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Unstoppable Force vs Asriel Dreemurr
- Thread starter Kiryu2012
- Start date
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A match with unstoppable force? Cool, curious how asriel can win, time travel useless due to force being acausal, and even if he wasn't he was the conceptual embodiment of destruction since the creation of the multiverse anyway. Timeline erasure, cool i guess, does it erasure conceptual beings though? Soul manipulation, same question as before not sure that does anything to a conceptual being.
Only power nullification seems useful, but depends what it can be used to nullify, has it nullified concept manipulation? If not the incarnation of pure power, unstoppable force takes this.
Only power nullification seems useful, but depends what it can be used to nullify, has it nullified concept manipulation? If not the incarnation of pure power, unstoppable force takes this.
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Power Null is only in his Full Power form IIRC ^
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So he doesn't even have that here, yea not seeing how asriel wins this, can determination do anything here?
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Outside of saving/loading, not rly
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Would that even help if asriel gets erased conceptually?
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Don't think so; then again I'm not an UT expert; but I doubt it working even when erased on the conceptual level.
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At the moment looks like UF takes this low difficulty, and besides his concept manipulation, all eternals can manipulate fate so yea...
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That would make asriel a lot stronger than uf in terms of ap and give asriel power null but don't think it helps, unless asriel has power nulled conceptual entities like uf before than i would call nlf on him doing that here.
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It would be a stomp.Kiryu2012 said:
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No it wouldn't, asriel has no way of putting uf down, nor will a power boost help it.
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UF is the conceptual embodiment of the concept of destruction of an infinite number of universe, it's attack violent power, is the embodiment of destruction, in otherwords, a conceptually attack, there is no reason to be believe he can't conceptually erase another 2-A.
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So the conceptual embodiment of destruction of an infinite number of universes, can't conceptual erase another 2-A character? Ok then, and we usually assume that characters on the same level can affect those of their level, this has always been a thing, the only time proof is ever needed is if it's someone above their level in terms of like dimensional level.
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Also we can play this feats game if you want, show me feats of asriel affecting a conceptual entity on the scale of UF.
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@CP we apparently do need feats for that, its why we can't say Madoka kills via concept manipulation (even though I still find it weird how conceptually destroying something on a 2-A scale doesn't = being able to conceptual destroy a being on a 2-A scale.)
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But you are saying the literal conceptual embodiment of a infinite number of universes, can't conceptual erase another 2-A, so i was saying show me proof asriel can affect uf. If we go by this logic neither can affect the other, which is ridiculous. And while i think asriel shouldn't be able to affect uf in the first place due to embodying a literal concept, i don't agree that uf can't affect asriel.
This is like saying arceus can't affect 2-C's on his level cause he has never fought 2-C's on his level, yea he stomped 2-C's but not 2-C's on his exact level so it doesn't count, he has no feats of affecting 2-C's on his level, so he can't affect 2-C's on his level. I can literally makes this argument about a lot of characters.
This is like saying arceus can't affect 2-C's on his level cause he has never fought 2-C's on his level, yea he stomped 2-C's but not 2-C's on his exact level so it doesn't count, he has no feats of affecting 2-C's on his level, so he can't affect 2-C's on his level. I can literally makes this argument about a lot of characters.
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@CP I'll leave a post about your concerns on Azzy's wall, since he's the one who first stated it (I agree with ya by the way)
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Asriel can't kill a conceptual, multiversal constant.
Though onto the other subject.
"UF is the conceptual embodiment of the concept of destruction of an infinite number of universe, it's attack violent power, is the embodiment of destruction, in otherwords, a conceptually attack, there is no reason to be believe he can't conceptually erase another 2-A."
Not remotely how this works. Being able to destroy a concept throughout a multiverse proves you can do just that. It doesn't prove you can destroy the concept of another 2-A, unless that 2-A is literally just a sentient multiverse and not really anything else. Especially when there are varying degrees of 2-A. Does being able to remove the concept from one universe mean you can now conceptually erase other Low 2-Cs on your level without suggestion or proof? No, nt at all.
"So the conceptual embodiment of destruction of an infinite number of universes, can't conceptual erase another 2-A character?"
Being a conceptual 2-A character means you are a conceptual 2-A character. Without evidence, it does not mean you can conceptually destroy other 2-As.
"Also we can play this feats game if you want, show me feats of asriel affecting a conceptual entity on the scale of UF."
He can't. Though that's not the point.
"If we go by this logic neither can affect the other, which is ridiculous."
Nope, it just means "UF can't conceptually erase another 2-A without proof". It doesn't mean he can't smack up Asriel in any other way.
"This is like saying arceus can't affect 2-C's on his level cause he has never fought 2-C's on his level, yea he stomped 2-C's but not 2-C's on his exact level so it doesn't count, he has no feats of affecting 2-C's on his level, so he can't affect 2-C's on his level."
It's more akin to saying "Arceus can't instantly conceptually erase 2-C's on his level because he's never done so to 2-C's on his exact level", which is 100% true. Though going by the Creation Trio, he probably could to 2-C's a bit below his level.
If UF has conceptually destroyed other 2-As, this argument is meaningless. If he hasn't and hasn't been stated to be able to, then you need evidence to say he can. There isn't some sort of weird double standard here.
Though onto the other subject.
"UF is the conceptual embodiment of the concept of destruction of an infinite number of universe, it's attack violent power, is the embodiment of destruction, in otherwords, a conceptually attack, there is no reason to be believe he can't conceptually erase another 2-A."
Not remotely how this works. Being able to destroy a concept throughout a multiverse proves you can do just that. It doesn't prove you can destroy the concept of another 2-A, unless that 2-A is literally just a sentient multiverse and not really anything else. Especially when there are varying degrees of 2-A. Does being able to remove the concept from one universe mean you can now conceptually erase other Low 2-Cs on your level without suggestion or proof? No, nt at all.
"So the conceptual embodiment of destruction of an infinite number of universes, can't conceptual erase another 2-A character?"
Being a conceptual 2-A character means you are a conceptual 2-A character. Without evidence, it does not mean you can conceptually destroy other 2-As.
"Also we can play this feats game if you want, show me feats of asriel affecting a conceptual entity on the scale of UF."
He can't. Though that's not the point.
"If we go by this logic neither can affect the other, which is ridiculous."
Nope, it just means "UF can't conceptually erase another 2-A without proof". It doesn't mean he can't smack up Asriel in any other way.
"This is like saying arceus can't affect 2-C's on his level cause he has never fought 2-C's on his level, yea he stomped 2-C's but not 2-C's on his exact level so it doesn't count, he has no feats of affecting 2-C's on his level, so he can't affect 2-C's on his level."
It's more akin to saying "Arceus can't instantly conceptually erase 2-C's on his level because he's never done so to 2-C's on his exact level", which is 100% true. Though going by the Creation Trio, he probably could to 2-C's a bit below his level.
If UF has conceptually destroyed other 2-As, this argument is meaningless. If he hasn't and hasn't been stated to be able to, then you need evidence to say he can. There isn't some sort of weird double standard here.
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@Azzy Just so i can understand this, why is this difference with conceptual beings a thing in the first place? I don't think we ask proof that a 2-B character can affect another 2-B character with their hax, not just in regards to concept manipulation, but any ability really, or is this a new thing where for any ability you need to show proof that it can work on the level you're placed?
Also about the distinction between being able to destroy a concept throughout a multiverse, and being able to destroy the concept of another 2-A, if the 2-A has never shown any resistance to concept manipulation why do we need proof the concept manipulator being able to do so? Does being 2-A grant you some sort of resistance to such abilities, i am not understanding why being able to tank an infinite amount of universes being blown up on you, means you can survive being concept manipulated, even if the concept manipulation is of a low scale? What's special about 2-A durability?
Also about the distinction between being able to destroy a concept throughout a multiverse, and being able to destroy the concept of another 2-A, if the 2-A has never shown any resistance to concept manipulation why do we need proof the concept manipulator being able to do so? Does being 2-A grant you some sort of resistance to such abilities, i am not understanding why being able to tank an infinite amount of universes being blown up on you, means you can survive being concept manipulated, even if the concept manipulation is of a low scale? What's special about 2-A durability?
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Because, in the vast majority of cases, said 2-B character has already demonstrated their abilities on beings of a similar level. If said 2-B character has never done this and only ever affected lower beings, we would in fact be asking for proof.
Affecting a concept throughout infinite universes is leagues below conceptually altering another 2-A. In many cases, said 2-A beings completely dwarf and are transcendent of their native multiverse, hence why they can destroy it so easily. If you erase a concept from across an infinite multiverse, you are erasing one aspect of a 4-D continuum an infinite number of times over. This is not the same as erasing the concept of a being who is superior to said multiverse. It is not about durability, but scale.
This is why something like Homura tearing a fundamental piece of God Madoka away is more impressive than Madoka altering a concept across infinite universes.
Affecting a concept throughout infinite universes is leagues below conceptually altering another 2-A. In many cases, said 2-A beings completely dwarf and are transcendent of their native multiverse, hence why they can destroy it so easily. If you erase a concept from across an infinite multiverse, you are erasing one aspect of a 4-D continuum an infinite number of times over. This is not the same as erasing the concept of a being who is superior to said multiverse. It is not about durability, but scale.
This is why something like Homura tearing a fundamental piece of God Madoka away is more impressive than Madoka altering a concept across infinite universes.
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Hmm, so in the case of erasing the concept from an infinite universe, it's just a massive range feat done repeatedly basically, while the 2-A character is a character who is superior to their multiverse, in this case where asriel is infinite superior to his.
Question though, does it apply to beings only capable of destroying an infinite amount of 4-D universes though? I mean if you're superior or dwarf your multiverse, in the case of erasing a concept, i understand the rational is that you're just erasing an aspect of a 4-D universe an infinite times over, but just simply destroying an infinite universe doesn't mean you have destroyed all aspects of the multiverse, unless it's stated even that all aspects of it were destroyed, all you're destroying is the time and space of an infinite number of universes, which are two aspects, compared to in the case of erasing a single concept across an infinite number of universes. I guess in that sense 2 aspect (time and space)>1 aspect (a concept)? But then time and space are concepts so a concept would be a superior aspect i think, or does quantity overcome quality? Might be overanalyzing this.
Question though, does it apply to beings only capable of destroying an infinite amount of 4-D universes though? I mean if you're superior or dwarf your multiverse, in the case of erasing a concept, i understand the rational is that you're just erasing an aspect of a 4-D universe an infinite times over, but just simply destroying an infinite universe doesn't mean you have destroyed all aspects of the multiverse, unless it's stated even that all aspects of it were destroyed, all you're destroying is the time and space of an infinite number of universes, which are two aspects, compared to in the case of erasing a single concept across an infinite number of universes. I guess in that sense 2 aspect (time and space)>1 aspect (a concept)? But then time and space are concepts so a concept would be a superior aspect i think, or does quantity overcome quality? Might be overanalyzing this.
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i dont know normaly, but dt could keep frisk alive with full power asriel and asriel also has more dt (equal or more, as frisk was unable to save) so unless UF can erase something that asriel at srongest was completly unable to affect id say that it could help here
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This is about to totally not be fair, UF is potentially going to 5-D.
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trhen this should be closed
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