a part of Order?
 
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MaxLevel_King said:
The Order of the Silver Sea is that Fire Dew flows from shallow to deep, correct?
Click to expand...
No, it also possesses order of destruction, creation, time etc as the creator god can't create something that's against the order (silver sea order) that gave birth to it.
MaxLevel_King said:
Another thing, would you also agree that you can't only affect a part of Order?
Click to expand...
You literally can. Individual orders like time, regeneration, sound exist. Deep wotld characters can reverse the flow of order in the entire sea to bring deep concepts & laws to shallow layers
 
One last thing I'll say before I completely log off for now. Aside from the fact that my entire argument as a whole (all 5 points in my revised summary comment) isn't what has been brought up in the previous downgrade attempts, the parts of my argument that were brought up back then (remember, they become relevant when part of this entire argument) are much more nuanced. Said parts are similar to the previous ones, but they're actually explaining something more nuanced. If you go back to the previous threads and then go back to my thread, you should see the difference. However, I'll provide a brief example;

The "all of creation/existence" argument was indeed brought up before. Anos not having any knowledge of the Silver Sea hasn't changed in the argument. However, the difference is that the previous argument simply said that Anos was only referring to his universe, therefore it couldn't destroy the Silver Sea. My current argument is that what Anos referred to as "all of existence" was the World, and Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds is still Venuzdonoa working in "all of existence" as Anos meant when he made that statement. However, Worlds (what he referred to as "all of existence") in the Silver Sea and the Silver Sea itself aren't the same thing. There's a bit more to my argument, but you get the point. Feel free to refer to my summary comment up above for my full reasonings.
 
MaxLevel_King said:
My current argument is that what Anos referred to as "all of existence" was the World, and Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds is still Venuzdonoa working in "all of existence" as Anos meant when he made that statement.
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  1. Anos subconsciously had knowledge of things (laws, concepts) outside the world even if he wasn't concious of it.
  2. Order is still part of existence. The Order inside the bubble is the exact same order that exists in the silver sea.
  3. Venuzdonoa's statement says "regardless of x" not "whether it is x" meaning anos knowledge doesn't matter.
  4. Inferior characters and powers ate already capable of affecting things that you say are not included in "all of existence"
 
Artorimachi_Meteoraft said:
@EldemadeDityjon got the evidence aka the links, just need to know what to say as I’m not knowledgeable in this series.
Click to expand...
Tatsumi504 said:
  1. Anos subconsciously had knowledge of things (laws, concepts) outside the world even if he wasn't concious of it.
  2. Order is still part of existence. The Order inside the bubble is the exact same order that exists in the silver sea.
  3. Venuzdonoa's statement says "regardless of x" not "whether it is x" meaning anos knowledge doesn't matter.
  4. Inferior characters and powers ate already capable of affecting things that you say are not included in "all of existence"
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This sums up all.

Additionally Venozdonor is created by Anos right eye. Anos already has statement for destroying Silver Sea as Lion of Artzenon. Also Anos stomped Vortex Created by Elmide Puppet. Elmide Puppet was created to invade Abyssal world. Abyssal World has a vortex which was mentioned multiple times as Great disaster of Silver Sea itself. And Abyss World Vortex even has feat for affecting Silver Sea in the past. So in conclusion. All feats statement backs up Venozdonor backs up. Only description should be changed to avoid confusion.
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
This sums up all.

Additionally Venozdonor is created by Anos right eye. Anos already has statement for destroying Silver Sea as Lion of Artzenon. Also Anos stomped Vortex Created by Elmide Puppet. Elmide Puppet was created to invade Abyssal world. Abyssal World has a vortex which was mentioned multiple times as Great disaster of Silver Sea itself. And Abyss World Vortex even has feat for affecting Silver Sea in the past. So in conclusion. All feats statement backs up Venozdonor backs up. Only description should be changed to avoid confusion.
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so this should be summary of the discussion rule, i already asked dread if she could help me get permission from staff so i can make the OP but i have to wait for now.

If she doesn't arrive yet you guys could help me i guess, or do you guys want to make the OP?
 
Tatsumi504 said:
  1. Anos subconsciously had knowledge of things (laws, concepts) outside the world even if he wasn't concious of it.
  2. Order is still part of existence. The Order inside the bubble is the exact same order that exists in the silver sea.
  3. Venuzdonoa's statement says "regardless of x" not "whether it is x" meaning anos knowledge doesn't matter.
  4. Inferior characters and powers ate already capable of affecting things that you say are not included in "all of existence"
Click to expand...
1. Anos made that "All of existence" statement conciously. Him subconciously knowing some things at the time doesn't change the meaning of his concious statement.
2. No. We know that the Order of a World is more powerful the deeper the World is. We also know that affecting Order in one World has no effect on the rest of the Silver Sea (because Anos disturbing the Order of Destruction in his World didn't affect the rest of the Silver Sea). On top of that, while the Order in a World is more powerful depending on how deep the World is, that says nothing of the Silver Sea itself, which is vastly superior to every single World within it. Overall, this isn't a strong point to make.
3. How could that matter when Venuzdonoa had no reference beyond the World to begin with? As far as he knew at the time, regardless applied. Read points #1 and #2 of my summary for further clarification.
4. Really? When has another characters in the series affected something beyond a Deep World?
 
EldemadeDityjon said:
This sums up all.

Additionally Venozdonor is created by Anos right eye. Anos already has statement for destroying Silver Sea as Lion of Artzenon. Also Anos stomped Vortex Created by Elmide Puppet. Elmide Puppet was created to invade Abyssal world. Abyssal World has a vortex which was mentioned multiple times as Great disaster of Silver Sea itself. And Abyss World Vortex even has feat for affecting Silver Sea in the past. So in conclusion. All feats statement backs up Venozdonor backs up. Only description should be changed to avoid confusion.
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. . .

Look, Tatsumi's comment had something going for it. However, I've already argued against all the points you made and then summarized it, which you've completely ignored. You're beating on a dead horse at this rate.
 
If you're going to argue against something, try and argue against my counter-points to what's been brought up. Don't just repeat the same arguments over and over while ignoring said counter-points.
 
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