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Venuzdonoa Downgrade (Improved Argument)

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Dereck03 said:
And you should stop clogging the thread with lots of replies when you normally could answer all of them in 1 just answer.
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I have. In the revised summary comment that's already been reposted. It's not on me that the counter-points I've made in said comment have outright been ignored. However, since you've brought this up, I may as well repost it again.
 
MaxLevel_King said:
(Revised)

Summary of the current arguments in this thread;

Arguments for Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea:

1. Venuzdonoa was stated to be capable of destroying all of existence

2. Venuzdonoa has no anti-feats to that statement

3. Venuzdonoa scales to Anos and it was stated that as a Lion of Destruction, he is "fated to destroy the Silver Sea"

4. Anos destroyed Elmide who controlled the Vortex which was called the Great Calamity of the Silver Sea. (Revised) The Vortex is in the Abyssal World at the bottom of the Silver Sea's 99 Layers, so given how the superiority of Worlds are determined by their depth, Venuzdonoa scales to the Silver Sea because Venuzdonoa scales to Anos and Anos destroyed said Vortex.

(Revised) 5. Characters in the Silver Sea have reversed the flow of Order (that Fire Dew flows from Shallow to Deep) in the Silver Sea. Therefore, if characters that Venuzdonoa scales above can affect the entire Silver Sea, then of course Venuzdonoa can as well

(My) Arguments against Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea:

1. Anos didn't know about the existence of Bubbles or the Silver Sea when he made that statement. What he was referring to as "all of existence" was the World (Militia World) and everything in it.

2. People claim that Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds prove that there are no anti-feats to the statement. However, Deeper Worlds are still "all of existence" as Anos referred to, just like the Militia World is. Worlds (All of existence as was referred to by Anos at the time of the statement as he lacked knowledge of the Silver Sea) can't even survive in the environment of the Silver Sea without being surrounded by a Bubble, as the Silver Sea constantly drains magic power from everything it touches. The Silver Sea and the Worlds in the Silver Sea are not the same thing. Claiming that the statement about Venuzdonoa being capable of destroying "All of existence" also applies to the Silver Sea itself would be equating the Worlds in the Silver Sea to the actual Silver Sea, and they very clearly aren't the same thing. On top of that, Venuzdonoa has no feats even remotely comparable to that.

3. The narrative itself never stated that Anos was fated to destroy the Silver Sea. Parrington, a near-perfect Lion of Destruction did. Parrington's knowledge of the Lions of Destruction stems from the conceptual Lion of Destruction that all other Lions of Destruction (including Anos) are incarnations of. The conceptual Lion of Destruction has no feats of even affecting the Silver Sea itself. In fact, it is completely featless. Moreover, "fated to destroy the Silver Sea" can have different interpretations. It doesn't neccessarily mean that Anos could destroy the entire Silver Sea at once. The only way to determine which interpretation is most likely to be correct is by going off of previous feats in the series. And no feats in the series even remotely support that interpretation. Remember, Parrington himself is a near-perfect Lion of Destruction, and in Anos' fight with him, they only affected a single Deep World. Said Deep World wasn't even destroyed, and you have to remember that there are countless Worlds in each layer, and 99+ layers. No feats or statements in the series support or prove the interpretation of Parrington's statement that Anos can literally destroy the entire Silver Sea at once.

4. The Vortex being called the "Great Calamity of the Silver Sea" doesn't mean that it was a threat to the structure of the Silver Sea itself. All that was stated of it was that it damaged many small worlds. Nowhere was it stated that it affected the Silver Sea itself. You can even confirm this by checking the scans that Eldemade posted in an above comment. On top of that, while damaging many small worlds is an impressive feat, it isn't remotely comparable to the entire cosmology of the Silver Sea. (Revised) The Vortex that Anos destroyed isn't the Vortex in the Abyssal World of the Silver Sea. What Anos destroyed was the Vortex in the Abyss of Craving of the Calamity Abyss World. Despite their names sounding similar, the Calamity Abyss World is not the Abyssal World that lies at the bottom of the Silver Sea's 99 Layers. On top of that, in the story it is stated that only the Great Demon King Zinnia Shivaheld has reached the Abyss of the Silver Sea. In the scans I've provided up above, it states that only Issac (Yzak) has reached the Abyss. These two statements "contradict" because they aren't referring to the same Abyss. I would also like to add that the Abyssal World is always referred to as such. Never also as "the Abyss World" or something else. You can reference the scans I posted above (which make a distinction between the Abyssal World and the Calamity Abyss World) as well as the MGnF cosmology page on the wiki (which only refers to the Abyssal World as the Abyssal World). The wiki scan is from chapter 584.

(Revised) 5. Characters reversing the flow of Order in the Silver Sea isn't equivalent to affecting the cosmology/structure of the Silver Sea itself (ie the Silver Sea isn't dependent on Order). Claiming that it does would be making an equivalence between the Worlds in the Silver Sea to the Silver Sea itself. While it's stated that Worlds in the Silver Sea are dependent on their Order in order to survive, that is not stated of the Silver Sea itself, and once again, the Worlds in the Silver Sea are not the same as the Silver Sea itself. On top of that, Anos disturbing the Order of Destruction in his World by turning it into Venuzdonoa which allowed for resurrection and reincarnation to become easier didn't affect the rest of the Silver Sea. We know this because no one else in the Silver Sea even treated reincarnation as a viable concept. What we do know is that Order exists in Worlds, and that Order exists in the Silver Sea as well. It has been stated and demonstrated that Worlds are dependent on Order in order to function and survive. This has not been stated of the Silver Sea. Assuming that the Silver Sea is dependent on Order just the same as the Worlds in the Silver Sea are is merely false equivalency. Even the Order of the Silver Sea (Fire Dew flows from Shallow to Deep) being reversed simply affects whether deep magic is capable of being used in Shallow Worlds, or if shallow magic can be deepened in order to be used in Deep Worlds. In other words, it only affects the power of magic in Worlds depending on the depth of said Worlds, not the Layers themselves or the Silver Sea as a whole. There is no concrete or implied proof of such either.

Keep in mind, this is just a summary of the points made. The thread itself provides more context to these arguments, both for and against.
Click to expand...
^
Summary of most arguments for Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea, as well as my counter-arguments.

(Don't bother trying to debunk me without actually reading through my counter-arguments and addressing them)
 
It's not rude at all, and I already have contacted few of them and 2 of them already disagreed with the thread and tbh, almost no staff would care about this thread... I can think of pinging @Elizhaa

And I don't like to tag staff either.
 
MaxLevel_King said:
Anos made that "All of existence" statement conciously. Him subconciously knowing some things at the time doesn't change the meaning of his concious statement.
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Anos made the "anything in existence" comment which included knowledge of Venuzdonoa's magic which is something that contains deeper laws and concepts of the silver sea. It is clearly not limited to "inside the world" as the knowledge used to make Venuzdonoa comes from things that are "outside existence" as you call it.
MaxLevel_King said:
No. We know that the Order of a World is more powerful the deeper the World is. We also know that affecting Order in one World has no effect on the rest of the Silver Sea (because Anos disturbing the Order of Destruction in his World didn't affect the rest of the Silver Sea). On top of that, while the Order in a World is more powerful depending on how deep the World is, that says nothing of the Silver Sea itself, which is vastly superior to every single World within it. Overall, this isn't a strong point to make.
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Unfortunately, this has nothing to do with the point i was making. This debunk was referencing your standpoint that "it is headcanon to assume that Order besides 'power flows from shallow to deep' exists in the silver sea". I proceeded to prove that the same Order in the bubbles is the same Order in the Sea as a Creator god cannot create Order that deviates from the one that gave birth to it which is the Order of the silver sea.

Your standpoint in regards to this is "all of existence" only refers to the world inside the bubble, this would naturally include Order. The Order in the bubble is the same Order of the silver sea albeit with a weaker influence but Venuzdonoa does not care about a power difference. It destroys the "Reason/Logic" behind anything to destroy what is classified as "Anos enemy". This is evident in the fact that despite the huge difference in magic power between Kostoria and Sasha, Sasha's Venuzdonoa still operated on the same level as kostoria's and despite kostoria's merely being a copy, it was on the same level as the real thing. "The logic of a power difference, being inferior cause it's a copy" is meaningless before the ability to destroy logic
MaxLevel_King said:
How could that matter when Venuzdonoa had no reference beyond the World to begin with? As far as he knew at the time, regardless applied. Read points #1 and #2 of my summary for further clarification.
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It matters because the very fundamental in Venuzdonoa's magic formula is something deeper than the scope of the world to begin with. "As far as he knew" is irrelevant as Venuzdonoa is already an existence beyond what he knew and he makes the statement it destroys anything regardless of its logic, how sturdy, eternal or infinite it is. This is even more evident where it destroyed graham who like anos is outside the order, reason & logic of the silver sea entirely. Even the logic of "I am beyond/outside/unbound from logic thus i cannot be affected by affecting logic" is useless before Venuzdonoa. Even the very logic behind this CRT is useless before it.
This isn't to say Venuzdonoa is omnipotent as most people including you have tried to use to debunk it as even factoring in Venuzdonoa Anos has said he isn't omnipotent but the one thing he remains unrivaled in, is absolute is his power to destroy.
MaxLevel_King said:
Really? When has another characters in the series affected something beyond a Deep World?
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The retrograde formula is a magic to reverse the flow of Order in the entire Silver Sea to temporarily bring Concepts and Laws that don't exist in shallow layers from deeper layers which allows deep magic to function in places where the laws and concepts for it don't exist.
Inferior characters are already capable of affecting the sea not to talk of Venuzdonoa that's superior to them and can destroy rather than merely affect

Edit: I'm sorry. I didn't read @Dereck03 warning not to comment further before replying to this.
 
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Tatsumi504 said:
Anos made the "anything in existence" comment which included knowledge of Venuzdonoa's magic which is something that contains deeper laws and concepts of the silver sea. It is clearly not limited to "inside the world" as the knowledge used to make Venuzdonoa comes from things that are "outside existence" as you call it.

Unfortunately, this has nothing to do with the point i was making. This debunk was referencing your standpoint that "it is headcanon to assume that Order besides 'power flows from shallow to deep' exists in the silver sea". I proceeded to prove that the same Order in the bubbles is the same Order in the Sea as a Creator god cannot create Order that deviates from the one that gave birth to it which is the Order of the silver sea.

Your standpoint in regards to this is "all of existence" only refers to the world inside the bubble, this would naturally include Order. The Order in the bubble is the same Order of the silver sea albeit with a weaker influence but Venuzdonoa does not care about a power difference. It destroys the "Reason/Logic" behind anything to destroy what is classified as "Anos enemy". This is evident in the fact that despite the huge difference in magic power between Kostoria and Sasha, Sasha's Venuzdonoa still operated on the same level as kostoria's and despite kostoria's merely being a copy, it was on the same level as the real thing. "The logic of a power difference, being inferior cause it's a copy" is meaningless before the ability to destroy logic

It matters because the very fundamental in Venuzdonoa's magic formula is something deeper than the scope of the world to begin with. "As far as he knew" is irrelevant as Venuzdonoa is already an existence beyond what he knew and he makes the statement it destroys anything regardless of its logic, how sturdy, eternal or infinite it is. This is even more evident where it destroyed graham who like anos is outside the order, reason & logic of the silver sea entirely. Even the logic of "I am beyond/outside/unbound from logic thus i cannot be affected by affecting logic" is useless before Venuzdonoa. Even the very logic behind this CRT is useless before it.
This isn't to say Venuzdonoa is omnipotent as most people including you have tried to use to debunk it as even factoring in Venuzdonoa Anos has said he isn't omnipotent but the one thing he remains unrivaled in, is absolute is his power to destroy.

The retrograde formula is a magic to reverse the flow of Order in the entire Silver Sea to temporarily bring Concepts and Laws that don't exist in shallow layers from deeper layers which allows deep magic to function in places where the laws and concepts for it don't exist.
Inferior characters are already capable of affecting the sea not to talk of Venuzdonoa that's superior to them and can destroy rather than merely affect

Edit: I'm sorry. I didn't read @Dereck03 warning not to comment further before replying to this.
Click to expand...
1. Deeper laws and concepts. . . that come from Deeper Worlds (all of existence as Anos referred to-- a World). Deeper Worlds ("all of existence") isn't equivalent to the Silver Sea itself.

2. You did prove that Order aside from Fire Dew flows from Shallow to Deep exists in the Silver Sea. I concede on that front.

3. It's ability to destroy logic doesn't prove that it's capable of destroying the Silver Sea.

4. You're equating temporarily affecting the Order of the Silver Sea to affecting the structure/cosmology of the Silver Sea itself (as in the physical construct). Just because Worlds in the Silver Sea will be destroyed if their Order is doesn't mean that also applies to the Silver Sea, as Worlds in the Silver Sea do not equal the Silver Sea itself.
 
Since I haven't actually brought this up yet; If this CRT gets accepted, I propose that Venuzdonoa's tier changes from "Low 1-C" to "2-A, Possibly Low 1-C" as I feel that there isn't solid evidence for Venuzdonoa deserving Low 1-C.

That's all I have to say.
 
Since when do you decide that? Since everyone agrees with me you change the final decision? nah, that's not how we do things here, my points are accepted and yours are not, so nothing will happen, I will only reform venuz AP.

And you know what? Even if this were accepted, the bubbles are still 5-D so it would be solid 5-D (Low 1-C) no matter what.
 
thats-a-mystery-no-idea.gif
 
I have a theory and I think it makes a lot of sense.Firstly, all we know is that Elenesia is a resident of the deep world and that she stated that Sasha (Goddess of Destruction) is stronger than the other gods of destruction, only we can't forget that even Eremita Elmide was suffering from Venuzdonoa and sword of two laws (if I remember correctly Anos uses both swords against him), with Eremita Elmide being an inhabitant of layer 99 (the highest layer currently in the Silver Sea). So what would be the explanation for Venuzdonoa being so strong to the point of destroying everything even in deep layers and probably even the Silver Sea itself if so Anos decides? The answer to that lies with the Demon King of Tyranny himself. As we know, he was the one who created Venuzdonoa with his own magic power and consequently, this must have raised the magic level of the goddess of destruction to the point of being comparable to his. who is already said to be the lion of destruction capable of destroying the Silver Sea.
 
Alright that because of Elenesia being a deep layer denizen that would also make Abernyu a deep layer denizen, but to the point of hurting Eremita Elmide who is a layer 99 denizen is kind of hard to believe. World of the Magic Bullet is far from layer 99.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
There seems to be way too much to go over, but for the time being. I am inclined to believe Dereck makes the most sense here.
Click to expand...
Dereck03 said:
Honestly, what is there to debunk here? Everything you claim has been used in the 3 previous threads and everything has been completely rejected, at least the other previous threads there was discussion with scans and proofs and still failed, the OP is nothing and you are just repeating the same and the same from almost 2 years ago without changing anything, the only thing that now there are more proofs and information that help our side and the most you can get is that the venuzdonoa AP can be reformulated. That is all.

@ImmortalDread , @EldemadeDityjon I suggest you stop debating and wait to see if Elizhaa or Crimson have anything to say. I honestly don't know how this has gotten this far using the same as the previous rejected threads.

@Antvasima all has been said here. Nothing more, just waiting for the staff you pinged b4.
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Just_a_Random_Butler said:
Wow, I mean, what can I say? I can't believe that I just read all of that.

So, originally, there was a back-and-forth argument regarding burden, which spanned for like almost 2 pages, and I personally thought at the time that what Everything12 and Planck69 said made sense to me, then Dereck dumped proof of repeated argument, then this and that, and after that, it just became harder for me to go on, but eventually I got to the end.

I am just basing this on what was said in this thread, but after all that reading, my thoughts are aligned with what DarkDragonMedeus said.

Yeah, I am mentally exhausted from all that. Just to be extra safe, maybe you guys should wait for the other staff members, preferably the Thread Moderators, as their input holds more precedence here.
Click to expand...
So should we close this thread then?
 
Antvasima said:
So should we close this thread then?
Click to expand...
We've got 3 staff disagreed with OP or 4 if we count jokes battle staff and basically overall disapproval from regular users and just 1 staff agreed with OP... So what do you think?

I was only waiting for elizhaa input.
 
Shouldn't Medeus and JaRB be placed under "Disagree" in the first post of this thread btw?
 
Dereck03 said:
We've got 3 staff disagreed with OP or 4 if we count jokes battle staff and basically overall disapproval from regular users and just 1 staff agreed with OP... So what do you think?

I was only waiting for elizhaa input.
Click to expand...
Can you or somebody else here explain this thread and the arguments within it in an easy to understand post please?
 
Antvasima said:
Can you or somebody else here explain this thread and the arguments within it in an easy to understand post please?
Click to expand...
I would not know how to sum it up, the only thing I can say is that from page 3 was that I started to debate and from there was where I got the approval of the staff and many regular users and as I said previously I was just waiting for Elizhaa's evaluation and only E12 agree with the OP and I prefer evaluation from staff who in some way or another have participated in previous CRT's of the verse as they will have more understanding in which i believe Elizhaa has a good amount of knowledge.
 
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Problemexe said:
Tl;DR:
The OP bought up the same arguments that was debunked with his headcanon multiple times before and the arguments are just going in a circle now with 3-4 Staff Disagreements and 1 Agreement with the OP.
Click to expand...
Not to mention that 16 regular users disagreed with the OP as well.
Robo said:
oh dear....the OP thought i was being serious when i said i agreed with the thread
Click to expand...
So you agreed or not?
 
Problemexe said:
Tl;DR:
The OP bought up the same arguments that was debunked with his headcanon multiple times before and the arguments are just going in a circle now with 3-4 Staff Disagreements and 1 Agreement with the OP.
Click to expand...
Well, it doesn't seem like this will be accepted then. However, a better summary explanation definitely wouldn't hurt.
 
Since everybody who disagrees with me has had the chance to give their opinion on this thread, I think it's only fair that I give mine. I'll keep it short; The first 3 points of my post are what were "debunked" in previous downgrade attempts. The 4th point is new however, and if the 4th point is true, then the first 3 points are relevant because they provide context. Then, the arguments for Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea shifted throughout the thread, so my counter-arguments did as well. Meaning that not only is the 4th point new, but I have other new arguments in this thread for debunking Venuzdonoa as well. Those who disagree with me would say that my arguments have been "debunked", but in truth, they haven't. There is straight up no solid evidence for Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea.

I'll post the summary of the main arguments and counter-arguments in this thread down below.

P.S: I'll change @Robo and the other staff that agreed with @Dereck03 to disagree. I listed them as neutral because all I heard was "I'm inclined to agree with @Dereck03 ". It's pretty obvious where they stand now however.
 
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MaxLevel_King said:
(Revised)

Summary of the current arguments in this thread;

Arguments for Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea:

1. Venuzdonoa was stated to be capable of destroying all of existence

2. Venuzdonoa has no anti-feats to that statement

3. Venuzdonoa scales to Anos and it was stated that as a Lion of Destruction, he is "fated to destroy the Silver Sea"

4. Anos destroyed Elmide who controlled the Vortex which was called the Great Calamity of the Silver Sea. (Revised) The Vortex is in the Abyssal World at the bottom of the Silver Sea's 99 Layers, so given how the superiority of Worlds are determined by their depth, Venuzdonoa scales to the Silver Sea because Venuzdonoa scales to Anos and Anos destroyed said Vortex.

(Revised) 5. Characters in the Silver Sea have reversed the flow of Order (that Fire Dew flows from Shallow to Deep) in the Silver Sea. Therefore, if characters that Venuzdonoa scales above can affect the entire Silver Sea, then of course Venuzdonoa can as well

(My) Arguments against Venuzdonoa scaling to the Silver Sea:

1. Anos didn't know about the existence of Bubbles or the Silver Sea when he made that statement. What he was referring to as "all of existence" was the World (Militia World) and everything in it.

2. People claim that Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds prove that there are no anti-feats to the statement. However, Deeper Worlds are still "all of existence" as Anos referred to, just like the Militia World is. Worlds (All of existence as was referred to by Anos at the time of the statement as he lacked knowledge of the Silver Sea) can't even survive in the environment of the Silver Sea without being surrounded by a Bubble, as the Silver Sea constantly drains magic power from everything it touches. The Silver Sea and the Worlds in the Silver Sea are not the same thing. Claiming that the statement about Venuzdonoa being capable of destroying "All of existence" also applies to the Silver Sea itself would be equating the Worlds in the Silver Sea to the actual Silver Sea, and they very clearly aren't the same thing. On top of that, Venuzdonoa has no feats even remotely comparable to that.

3. The narrative itself never stated that Anos was fated to destroy the Silver Sea. Parrington, a near-perfect Lion of Destruction did. Parrington's knowledge of the Lions of Destruction stems from the conceptual Lion of Destruction that all other Lions of Destruction (including Anos) are incarnations of. The conceptual Lion of Destruction has no feats of even affecting the Silver Sea itself. In fact, it is completely featless. Moreover, "fated to destroy the Silver Sea" can have different interpretations. It doesn't neccessarily mean that Anos could destroy the entire Silver Sea at once. The only way to determine which interpretation is most likely to be correct is by going off of previous feats in the series. And no feats in the series even remotely support that interpretation. Remember, Parrington himself is a near-perfect Lion of Destruction, and in Anos' fight with him, they only affected a single Deep World. Said Deep World wasn't even destroyed, and you have to remember that there are countless Worlds in each layer, and 99+ layers. No feats or statements in the series support or prove the interpretation of Parrington's statement that Anos can literally destroy the entire Silver Sea at once.

4. The Vortex being called the "Great Calamity of the Silver Sea" doesn't mean that it was a threat to the structure of the Silver Sea itself. All that was stated of it was that it damaged many small worlds. Nowhere was it stated that it affected the Silver Sea itself. You can even confirm this by checking the scans that Eldemade posted in an above comment. On top of that, while damaging many small worlds is an impressive feat, it isn't remotely comparable to the entire cosmology of the Silver Sea. (Revised) The Vortex that Anos destroyed isn't the Vortex in the Abyssal World of the Silver Sea. What Anos destroyed was the Vortex in the Abyss of Craving of the Calamity Abyss World. Despite their names sounding similar, the Calamity Abyss World is not the Abyssal World that lies at the bottom of the Silver Sea's 99 Layers. On top of that, in the story it is stated that only the Great Demon King Zinnia Shivaheld has reached the Abyss of the Silver Sea. In the scans I've provided up above, it states that only Issac (Yzak) has reached the Abyss. These two statements "contradict" because they aren't referring to the same Abyss. I would also like to add that the Abyssal World is always referred to as such. Never also as "the Abyss World" or something else. You can reference the scans I posted above (which make a distinction between the Abyssal World and the Calamity Abyss World) as well as the MGnF cosmology page on the wiki (which only refers to the Abyssal World as the Abyssal World). The wiki scan is from chapter 584.

(Revised) 5. Characters reversing the flow of Order in the Silver Sea isn't equivalent to affecting the cosmology/structure of the Silver Sea itself (ie the Silver Sea isn't dependent on Order). Claiming that it does would be making an equivalence between the Worlds in the Silver Sea to the Silver Sea itself. While it's stated that Worlds in the Silver Sea are dependent on their Order in order to survive, that is not stated of the Silver Sea itself, and once again, the Worlds in the Silver Sea are not the same as the Silver Sea itself. On top of that, Anos disturbing the Order of Destruction in his World by turning it into Venuzdonoa which allowed for resurrection and reincarnation to become easier didn't affect the rest of the Silver Sea. We know this because no one else in the Silver Sea even treated reincarnation as a viable concept. What we do know is that Order exists in Worlds, and that Order exists in the Silver Sea as well. It has been stated and demonstrated that Worlds are dependent on Order in order to function and survive. This has not been stated of the Silver Sea. Assuming that the Silver Sea is dependent on Order just the same as the Worlds in the Silver Sea are is merely false equivalency. Even the Order of the Silver Sea (Fire Dew flows from Shallow to Deep) being reversed simply affects whether deep magic is capable of being used in Shallow Worlds, or if shallow magic can be deepened in order to be used in Deep Worlds. In other words, it only affects the power of magic in Worlds depending on the depth of said Worlds, not the Layers themselves or the Silver Sea as a whole. There is no concrete or implied proof of such either.

Keep in mind, this is just a summary of the points made. The thread itself provides more context to these arguments, both for and against.
Click to expand...
^
Thread Summary above
 
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