Venuzdonoa Downgrade (Improved Argument)

[Tatsumi504]

I tried but it didn't worked . His ignorance is beyond my capabilities.

Use the Order of the Heavenly Father God

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Use the Order of the Heavenly Father God

I would rather read some Manhwas instead of helping the OP to revive ancient King.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Worlds are dependent on Order. What you're doing right now is equating Worlds to the Silver Sea itself. The Order of the Silver Sea that Fire Dew flows from Shallow to Deep affect the Worlds in those layers, not the layers themselves. It has also never been stated to affected the layers either. That would be pure headcanon.

The World's depth is the strength of the World's Order. It refers to the great influence the Small Worlds have on the Silver Sea. Magic power flows from the Shallow Layer to the Deep Layer, and the Order exerts its power from Shallow to Deep."

"According to the Order of the Silver Sea, magic power flows to the deep layer and the Order exerts its power to the depths.

Order has been explained already in the series to govern everything. Not does the series use "limited order" to refer to order in worlds, it clearly says "the order of the silver sea".

Also, see that part i not only bolded but gave an extra large font? The worlds themselves affect the sea. Retrograde formulas change the flow of order in the silver sea itself.

Fire dew is permeated throughout the sea not just the bubbles cause magic power can be absorbed from the silver sea (sea of trees, the ship of the inviolable territorial water, Noah), magic power comes from fire dew

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Fire dew is permeated throughout the sea not just the bubbles cause magic power can be absorbed from the silver sea (sea of trees, the ship of the inviolable territorial water, Noah), magic power comes from fire dew

6D power absorption for the ship confirmed

 

[Tatsumi504]

1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.
2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

Order has been explained already in the series to govern everything. Not does the series use "limited order" to refer to order in worlds, it clearly says "the order of the silver sea".

Also, see that part i not only bolded but gave an extra large font? The worlds themselves affect the sea. Retrograde formulas change the flow of order in the silver sea itself.

Fire dew is permeated throughout the sea not just the bubbles cause magic power can be absorbed from the silver sea (sea of trees, the ship of the inviolable territorial water, Noah), magic power comes from fire dew

I will say this; You've completely missed the point I was making. The Silver Sea has an Order, yes. However, reversing the flow of said Order doesn't affect the structure/cosmology of the Silver Sea itself (as in, it wouldn't lead to the destruction of the Silver Sea structure). You also have no proof in the story that it does. You're equating Worlds in the Silver Sea being dependent on said Order in order to survive to the Silver Sea itself, when that has never been stated nor demonstrated about the Silver Sea.

On top of that, Anos disturbing the Order of Destruction in his World by creating Venuzdonoa which allowed people to ressurrect and reincarnate easier had no effect on the rest of the Silver Sea. We know this because no one else in the Silver Sea considered reincarnation to be a legitimate thing.

And yeah. The "influence" that small worlds have on the Silver Sea refers to how powerful the magic of said Worlds are depending on how deep they are in the Silver Sea.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

(Revised)

Summary of the current arguments in this thread;

Arguments for Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea:

1. Venuzdonoa was stated to be capable of destroying all of existence

2. Venuzdonoa has no anti-feats to that statement

3. Venuzdonoa scales to Anos and it was stated that as a Lion of Destruction, he is "fated to destroy the Silver Sea"

4. Anos destroyed Elmide who controlled the Vortex which was called the Great Calamity of the Silver Sea. (Revised) The Vortex is in the Abyssal World at the bottom of the Silver Sea's 99 Layers, so given how the superiority of Worlds are determined by their depth, Venuzdonoa scales to the Silver Sea because Venuzdonoa scales to Anos and Anos destroyed said Vortex.

(Revised) 5. Characters in the Silver Sea have reversed the flow of Order (that Fire Dew flows from Shallow to Deep) in the Silver Sea. Therefore, if characters that Venuzdonoa scales above can affect the entire Silver Sea, then of course Venuzdonoa can as well

(My) Arguments against Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea:

1. Anos didn't know about the existence of Bubbles or the Silver Sea when he made that statement. What he was referring to as "all of existence" was the World (Militia World) and everything in it.

2. People claim that Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds prove that there are no anti-feats to the statement. However, Deeper Worlds are still "all of existence" as Anos referred to, just like the Militia World is. Worlds (All of existence as was referred to by Anos at the time of the statement as he lacked knowledge of the Silver Sea) can't even survive in the environment of the Silver Sea without being surrounded by a Bubble, as the Silver Sea constantly drains magic power from everything it touches. The Silver Sea and the Worlds in the Silver Sea are not the same thing. Claiming that the statement about Venuzdonoa being capable of destroying "All of existence" also applies to the Silver Sea itself would be equating the Worlds in the Silver Sea to the actual Silver Sea, and they very clearly aren't the same thing. On top of that, Venuzdonoa has no feats even remotely comparable to that.

3. The narrative itself never stated that Anos was fated to destroy the Silver Sea. Parrington, a near-perfect Lion of Destruction did. Parrington's knowledge of the Lions of Destruction stems from the conceptual Lion of Destruction that all other Lions of Destruction (including Anos) are incarnations of. The conceptual Lion of Destruction has no feats of even affecting the Silver Sea itself. In fact, it is completely featless. Moreover, "fated to destroy the Silver Sea" can have different interpretations. It doesn't neccessarily mean that Anos could destroy the entire Silver Sea at once. The only way to determine which interpretation is most likely to be correct is by going off of previous feats in the series. And no feats in the series even remotely support that interpretation. Remember, Parrington himself is a near-perfect Lion of Destruction, and in Anos' fight with him, they only affected a single Deep World. Said Deep World wasn't even destroyed, and you have to remember that there are countless Worlds in each layer, and 99+ layers. No feats or statements in the series support or prove the interpretation of Parrington's statement that Anos can literally destroy the entire Silver Sea at once.

4. The Vortex being called the "Great Calamity of the Silver Sea" doesn't mean that it was a threat to the structure of the Silver Sea itself. All that was stated of it was that it damaged many small worlds. Nowhere was it stated that it affected the Silver Sea itself. You can even confirm this by checking the scans that Eldemade posted in an above comment. On top of that, while damaging many small worlds is an impressive feat, it isn't remotely comparable to the entire cosmology of the Silver Sea. (Revised) The Vortex that Anos destroyed isn't the Vortex in the Abyssal World of the Silver Sea. What Anos destroyed was the Vortex in the Abyss of Craving of the Calamity Abyss World. Despite their names sounding similar, the Calamity Abyss World is not the Abyssal World that lies at the bottom of the Silver Sea's 99 Layers. On top of that, in the story it is stated that only the Great Demon King Zinnia Shivaheld has reached the Abyss of the Silver Sea. In the scans I've provided up above, it states that only Issac (Yzak) has reached the Abyss. These two statements "contradict" because they aren't referring to the same Abyss. I would also like to add that the Abyssal World is always referred to as such. Never also as "the Abyss World" or something else. You can reference the scans I posted above (which make a distinction between the Abyssal World and the Calamity Abyss World) as well as the MGnF cosmology page on the wiki (which only refers to the Abyssal World as the Abyssal World). The wiki scan is from chapter 584.

(Revised) 5. Characters reversing the flow of Order in the Silver Sea isn't equivalent to affecting the cosmology/structure of the Silver Sea itself (ie the Silver Sea isn't dependent on Order). Claiming that it does would be making an equivalence between the Worlds in the Silver Sea to the Silver Sea itself. While it's stated that Worlds in the Silver Sea are dependent on their Order in order to survive, that is not stated of the Silver Sea itself, and once again, the Worlds in the Silver Sea are not the same as the Silver Sea itself. On top of that, Anos disturbing the Order of Destruction in his World by turning it into Venuzdonoa which allowed for resurrection and reincarnation to become easier didn't affect the rest of the Silver Sea. We know this because no one else in the Silver Sea even treated reincarnation as a viable concept. What we do know is that Order exists in Worlds, and that Order exists in the Silver Sea as well. It has been stated and demonstrated that Worlds are dependent on Order in order to function and survive. This has not been stated of the Silver Sea. Assuming that the Silver Sea is dependent on Order just the same as the Worlds in the Silver Sea are is merely false equivalency. Even the Order of the Silver Sea (Fire Dew flows from Shallow to Deep) being reversed simply affects whether deep magic is capable of being used in Shallow Worlds, or if shallow magic can be deepened in order to be used in Deep Worlds. In other words, it only affects the power of magic in Worlds depending on the depth of said Worlds, not the Layers themselves or the Silver Sea as a whole. There is no concrete or implied proof of such either.

Keep in mind, this is just a summary of the points made. The thread itself provides more context to these arguments, both for and against.

 

[Sacchan]

I agree let debunk venuzdonoa and every other weapons in this wiki to 0D!!!

I disagree with this thread

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Yeah at this point there should be a discussion rule against these kinds of threads, it's really headache to deal each time.

That’s what I brought up in the MG discussion thread.

we should make a discussion rule for MG

 

[MaxLevel_King]

That’s what I brought up in the MG discussion thread.

we should make a discussion rule for MG

I suppose if this thread gets rejected then that would be fair, as I've brought up everything that could've possibly been brought up (well, there's 1 additional point I could make, but I'll only bring it up if I need to).

As for right now however, my arguments haven't been debunked.

 

[Fixxed]

Is this over so i can make a CRT???

 

[Mafuuu]

Is this over so i can make a CRT???

Hmm, I see.....

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There seems to be way too much to go over, but for the time being. I am inclined to believe Dereck makes the most sense here.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

I

There seems to be way too much to go over, but for the time being. I am inclined to believe Dereck makes the most sense here.

I've provided a summary of every argument for Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea as well as all of my counter-arguments in comment #367. That should help.

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

I also think Dereck make the most sense here.
AKA I also disagree on the thread.

 

[RitsuØ1]

I

I've provided a summary of every argument for Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea as well as all of my counter-arguments in comment #367. That should help.

I'm almost certain he meant that he read through everything and found Dereck's post most promising.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

I'm almost certain he meant that he read through everything and found Dereck's post most promising.

If that's the case, then so be it. I wasn't sure however, so I pointed him to my summary just in case.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

That's not even remotely true. In my initial posting, the first 3 points I've brought up were the ones that were "debunked". However, my main argument was the 4th point, and if the 4th point was true, then the first 3 points that were "debunked" immediately become relevant because they provide context. Then, people started to shift the arguments for Venuzdonoa in this thread, so I shifted my arguments as well. This isn't a case of "this has already been debunked before" as you claim. On top of that, you aren't the only three people in this thread. There are a few people who agree, and a few people who lean towards neutral as well. There is no reason for this thread to be unilaterally closed because you claim that everything has been debunked.

As Dereck03 keeps claiming that I'm reusing the exact same arguments that were debunked years ago, I'm reposting this in order to argue in my defense. What also needs to be taken into consideration is that the parts of my argument that have already been "debunked" are more advanced and nuanced than the arguments from years ago.

Note: I've reposted my summaries a few times so they wouldn't get lost in the thread. But the most comprehensive summary is comment #367. It includes every argument in this thread for or against scaling Venuzdonoa to the Silver Sea.

 

[Dereck03]

Yeah whatever, now it's just time to wait for staff evaluation, so you are not going to see me re-arguing again, on the contrary you can keep re-writing everything every time someone disagrees so you don't take the votes as against.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

Yeah whatever, now it's just time to wait for staff evaluation, so you are not going to see me re-arguing again, on the contrary you can keep re-writing everything every time someone disagrees so you don't take the votes as against.

If people use new arguments to support Venuzdonoa's scaling, then I will use new counter-arguments. It's as simple as that.

That aside, fair enough. I have no problems waiting for the staff evaluation.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

I'm not sure if I can summon the staff here myself, but I might as well.

@Emirp sumitpo @Just_a_Random_Butler @Maverick_Zero_X @ZackMoon1234 @Qawsedf234 @Psychomaster35

This thread is mostly over. Could you guys come and evaluate it? There are a lot of posts, but I've left a comprehensive summary of the overall thread on Comment #367. Of course, feel free to read through the rest of the thread.

 

[Dereck03]

Normal members can't ping staff.

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

Disagree with this thread, because what Dereck said, makes perfect sense to me.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I

I've provided a summary of every argument for Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea as well as all of my counter-arguments in comment #367. That should help.

Stop being condensing that's not how it's work. You don't have any right to make opposition summary.

Anyway two staff disagrees with the thread.

 

[Dereck03]

Drop the talk @EldemadeDityjon... we are just waiting for more staff evaluation.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Drop the talk @EldemadeDityjon... we are just waiting for more staff evaluation.

Sorry but as you can see he is acting condensing like making summary of our argument with 3-4 lines & dropping his own summary with large Paragraphs. I was just pointing out that's not how it works.

Anyway I will stop.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Characters reversing the flow of Order in the Silver Sea isn't equivalent to affecting the cosmology/structure of the Silver Sea itself (ie the Silver Sea isn't dependent on Order).

You really don't know what a type 1 concept is do you?

 

[Tatsumi504]

And yeah. The "influence" that small worlds have on the Silver Sea refers to how powerful the magic of said Worlds are depending on how deep they are in the Silver Sea.

No it doesn't. The silver sea itself dictates that the deeper the world is the stronger they are.

Type 1 concepts are concepts that are independent of what they govern. Changing these concepts will also change every object in the reality they govern.

Order=laws & concepts. The silver sea possesses it's own order outside of the limited order of each world. It is the order of the silver sea that fire dew flows from the shallow worlds to the deep world. This fire dew influences the entire sea such that order exerts more power the deeper it is.

Not only is you're interpretation against the site standards, you're also contradicting what has been established multiple times in the series by saying the silver sea order doesn't affect the silver sea. Can you pause for a moment and process how dumb that is? Something that governs fundamental existence of life, concepts, laws, fate, history, information doesn't affect what it governs in anyway?

 

[Just_a_Random_Butler]

Wow, I mean, what can I say? I can't believe that I just read all of that.

So, originally, there was a back-and-forth argument regarding burden, which spanned for like almost 2 pages, and I personally thought at the time that what Everything12 and Planck69 said made sense to me, then Dereck dumped proof of repeated argument, then this and that, and after that, it just became harder for me to go on, but eventually I got to the end.

I am just basing this on what was said in this thread, but after all that reading, my thoughts are aligned with what DarkDragonMedeus said.

Yeah, I am mentally exhausted from all that. Just to be extra safe, maybe you guys should wait for the other staff members, preferably the Thread Moderators, as their input holds more precedence here.

 

[Tarang123]

Wow, I mean, what can I say? I can't believe that I just read all of that.

For some reason, I kinda want to go back to the beginning and read the whole thread over, just to know what it'll feel like

 

[MaxLevel_King]

No it doesn't. The silver sea itself dictates that the deeper the world is the stronger they are.

Type 1 concepts are concepts that are independent of what they govern. Changing these concepts will also change every object in the reality they govern.

Order=laws & concepts. The silver sea possesses it's own order outside of the limited order of each world. It is the order of the silver sea that fire dew flows from the shallow worlds to the deep world. This fire dew influences the entire sea such that order exerts more power the deeper it is.

Not only is you're interpretation against the site standards, you're also contradicting what has been established multiple times in the series by saying the silver sea order doesn't affect the silver sea. Can you pause for a moment and process how dumb that is? Something that governs fundamental existence of life, concepts, laws, fate, history, information doesn't affect what it governs in anyway?

I didn't say that the Order of the Silver Sea doesn't affect the Silver Sea. I said that the Order of the Silver Sea doesn't affect the structure/cosmology of the Silver Sea itself(ie, there's no proof that the Silver Sea structure itself would be destroyed). There's a difference. You're equating Worlds in the Silver Sea being dependent on Order in order to survive (as has been stated and demonstrated) to the Silver Sea itself being dependent on Order in order to survive (which hasn't been stated or demonstrated, ie headcanon).

Regardless, this is just going to end up going back-and-forth.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

It seems right now that the biggest argument against my thread is the one made by Dereck03. If so, I will post his argument down here and then post my response so the two can be compared. If even then Dereck03's reasoning trumps mine, then so be it.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Wow, I mean, what can I say? I can't believe that I just read all of that.

So, originally, there was a back-and-forth argument regarding burden, which spanned for like almost 2 pages, and I personally thought at the time that what Everything12 and Planck69 said made sense to me, then Dereck dumped proof of repeated argument, then this and that, and after that, it just became harder for me to go on, but eventually I got to the end.

I am just basing this on what was said in this thread, but after all that reading, my thoughts are aligned with what DarkDragonMedeus said.

Yeah, I am mentally exhausted from all that. Just to be extra safe, maybe you guys should wait for the other staff members, preferably the Thread Moderators, as their input holds more precedence here.

Now currently 3 staff disgreed with the thread including you.

Also from our side we wants a discussion rule regarding Anos and Venozdonor AP because of constant Downgrade attempts with same Arguments. It's really irritating at this point.
Even Dereck suggested that.

I have completely rejected this thread before, OP keep going in circles with the same arguments from 2 years ago, with 0 scans, 0 proof, claiming the same thing that has been debunked previously, we've already dealed with all of this here

The only thing that might be passable here would be to reform Venuzdonoa's AP to avoid further confusion and perhaps create a rule to prevent all this from being discussed again.

Edit. Just check all the specific points of the 3 threads I mentioned especially look only at the OP of this thread, in which it is practically copy-paste with nothing new from this new thread. And medeus already agreed with me therefor disagree with the thread.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

Anos' magic as well as his power are not limited to the bubbles but to the silver sea, it is easily shown when the incident of the vortex that was catalogued as a threat to the silver sea, and let's not forget that Venuzdonoa still has the power of Anos' Eyes and not only the order of destruction and the power of Anos' Eyes even in the silver sea Anos is afraid to use it because of its destructive power compressed into a bottomless abyss.

Where's the needed of end the series? The same thing happened with Venuzdonoa destroying Nousgalia, if order is destroyed then everything will be, that's why Anos had to revive Nousgalia, destroying the silver sea would be = end of the series, Anos doesn't want that. And already the mere fact of destroying the order is to affect the order that flows throughout the silver sea mainly the main orders of the silver sea. And we already know that if the order is destroyed = end of everything.

The fact comes from their nature as lions of destruction my friend, what would be the meaning of parrigton as a lion of destruction claim such a thing? Even he went out of his way to destroy Anos because he knew his claim was true but Anos was more than he could handle and he was destroyed. And as I said before, the claims come from users who have the power to manipulate and determine fate, so you are downplaying their ability.

Lions of destruction when their power is awakened will be enough to destroy the silver sea, especially Anos who has not even shown his full power yet, MeoCD being able to destroy a threat categorized as a threat to even silver with only a fraction of its power and Venuz having the power of Anos and MeoCD and continuing to destroy everything it has faced no matter how tough, eternal or infinite it is.

And again this is one of the most important things that OP can't even debunk


Also

All the silver sea is made of order, the order follows logic/reason, Anos, Venuz, MEoCD can destroy both order and reason, the order of the silver sea is not exempt of the reason, therefore it can be destroyed as well as all the orders that were destroyed and restored. The main point is that there is no need to destroy the silver sea going by the current plot of the series, but there is already a hint that it can be destroyed and there are current threats that can affect it.

That's not even remotely true. In my initial posting, the first 3 points I've brought up were the ones that were "debunked". However, my main argument was the 4th point, and if the 4th point was true, then the first 3 points that were "debunked" immediately become relevant because they provide context. Then, people started to shift the arguments for Venuzdonoa in this thread, so I shifted my arguments as well. This isn't a case of "this has already been debunked before" as you claim. On top of that, you aren't the only three people in this thread. There are a few people who agree, and a few people who lean towards neutral as well. There is no reason for this thread to be unilaterally closed because you claim that everything has been debunked.

(Revised)

Summary of the current arguments in this thread;

Arguments for Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea:

1. Venuzdonoa was stated to be capable of destroying all of existence

2. Venuzdonoa has no anti-feats to that statement

3. Venuzdonoa scales to Anos and it was stated that as a Lion of Destruction, he is "fated to destroy the Silver Sea"

4. Anos destroyed Elmide who controlled the Vortex which was called the Great Calamity of the Silver Sea. (Revised) The Vortex is in the Abyssal World at the bottom of the Silver Sea's 99 Layers, so given how the superiority of Worlds are determined by their depth, Venuzdonoa scales to the Silver Sea because Venuzdonoa scales to Anos and Anos destroyed said Vortex.

(Revised) 5. Characters in the Silver Sea have reversed the flow of Order (that Fire Dew flows from Shallow to Deep) in the Silver Sea. Therefore, if characters that Venuzdonoa scales above can affect the entire Silver Sea, then of course Venuzdonoa can as well

(My) Arguments against Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea:

1. Anos didn't know about the existence of Bubbles or the Silver Sea when he made that statement. What he was referring to as "all of existence" was the World (Militia World) and everything in it.

2. People claim that Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds prove that there are no anti-feats to the statement. However, Deeper Worlds are still "all of existence" as Anos referred to, just like the Militia World is. Worlds (All of existence as was referred to by Anos at the time of the statement as he lacked knowledge of the Silver Sea) can't even survive in the environment of the Silver Sea without being surrounded by a Bubble, as the Silver Sea constantly drains magic power from everything it touches. The Silver Sea and the Worlds in the Silver Sea are not the same thing. Claiming that the statement about Venuzdonoa being capable of destroying "All of existence" also applies to the Silver Sea itself would be equating the Worlds in the Silver Sea to the actual Silver Sea, and they very clearly aren't the same thing. On top of that, Venuzdonoa has no feats even remotely comparable to that.

3. The narrative itself never stated that Anos was fated to destroy the Silver Sea. Parrington, a near-perfect Lion of Destruction did. Parrington's knowledge of the Lions of Destruction stems from the conceptual Lion of Destruction that all other Lions of Destruction (including Anos) are incarnations of. The conceptual Lion of Destruction has no feats of even affecting the Silver Sea itself. In fact, it is completely featless. Moreover, "fated to destroy the Silver Sea" can have different interpretations. It doesn't neccessarily mean that Anos could destroy the entire Silver Sea at once. The only way to determine which interpretation is most likely to be correct is by going off of previous feats in the series. And no feats in the series even remotely support that interpretation. Remember, Parrington himself is a near-perfect Lion of Destruction, and in Anos' fight with him, they only affected a single Deep World. Said Deep World wasn't even destroyed, and you have to remember that there are countless Worlds in each layer, and 99+ layers. No feats or statements in the series support or prove the interpretation of Parrington's statement that Anos can literally destroy the entire Silver Sea at once.

4. The Vortex being called the "Great Calamity of the Silver Sea" doesn't mean that it was a threat to the structure of the Silver Sea itself. All that was stated of it was that it damaged many small worlds. Nowhere was it stated that it affected the Silver Sea itself. You can even confirm this by checking the scans that Eldemade posted in an above comment. On top of that, while damaging many small worlds is an impressive feat, it isn't remotely comparable to the entire cosmology of the Silver Sea. (Revised) The Vortex that Anos destroyed isn't the Vortex in the Abyssal World of the Silver Sea. What Anos destroyed was the Vortex in the Abyss of Craving of the Calamity Abyss World. Despite their names sounding similar, the Calamity Abyss World is not the Abyssal World that lies at the bottom of the Silver Sea's 99 Layers. On top of that, in the story it is stated that only the Great Demon King Zinnia Shivaheld has reached the Abyss of the Silver Sea. In the scans I've provided up above, it states that only Issac (Yzak) has reached the Abyss. These two statements "contradict" because they aren't referring to the same Abyss. I would also like to add that the Abyssal World is always referred to as such. Never also as "the Abyss World" or something else. You can reference the scans I posted above (which make a distinction between the Abyssal World and the Calamity Abyss World) as well as the MGnF cosmology page on the wiki (which only refers to the Abyssal World as the Abyssal World). The wiki scan is from chapter 584.

(Revised) 5. Characters reversing the flow of Order in the Silver Sea isn't equivalent to affecting the cosmology/structure of the Silver Sea itself (ie the Silver Sea isn't dependent on Order). Claiming that it does would be making an equivalence between the Worlds in the Silver Sea to the Silver Sea itself. While it's stated that Worlds in the Silver Sea are dependent on their Order in order to survive, that is not stated of the Silver Sea itself, and once again, the Worlds in the Silver Sea are not the same as the Silver Sea itself. On top of that, Anos disturbing the Order of Destruction in his World by turning it into Venuzdonoa which allowed for resurrection and reincarnation to become easier didn't affect the rest of the Silver Sea. We know this because no one else in the Silver Sea even treated reincarnation as a viable concept. What we do know is that Order exists in Worlds, and that Order exists in the Silver Sea as well. It has been stated and demonstrated that Worlds are dependent on Order in order to function and survive. This has not been stated of the Silver Sea. Assuming that the Silver Sea is dependent on Order just the same as the Worlds in the Silver Sea are is merely false equivalency. Even the Order of the Silver Sea (Fire Dew flows from Shallow to Deep) being reversed simply affects whether deep magic is capable of being used in Shallow Worlds, or if shallow magic can be deepened in order to be used in Deep Worlds. In other words, it only affects the power of magic in Worlds depending on the depth of said Worlds, not the Layers themselves or the Silver Sea as a whole. There is no concrete or implied proof of such either.

Keep in mind, this is just a summary of the points made. The thread itself provides more context to these arguments, both for and against.

This includes Dereck's argument, and my responses to them

 

[Tatsumi504]

I didn't say that the Order of the Silver Sea doesn't affect the Silver Sea. I said that the Order of the Silver Sea doesn't affect the structure/cosmology of the Silver Sea itself(ie, there's no proof that the Silver Sea structure itself would be destroyed).

Who tf here is equating hax to AP? Bruh what? Changing a concept obviously affects what it governs. Venuzdonoa AP comes from hax. If it can affect the order of the sea, it can destroy the sea.

There's a difference. You're equating Worlds in the Silver Sea being dependent on Order in order to survive (as has been stated and demonstrated) to the Silver Sea itself being dependent on Order in order to survive (which hasn't been stated or demonstrated, ie headcanon).

Worlds are not dependent on order, order is what gives birth to worlds. You're saying it like They're in a symbiotic relationship with each other.
Order is the world, the world is not order.
It's not that the world needs Order to survive, it's that nothing can exist without order. Until you can understand this basic relationship, nothing you say makes sense.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

Who tf here is equating hax to AP? Bruh what? Changing a concept obviously affects what it governs. Venuzdonoa AP comes from hax. If it can affect the order of the sea, it can destroy the sea.

Worlds are not dependent on order, order is what gives birth to worlds. You're saying it like They're in a symbiotic relationship with each other.
Order is the world, the world is not order.
It's not that the world needs Order to survive, it's that nothing can exist without order. Until you can understand this basic relationship, nothing you say makes sense.

"Worlds are not dependent on Order. . ."

Then tell me why Nousgalia being destroyed would lead to the destruction of the World, if the World didn't depend on his Order in order to survive.

 

[Tatsumi504]

"Worlds are not dependent on Order. . ."

Then tell me why Nousgalia being destroyed would lead to the destruction of the World, if the World didn't depend on his Order in order to survive.

There's a difference between "Worlds are dependent on Order" and "Nothing can exist without Order".
The former denotes a symbiotic relationship wherein one benefits from the other while the latter denotes that One is the fundamental essence that gives birth to the existence of the other.
Basically, is the world dependent on Order? Yes but saying it that way is wrong.
Order is the world, the world isn't Order. The world moves according to Order. Order is providence, it is unchangeable, it is fate itself, the very laws and concepts that make up not support the world.

Nousgalia being destroyed doesn't destroy the world. Nousgalia is the Heavenly Father God that maintains the Order of Order. Destroying Nousgalia disrupts the Order of Order. If the Order of Order is disrupted every other Order becomes disrupted as well making the world not to function and thus destroying it.
Death of a God≠ Destruction of Order.
Destruction of any Order be it the most mundane one= Destruction of the World

 

[MaxLevel_King]

There's a difference between "Worlds are dependent on Order" and "Nothing can exist without Order".
The former denotes a symbiotic relationship wherein one benefits from the other while the latter denotes that One is the fundamental essence that gives birth to the existence of the other.
Basically, is the world dependent on Order? Yes but saying it that way is wrong.
Order is the world, the world isn't Order. The world moves according to Order. Order is providence, it is unchangeable, it is fate itself, the very laws and concepts that make up not support the world.

Nousgalia being destroyed doesn't destroy the world. Nousgalia is the Heavenly Father God that maintains the Order of Order. Destroying Nousgalia disrupts the Order of Order. If the Order of Order is disrupted every other Order becomes disrupted as well making the world not to function and thus destroying it.
Death of a God≠ Destruction of Order.
Destruction of any Order be it the most mundane one= Destruction of the World

This isn't helping the case you're trying to make against me. You've just stated that the Destruction of the World via disrupting Order simply means that it can't function, not that the World is literally destroyed. And what I'm arguing is that affecting the Order of the Silver Sea doesn't equal destruction of the structure/cosmology of the Silver Sea itself. On top of that, the only Order that the Silver Sea is said to have is that Fire Dew flows from Shallow to Deep (assuming that the Silver Sea itself has other Orders is pure headcanon, and you would have to prove as such). Affecting or disrupting said Order wouldn't even harm the Silver Sea itself, it would simply disrupt the function of how powerful a World's magic is depending on how Deep or Shallow it is.

". . .not support the world".

Wrong. If a World depends on Order not being disturbed in order to maintain it's existence and continue to function properly, then Order is obviously supporting said World's existence.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Yeah whatever, now it's just time to wait for staff evaluation, so you are not going to see me re-arguing again, on the contrary you can keep re-writing everything every time someone disagrees so you don't take the votes as against.

Since you and another staff member disagreed. Am curious if similar arguments like this one have happened before. If so we could make a discussion rule, if not that’s fine

 

[Tatsumi504]

You've just stated that the Destruction of the World via disrupting Order simply means that it can't function, not that the World is literally destroyed.

Destroying Nousgalia disrupts the Order of Order. If the Order of Order is disrupted every other Order becomes disrupted as well making the world not to function and thus destroying it.
Death of a God≠ Destruction of Order.
Destruction of any Order be it the most mundane one= Destruction of the World

Are you blind? You basically keep confirming that you're knowledge on the series is poor if you don't know that destroying any Order will destroy the world.

Death of a god= Disruption of Order.
Order of Order governs every other Order.
Disrupting Order of Order= Disrupting every Order= World Destruction.
Destroying/Removing any Order from the World= Destruction of the world.

Stop making us go back to CRT's that have been accepted years ago. This is basic stuff already.

And what I'm arguing is that affecting the Order of the Silver Sea doesn't equal destruction of the structure/cosmology of the Silver Sea itself.

Obviously. Affecting Order of the Silver Sea≠ Destroying the Silver Sea. It is= Affecting the Silver Sea.
Destroying the Order of the Silver Sea= Destroying the Silver Sea.

On top of that, the only Order that the Silver Sea is said to have is that Fire Dew flows from Shallow to Deep (assuming that the Silver Sea itself has other Orders is pure headcanon, and you would have to prove as such).

Oh my god‍♂. How does the Order of the silver sea gives birth to worlds, creates the Order of creation inside the bubbles without an Order of Creation?

Web Novel Chapter 484.
"If I remember correctly, what Anos-sama was talking about was that the old world should have been in order to slowly go to destruction. ……do you mean?"

Eldemade nodded greatly.

"Great. Isn't it correct?"

The recreated world does not head for destruction, and life continues to reincarnate.

In the realm of the gods, fire dew will no longer be stolen.

"I mean, if it was anyway, it would have been better if there was no destruction."

said one of the students.

"Certainly, that's right. It would be great if we became immortal like the gods, wouldn't it? It seems like we can have peace without thinking about difficult things."

"Kakakaka, you guys. Isn't that a good question!"

Pleasantly Eldmade lifts his lips and points with a cane at the students who spoke.

"Now then, it makes sense to say that destruction should be abolished. If there is no end to life, most problems will be managed somehow. If no one dies in a fight, then even the great war 2,000 years ago is just a game. But!"

The King of Death makes a big leap and stamps his feet.

When he quickly raised both hands, the blackboard was illuminated, and the word "impossible" was drawn in large letters.

"I couldn't do it! Right, Creator God?"

Misha nods.

"It is impossible to create an immortal world with the authority of the Creator God."

"Come on. Did you hear that, Omae? From now on, we're going to take a test. Even with the authority of the Creator God who created this world, we can't freely change this world. Even though Eques "Gear of Fate" <Vertexfemblem> was gone."

Eldmade speaks as eloquently as possible.

"Why? Why can't the Creator God freely create the world She wants?"

The king of death turns his gaze to the students.

They were all thinking about the reason with a serious expression.

"What do you think? Legendary hero."

Yale Domed pointed to Ray.

Only a few people, such as me, Eldmade, and Shin, know about this yet.

He must have heard it for the first time in this class.

"Does that mean that even the creator gods are bound by the order of the world they created? As long as the world already exists, they will be affected by that order, and they will not be able to deviate greatly from it."

"Correct. But here comes another pleasant question."

Kakaka, laughing, Eldmade pointed at Sasha.

"Which was born first, the world or Militia, the creator god?"



"The world. The world existed before Militia was born, and the previous creator god Elenesia was already there. When the old world reaches its limit, the creator god will perish. At that time, the root that approached destruction was the last creation. Go ahead and create the next Creator God."

It's about their birth.

Sasha answered smoothly.

"Then let's go back in time to the beginning. How did the original creator come about?"

Sasha is stuck in her reply.

Militia's mother, the previous creator god Elenesia, said as Sasha answered earlier.

However, there is no way to know how the very first god--the primordial creator god was born.

"... I don't know... I can't be sure..."

"Kaka-ka-ka, sure, sure. It's hard to find out. So what hypothesis can you make? Did God come first, or did the world come first?"

Sasha puts her hand on her head and opens her mouth.

"If anything, I think it's a god..."

"Why?"

"Because, even if the world was born first, if there is no order, the world will collapse. I don't think it will last until God is born by chance."

Without order, the world would perish.

It is self-evident that a world without God will not last long.

"Then let's assume that the gods were born first. Was the creator alone born, or were the other gods born with them?"

Eldmade refers to Misa.

"... Um, I think it's only the creator god. No matter how many different gods are born at the same time, I feel that it doesn't happen easily even if it's a coincidence..."

"Kakaka, good answer. Then, the last conundrum, how was the creator god born?"

Eldmade pointed at Naya with a cane.

"What do you think, detention?"

"... uh, what do you think? Were you born with a Poco?"

A moment of silence.

A burst of voices burst out from the classroom.

Everyone laughed at the unexpected and unusual answer, and among them, Eldmade was the loudest.

"Kaka-ka-ka-ka-ka-ka-ka-ka-ka-ka-ka-ka-ka-kakka-ka-ka-ka-ka-ka-kakka! Was it born with a pop, the creator god? Pop, no, no, detention, what kind of sound is that?"

"Wha, what kind of sound is that? I think it's some kind of sound... when it's born..."

"Na-ru-ho-do"

I heard the laughter of the students.

"... I-I'm sorry..."

"No, no, isn't that correct?"

"e?"

Naya stared blankly at the death king.

Grinning, he laughed.

"I don't know if there was a sound, but I'm sure there was something. If there's nothing, nothing will happen. In other words, there must have been something from the beginning for the birth of the Creator God."



Eldmade holds a cane and puts weight on both hands.

"What do you need to make a popping sound in a world with nothing, detention?"

"... sound order... is it? Like a gospel god?"

"Yes, yes, order! At the very least, something similar to that existed from the beginning before this world was created. Otherwise, it's hard to imagine that a Creator God would be born. Don't let that happen."

Shaking his head left and right, Eldmade smiles in a pleasant and irresistible way.

Then, facing forward, he said,

"If order already existed before this world was created, then isn't there something else that exists?"

Naya is taken aback.

The classroom begins to get noisy.

In contrast to the harmonious atmosphere up until now, a sense of tension filled the place.

"... Are there any gods...? Other than this world...?"

Naya asks.

Eldmade laughed as if it was the correct answer.

"In the first place, who planted that gear in the gods of this world? Coincidence? No, no, I think it's already a miracle. Then who caused it? Eques said he consumed the dew he took away. Certainly, the fire dew has completely disappeared from the sky of the gods and from the ground.However, it makes sense to think that it has moved instead of disappeared.What is the intention? So? Who plotted that?"

Eldmade sends magical power with a cane to the blackboard.

"So the conclusion is this."

A large circle is drawn on the blackboard, and the world of Militia is written there.

Then another circle was drawn next to it.

At the center"? ’ and the King of Death hits it with a cane.

"Isn't there another world outside this world?"

Headcanon? What is this? The same Order that exists in the bubbles, exists in the silver sea. The creator god that creates order inside the bubble cannot create what isn't part of the order that created it.

Werey. Dey play, just dey play. Man wey no understand how fundamental laws for story dey work wan come drag book with me.

Your case don tire me abeg.

Go read the story from chapter 1 again.

Affecting or disrupting said Order wouldn't even harm the Silver Sea itself, it would simply disrupt the function of how powerful a World's magic is depending on how Deep or Shallow it is.

Wow, affecting something ≠ equal yo affecting something.
Alright boys. Goku affecting the macrocosm with his punches in his clash against beerus≠ affecting the macrocosm. @Ottavio_Merluzzo @Vietthai96 y'all are the only DB supporters i know so could you downgrade it for me?

Wrong. If a World depends on Order not being disturbed in order to maintain it's existence and continue to function properly, then Order is obviously supporting said World's existence

Bruh. Disrupting Order does not destroy the world. Disrupting the Order of Order disrupts all Order which causes the world to collapse. If too many Orders are disrupted the world is destroyed.

A disrupted Order is still there just not functioning properly/ at full capacity.

A world doesn't depend on order. A world is made up of order. There is no symbiotic relationship between them. It is the relationship a type 1 concept has with the reality it governs.

Biko si n'ihu M puo. Onye nzuzu