Urban Warfare in the City of Eternal Nights Round 3 (Jim Raynor vs Doomguy)

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

Doomguy already has plenty of experience killing multiple enemies with similar RPM and can dodge their attacks by strafing. He has his ballista, which fires faster as it is a concentrated beam of energy rather than a projectile, so if anything Doomguy can fire at Jim before he switches modes.

 

[Not_Icarus]

I can't find an rpm in that page. Also the speed equalized rules actually put Doom Slayer at a disadvantage here. Meaning he won't be strafing bullets as he's now Superhuman at best which is leagues below Hypersonic. Even 2016's Chaingun only has an RPM of 900 according to the Doom Wiki

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

So what’s the winning argument here?

 

[Not_Icarus]

For who?

 

[Abstractions]

Also the speed equalized rules actually put Doom Slayer at a disadvantage here. Meaning he won't be strafing bullets as he's now Superhuman at best which is leagues below Hypersonic.

Jim wouldn't be dodging shots either, and if we are equalizing the speed of guns this would apply to him as well.

 

[First_Witch]

Bump

 

[DaReaperMan]

Going through all the speed Equalized rules, the fact Jim is Superhuman would equalize Doomguy's combat speed to Superhuman, and the rest of his speeds thrown down to the same league, so Doomguy's guns wouldn't be blitzing Jim cause he's comparable to his own weaponry, and while Doomguy can dodge Jim's bullets to some extent(they are faster than any bullet this key of doomguy would've ever found or gone against) the same can be said for Jim because he is comparable.

This is before considering Doomguy practically loses immediately if Jim hits him with a chronal device, a few right between the eyes.

And like I said before, if Jim's bullets being fast is a problem, we can go for the Astartes

 

[Abstractions]

And like I said before, if Jim's bullets being fast is a problem, we can go for the Astartes

Jim's guns would also be equalized in speed relative to how much Doomguy was reduced, they'd end up Superhuman in speed because you have to reduce Doomguy by about 85x to get him into Raynor's territory.

We're either making guns useless or it's just applied to every other speed.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Jim's guns would also be equalized in speed relative to how much Doomguy was reduced, they'd end up Superhuman in speed because you have to reduce Doomguy by about 85x to get him into Raynor's territory.

We're either making guns useless or it's just applied to every other speed.

"The combat speed of the faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc." ~ Versus Thread Rules

Raynor definitely isn't the faster character here, but you are right about Doomguy being able to dodge bullets

"Abilities based on speed are assumed to be retained. Characters that can run over water via speed can, for example, still do so even if now technically too slow for that. Likewise, a character who can create a tornado by running fast in a circle can still create one by this manner, even though they are now running slower."

But like I said, Raynor's bullets move faster than anything Doomguy has ever dealt with in this key.

 

[Abstractions]

Raynor definitely isn't the faster character

His guns are faster, they are reduced by the multiplier that Doomguy is subjected to.

 

[DaReaperMan]

His guns are faster, they are reduced by the multiplier that Doomguy is subjected to.

Mind showing me where that I stated?

"Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc"

Because right now, it's looking an awful like the slower character- Raynor's- speed is untouched by our rules for speed equalization right now.

 

[Abstractions]

Mind showing me where that I stated?

"Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc"

Because right now, it's looking an awful like the slower character- Raynor's- speed is untouched by our rules for speed equalization right now.

Would you disagree that Raynor is not the faster character in terms of attack speed because of his guns? If so, you'd agree that his guns get reduced by the same multiplier.

You cannot just reduce Doomguy's guns if they aren't faster than Raynor's equipment if you aren't reducing Raynor's.

 

[Lou_change]

I am afraid that's actually how it works

 

[DaReaperMan]

Would you disagree that Raynor is not the faster character in terms of attack speed because of his guns? If so, you'd agree that his guns get reduced by the same multiplier.

You cannot just reduce Doomguy's guns if they aren't faster than Raynor's equipment if you aren't reducing Raynor's.

Except attack speed was never mentioned in the rules outside of saying that the character with the faster combat speed would get put down to.

Oh, but that's exactly how it works. Be happy though, Doomguy can limitedly dodge Raynor's guns thanks to another rule.

Hell, I'm pretty sure the match could even be added because Raynor's attack speed with his guns is faster than Doomguy's speed overall normally.

 

[Wokistan]

I don't know why you're harping so much over the guy having hypersonic bullets when it's essentially irrelevant here. The relative speed equalization thing is put in place to not alter the function of things relying on a speed disparity, and as far as doomguy's concerned they function as hitscans with no travel time. Obviously we cannot assume that they have literally infinite speed, but we can demonstrate that at these sorts of ranges, those bullets aren't moving anywhere near his own speed. You end up with "peak human with hypersonic bullets" vs "peak human with bullets at an indeterminate speed which is nonetheless not possible to dodge and puts every encounter at point blank range in the proper sense of a range where you don't need to adjust for bullet drop or delay." The exact disparity in speeds between the bullets doesn't really matter because they're both faster enough to be ostensibly instantaneous.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I don't know why you're harping so much over the guy having hypersonic bullets when it's essentially irrelevant here. The relative speed equalization thing is put in place to not alter the function of things relying on a speed disparity, and as far as doomguy's concerned they function as hitscans with no travel time. Obviously we cannot assume that they have literally infinite speed, but we can demonstrate that at these sorts of ranges, those bullets aren't moving anywhere near his own speed. You end up with "peak human with hypersonic bullets" vs "peak human with bullets at an indeterminate speed which is nonetheless not possible to dodge and puts every encounter at point blank range in the proper sense of a range where you don't need to adjust for bullet drop or delay." The exact disparity in speeds between the bullets doesn't really matter because they're both faster enough to be ostensibly instantaneous.

maybe, I was always under the impression that Doomguy's guns aren't a blitz above him TBH

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

That just sounds like bad reasoning

Unless there's a specific statement or like, in-universe reason for thee guns to be faster than irl guns then I don't see how they're hypersonic or how anyone allowed as such.

IIRC it's because of this (from the SC Field Manual): "Hypersonic"

And possibly this as well: "Near-Hypersonic"

 

[Abstractions]

snip

Yes, these are the reasons for the ratings.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Are all of Post Night Sentinel Training Doom Guy's weapons 8-C? Or are some of them still Tier 9?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Looks like some scans and references to put on them, regardless let's get to the actual debate

Doomguy has all his guns.

I’m not sure what the argument here is for ol’ Jimbo. Doomguy is able to take shots from the ballista since he’s comparable to the marauder. He’ll definitely be able to soak a few shots.

If we’re arguing marksmanship, Doomguy should be comparable (likely above) the average sentinel marksman. A single battalion of whom defended their city walls from demons for 10 days and nights straight. He also has prior experience fighting swarms of demons (some of whom have homing missiles), Cyberdemons, and the Spider Mastermind. All of whom were capable of wiping out all the marine’s on Mars and any resistance held on Earth.

This version of Doomguy has now more experience with fighting more human oppenents. When he first arrived at Sentinel Prime, he was near death as the sentinels threw him into a trial by combat in a colosseum filled with former night sentinels fighting for a chance for freedom . The night sentinels themselves are a warrior society, training their soldiers in combat throughout their childhood. He among a few others were the only ones left standing.

After that, they trained him in their ways of combat, where his his resilience and fervor caught the attention of the sentinel inquisitors, the highest ranking warriors in sentinel society, only behind their king. He ascended their ranks quickly, earning the orange patch on his shoulder which in Hugo’s words, is reserved for only the best of warriors. Marauders, elite night sentinels turned evil in service of the Khan, also were no match for his anger.

yeah, soak some shots sure, never argued against that, but he can't last forever against a hail of bullets.

this smells suspiciously like what the Zerg do, which Marines have had to hold the ground against for days at a time, Raynor included, considering he has had to duke it out with zerg species that can one-shot him, literally walk into a zerg nesting ground with only a force of 3 other individuals and proceed to flood it with lava without dying, in fact the entirety of Char was impressive, because Jim would've had millions of zerg rushing his fort to get at the Xel'Naga artifact, and they had to fight off Kerrigan multiple times, who can otherwise completely shread through any defenses put against her and has in-depth knowledge on Terran defenses, which makes it even more impressive they could fight her off with what she brought forward. although the Xel'Naga artifact did help in that regard. as for homing attacks, Mutalisks are your way to go and such.

yeah, I was never gonna argue that if this came to melee Jim wouldn't be at a heavy disadvantage, that's obvious enough considering Doomguy has more close-range armaments than Jim has as well as more melee options, it was obvious Jim would lose that if he couldn't keep Doomguy away with his various weapons... though Jim has a LOT of experience against human opponents, he did happen to lead an entire revolution against a human empire after all, and he fought on the front lines for a lot of it.

So, as I see this going, if Jim can keep Doomguy away with his various armaments or hit him with a Chronal Rift device he has a good shot at winning with faster bullets (more piercing damage) and his own experience with firefights against other humans being overall better if I recall, add this with his various grenades and a trickier hax option that is IC for him to use, and we have a better chance for Jim to win. however, if Doomguy gets close, Jim loses, simple as that. Close match. I like it!

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Snip

But what if he had the Plasma Rifle

Raynor also fought and survived against all three major factions while at an disadvantage. Held back the Zerg on Mar Sara long enough to evacuate using only a Militia force twice. Fought his way through Mengsk and Duke's blockade with only a small army. Used that same army to fight and survive Zerg while stranded on Char, and fight against Protoss and Zerg on Aiur to rescue Tassadar and kill the Overmind.

 

[Not_Icarus]

I agree with reasons above, I just don't see any way for Doom Slayer getting around the chrono bombs. Raynor is a smart and resourceful soldier with of tons experience and natural mid-combat adaptation via the variety of foes he fought and his vast experience against a multitude of foes. Raynor's squishy here but I believe that both can aim dodge each other's shots. A good chrono bomb, grenades and a hail of hypersonic bullets going at an rpm of 1800 shreds Doom Slayer imo.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

But what if he had the Plasma Rifle

Raynor also fought and survived against all three major factions while at an disadvantage. Held back the Zerg on Mar Sara long enough to evacuate using only a Militia force twice. Fought his way through Mengsk and Duke's blockade with only a small army. Used that same army to fight and survive Zerg while stranded on Char, and fight against Protoss and Zerg on Aiur to rescue Tassadar and kill the Overmind.

Doomguy did similar feats (single-handedly slaying the forces of hell on both Mars, Earth, and where Doom 64 took place. Hell’s forces being able to completely wipe out any military resistance.) This was all before locking himself in hell for hundreds of years and meeting up with the sentinels btw. His situation was similar, with each demon being able to one shot him with a well placed attack.

A good chrono bomb

Doomguy’s not just gonna sit there and eat a bomb my boy. He’s dealt with Revenants, Marauders, and possessed soldiers. All of whom use high speed projectiles that Doomguy dodges.

 

[Not_Icarus]

Doom Slayer is moving at Superhuman here at best and chrono bombs have no defined canon ranges but are at least 2-3 times larger than the blast radius of Raynor's grenades. His dodging is gonna be massively impaired by the time slow. As soon as Raynor gets a good sight line on him, he has a good chance of just stopping him in his tracks with one chrono bomb if he feel threatened enough.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Doomguy did similar feats (single-handedly slaying the forces of hell on both Mars, Earth, and where Doom 64 took place. Hell’s forces being able to completely wipe out any military resistance.) This was all before locking himself in hell for hundreds of years and meeting up with the sentinels btw. His situation was similar, with each demon being able to one shot him with a well placed attack.



Doomguy’s not just gonna sit there and eat a bomb my boy. He’s dealt with Revenants, Marauders, and possessed soldiers. All of whom use high speed projectiles that Doomguy dodges.

where Doomguy killed a dozen, there weren't ten dozen taking their place, he didn't have to worry about the ******* sprouting out of the ground or exploding on him, there are MANY things the Zerg do that Hell's demons don't.

these bombs you speak of have PLENTY of range to em, and Jim isn't just gonna be an idjit and yeet it at him first thing, if he sees Doomguy easily dodging his nades lobbed at him he's gonna throw his Chrono bombs a bit of a ways away from Doomguy, and if even a pinkie toe gets caught in the area of effect he's slowed and he's gotten a couple hundred bullets to the head

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Are all of Post Night Sentinel Training Doom Guy's weapons 8-C? Or are some of them still Tier 9?

Is it safe to assume that most of Doom Guy's arsenal still scales to his Classic Key's arsenal other than the Super Shotgun w/Meat hook (Which is Doom Eternal stuff)?

 

[First_Witch]

Bump

 

[First_Witch]

Bump

 

[First_Witch]

Bump

 

[Popted2]

so can we vote now?

 

[Popted2]

where Doomguy killed a dozen, there weren't ten dozen taking their place, he didn't have to worry about the ******* sprouting out of the ground or exploding on him, there are MANY things the Zerg do that Hell's demons don't.

these bombs you speak of have PLENTY of range to em, and Jim isn't just gonna be an idjit and yeet it at him first thing, if he sees Doomguy easily dodging his nades lobbed at him he's gonna throw his Chrono bombs a bit of a ways away from Doomguy, and if even a pinkie toe gets caught in the area of effect he's slowed and he's gotten a couple hundred bullets to the head

His guns are faster, they are reduced by the multiplier that Doomguy is subjected to.

so what are the conclusions now?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Considering thing hasn't responded Jim FRA

 

[Popted2]

Jim looks to be baseline while doomguy is...maybe .98 tons idk

I mean, Doomguy is x3.5 times stronger than Jim
Don't think his guns will shred Doomguy

Iirc we don't equalize the speed of weapons, but if a characters can do something via speed, we assume he's capable of doing it anyway even if his speed is lowered for the sake of fairness.

For example, someone who runs on water or creates afterimages is assumed to be able to do it anyway if his speed gets adjusted to peak human to match an opponent.
In this case, guns would remain as fast as they normally are, but if a character can normally dodge bullets through speed and/or skill, he is assumed to be able of doing it anyway even with speed equalized.

Is it safe to assume that most of Doom Guy's arsenal still scales to his Classic Key's arsenal other than the Super Shotgun w/Meat hook (Which is Doom Eternal stuff)?

Doom Slayer is moving at Superhuman here at best and chrono bombs have no defined canon ranges but are at least 2-3 times larger than the blast radius of Raynor's grenades. His dodging is gonna be massively impaired by the time slow. As soon as Raynor gets a good sight line on him, he has a good chance of just stopping him in his tracks with one chrono bomb if he feel threatened enough.

Yes, these are the reasons for the ratings.

Doomguy has all his guns.

I’m not sure what the argument here is for ol’ Jimbo. Doomguy is able to take shots from the ballista since he’s comparable to the marauder. He’ll definitely be able to soak a few shots.

If we’re arguing marksmanship, Doomguy should be comparable (likely above) the average sentinel marksman. A single battalion of whom defended their city walls from demons for 10 days and nights straight. He also has prior experience fighting swarms of demons (some of whom have homing missiles), Cyberdemons, and the Spider Mastermind. All of whom were capable of wiping out all the marine’s on Mars and any resistance held on Earth.

This version of Doomguy has now more experience with fighting more human oppenents. When he first arrived at Sentinel Prime, he was near death as the sentinels threw him into a trial by combat in a colosseum filled with former night sentinels fighting for a chance for freedom . The night sentinels themselves are a warrior society, training their soldiers in combat throughout their childhood. He among a few others were the only ones left standing.

After that, they trained him in their ways of combat, where his his resilience and fervor caught the attention of the sentinel inquisitors, the highest ranking warriors in sentinel society, only behind their king. He ascended their ranks quickly, earning the orange patch on his shoulder which in Hugo’s words, is reserved for only the best of warriors. Marauders, elite night sentinels turned evil in service of the Khan, also were no match for his anger.

I don't know why you're harping so much over the guy having hypersonic bullets when it's essentially irrelevant here. The relative speed equalization thing is put in place to not alter the function of things relying on a speed disparity, and as far as doomguy's concerned they function as hitscans with no travel time. Obviously we cannot assume that they have literally infinite speed, but we can demonstrate that at these sorts of ranges, those bullets aren't moving anywhere near his own speed. You end up with "peak human with hypersonic bullets" vs "peak human with bullets at an indeterminate speed which is nonetheless not possible to dodge and puts every encounter at point blank range in the proper sense of a range where you don't need to adjust for bullet drop or delay." The exact disparity in speeds between the bullets doesn't really matter because they're both faster enough to be ostensibly instantaneous.

want to vote?

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

where Doomguy killed a dozen, there weren't ten dozen taking their place, he didn't have to worry about the ******* sprouting out of the ground or exploding on him, there are MANY things the Zerg do that Hell's demons don't.

Summoners spawn in more spawn in swarms of demons that spam projectiles on him, most of whom have some sort of projectile that has an explosive radius of several meters (summoners can summon cyberdemons, revenants , Marauders, and lost souls that explode in impact).

these bombs you speak of have PLENTY of range to em, and Jim isn't just gonna be an idjit and yeet it at him first thing, if he sees Doomguy easily dodging his nades lobbed at him he's gonna throw his Chrono bombs a bit of a ways away from Doomguy, and if even a pinkie toe gets caught in the area of effect he's slowed and he's gotten a couple hundred bullets to the head

How much range? The page doesn’t list them, if it’s just tens of meters, Doomguy can likely dodge them even if Jim sets them up since he’s used to dodging multiple projectiles with splash damage at a time.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Summoners spawn in more spawn in swarms of demons that spam projectiles on him, most of whom have some sort of projectile that has an explosive radius of several meters (summoners can summon cyberdemons, revenants , Marauders, and lost souls that explode in impact).



How much range? The page doesn’t list them, if it’s just tens of meters, Doomguy can likely dodge them even if Jim sets them up since he’s used to dodging multiple projectiles with splash damage at a time.

these projectiles are ones he can react to, he's not reacting to Jim's guns, and you only mentioned one kind of demon that can summon others, while your average Zerg Army is in the millions to billions, and more spawn by the second, usually faster than they can be killed, that's what always made the Zerg dangerous, that's why "Zerging" is a term used, they are endless, they are the swarm. they can sacrifice a million to kill just one of the enemy and still have every advantage. to fend off an attack from the zerg, to survive them, is about as hard as surviving 40K Orks on a planet. because they do not stop. they don't pause and let the enemy regroup, they just attack, and attack, and attack. that's why Char was so impressive for Jim, it is the main planet for the Zerg and has the highest population of any of the planets under their control. You could argue there were zerg in the trillions there.

Doomguy needs to dodge the entire radius of the Chrono Bomb, which instantly covers it's AoE, which is tens of meters yes, but the other thing Doomguy needs to do is do this without eating a ton of lead, cause it works both ways, Jim is a very resourceful fighter, this means using grenades then the chrono bomb to trap Doomguy and beat him like that is 100% IC for him to do.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

Dude. Hell is infinite.Doomguy literally went to the place where there were an infinite amount of demons and slayed them for three hundred years prior to the night sentinels finding him. The demons gave him no rest. It’s a multiversal structure that eats universes and corrupts them.

Doomguy needs to dodge the entire radius of the Chrono Bomb, which instantly covers it's AoE, which is tens of meters yes, but the other thing Doomguy needs to do is do this without eating a ton of lead, cause it works both ways, Jim is a very resourceful fighter, this means using grenades then the chrono bomb to trap Doomguy and beat him like that is 100% IC for him to do.

So do the summoner’s projectiles, which cover patches of the arena in fire instantly. There’s literally nothing stopping Doomguy from seeing the setup, dodging everything, and outskilling/outgunning Jim to death. He has the AP, skill, and weapon variety to take him down.

I vote the slayer.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Dude. Hell is infinite.Doomguy literally went to the place where there were an infinite amount of demons and slayed them for three hundred years prior to the night sentinels finding him. The demons gave him no rest. It’s a multiversal structure that eats universes and corrupts them.



So do the summoner’s projectiles, which cover patches of the arena in fire instantly. There’s literally nothing stopping Doomguy from seeing the setup, dodging everything, and outskilling/outgunning Jim to death. He has the AP, skill, and weapon variety to take him down.

I vote the slayer.

I don't know about you, but I never saw a scene in DOOM where the Slayer randomly had to fight off Hell constantly, or that he had to fight off seas of demons. just because the place is infinite doesn't mean the Slayer was in the thick of it all that time or they were all just huddled together. in fact, the Slayer himself has a lot of AoE options, Jim however doesn't usually carry much around, this is why his grenades and shit are optional equipment.

When did he dodge it? and don't give me "Well he had to!" because at that point Jim would've had to dodge god hydralisk spines so numerous they'd make Doomguy's best dodging feat look like just dodging around paper planes at 1 mile an hour. and even if Doomguy sees the setup he still needs to not get, ya know, a HEV bullet to the brain, or a couple hundred bullets to his chest and making a new asshole. Their bullets blitz eachother. your underestimating Jim's aim here to not be able to do that.

 

[First_Witch]

Okay guys, this seems to take a while. I will let this one stay open until the rest of rounds are concluded. If we dont reach a verdict until then, I will coinflip this one. This is a threat.

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

Okay guys, this seems to take a while. I will let this one stay open until the rest of rounds are concluded. If we dont reach a verdict until then, I will coinflip this one. This is a threat.

Just flip it, please.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Just flip it, please.

Do you surrender?