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Unlimited Archer Upgrades: Low 6-B for Archer Emyia

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FallenMaou2234

FallenMaou2234

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Yeah so Maou again........hopefully this hasn't been talked about before cause that'd be awkward

Anyways let's get into it looking at Archer's profile:
"Island level+ with Triple-Linked Crane Wings (C Ranked Noble Phantasms, which are equivalent to A Ranked Noble Phantasm's), Kanshou and Bakuya: Overedge (Took off one of Berserker's lives), Caladbolg II (An A Ranked Broken Phantasm), Hrunting (An A Ranked Broken Phantasm), or Unlimited Blade Works (Unlimited Blade Works can match the Gate of Babylon)"

Which is decent but it's a little toooo SAFE, that said i'm here to convince you respectable individuals to be a little less safe.

to start


We rate A+ ranked noble phantasm's as Low 6-B based on this calc and in the material books Unlimited Blade Works is Ranked E-A++ . Now it's entirley possible to claim that FGO has it at E-A but we know that NP ratings in FGO tend to differ from their stand alone works and can be super wonky. Take the very Balmung used as the basis for scaling A+ NP's to Low 6-B. Post-rank up quest its rated at EX and A looking at his profile however we still consider it to be A+ because of Apocrypha. So I see no reason not to do the same with Archer and his E-A++ from Fate/Stay Night.

Plus one of Archers current justifications for 6-C+ is "Unlimited Blade Works (Unlimited Blade Works can match the Gate of Babylon)" and well not only is G.O.B E-A++ but G.O.B on Gilgamesh's profile is "Island level+ to Small Country level with Gate of Babylon" and Unlimited Blade Works can match said Gate of Babylon.

On top of this there are other justifications like Shirou mimicing Nine Lives using the abilities he gained from archer and his arm annnd


The fact that this scene exists. Archer kinda just casually states he could reproduce a near perfect copy of EXUSUCALIBAAAAAAAAAAA(sorry had to do it) capable of clashing pretty evenly with the original EXUSUCALIBAAAAAAA which is once again an A++ Rank noble phantasm. Also yes I know he did state right after that it'd probably kill him if he did, but even then Nasu himself stated that even if Archer can't reproduce Excalibur that "There might be some degraded NPs with similar performance in stock". In the same interview as well he makes reference specifically to to the fact that EA(sports to the game) and Excalibur are divine constructs as opposed to their rank which may imply that the reason for Excalibur being irreplicable is that it's a divine construct rather than it being an A++ noble phantasm (yes i know EA can't be replicated regardless cause they mind fart when they try to analyse it).

I digress though, going back to the "degraded NP's with similar performance" the fact that there are weapons with similar power to A++ noble phantasms like Excalibur and the fact that UBW is E-A++ in the Fate/Material books and in F/SN probably means that Archer has one or two A+ rank NP's lying around. Add on to that the fact that UBW=G.O.B (without EA, Enkidu and all his other divine constructs) and G.O.B is "Island level+ to Small Country level" i think our edgy hero of justice hating boi deserves a Low 6-B rating via UBW and here's how it should go on the profile

Small Country level with Unlimited Blade Works (It is an E-A++ ranked noble phantasm, can match Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon and is stated to contain degraded noble phantasms with similar performance to Excalibur which is an A++ rank noble phantasm)

Anyways there you have it try not to flame me too hard if this actually has been discussed before and i'm just being dumb lol
 
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I'm pretty sure Shirou's UBW can match GoB because Shirou traced the output of GoB in that fight, no? As for Archer, IIRC he's already stored thousands of projections in his UBW by the time he appears in the Holy grail war so I wouldn't say they're the same, unless I'm missing something
 
Adrianelloxd said:
I'm pretty sure Shirou's UBW can match GoB because Shirou traced the output of GoB in that fight, no? As for Archer, IIRC he's already stored thousands of projections in his UBW by the time he appears in the Holy grail war so I wouldn't say they're the same, unless I'm missing something
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Shirou's UBW countered every shot from GoB blow for blow and nothing Gilgamesh was doing worked until he decided to pull out Ea, even then he didn't get to use it because he hesitated and allowed Shirou to cut his arm off.
 
Mageman460 said:
I mean, shouldn't a broken Caladbolg II already be Low 6-B since it's ranked down and then back up by being broken? Caladbolg is normally A+ ranked.
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Well technically its A-Rank as a broken Phantasm so it doesn't qualify for the Low 6-B we give to A+ NP"s
 
Veloxt1r0kore said:
This would scaled to Chloe as well, right?
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Probably not she already has her own separate Low 6-B but the crux of this Upgrade is UBW the Reality Marble Chloe has never really used UBW in Prisma or even FGO so it would be difficult to scale this to her aside from "She's Archers class card So she should have UBW" which I don't particularly like the sound of cause it feels like a bit of a reach
 
FallenMaou2234 said:
Probably not she already has her own separate Low 6-B but the crux of this Upgrade is UBW the Reality Marble Chloe has never really used UBW in Prisma or even FGO so it would be difficult to scale this to her aside from "She's Archers class card So she should have UBW" which I don't particularly like the sound of cause it feels like a bit of a reach
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Kuro absolutely does not get the Reality Marble. At the very least she needs a confirmation that she can use it, but I have a feeling it's a case similar to HF Shirou in that her inner vision contradicts Archers or something. She has UBW as she can trace and project Noble Phantasms. She just can't deploy the RM at this moment.
 
Mageman460 said:
Kuro absolutely does not get the Reality Marble. At the very least she needs a confirmation that she can use it, but I have a feeling it's a case similar to HF Shirou in that her inner vision contradicts Archers or something. She has UBW as she can trace and project Noble Phantasms. She just can't deploy the RM at this moment.
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Precisely, it's waaay too much of a reach
 
Mageman460 said:
Kuro absolutely does not get the Reality Marble. At the very least she needs a confirmation that she can use it, but I have a feeling it's a case similar to HF Shirou in that her inner vision contradicts Archers or something. She has UBW as she can trace and project Noble Phantasms. She just can't deploy the RM at this moment.
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Minor nitpick, but UBW IS the Reality Marble. "Projection"/Tracing is a function of UBW, that occurs IN it and then is brought out, or as Shirou says, loaded and shot. So, to make sense at least following Fate/Stay Night lore (which Kaleid DOES say is not always the case, explictly), she has to have at least acess to the Reality Marble. You can maybe explain it by saying she can't reenact it as a true RM because a RM explictly imposes the diagram engraved in the Soul of it's user, which she doesn't have (and that even the difference between Archer Emiya and Shirou, the "same person", was a factor), but this only makes her lose the field invocation really, not any power in quantity or quality. The power of the RM deployed isn't really all that important, even though it tends to be glamorized and hyped (it is cool as **** though). But maybe it's one of the cases Kaleid breaks Nasuverse rules and that's the end.

Kuro/Chloe however has shown the ability to project Excalibur and is a better magus than Emiya could ever be as far as "circuits specs". She has projected Excalibur without much consequence, while Archer has said he would only be able to do so (and he says a similar/something like that even, not the "true" thng) by basically killing himself because of the mag. energy use/effort.
 
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LehenDuo said:
Kuro/Chloe however has shown the ability to project Excalibur and is a better magus than Emiya could ever be as far as "circuits specs". She has projected Excalibur without much consequence, while Archer has said he would only be able to do so (and he says a similar/something like that even, not the "true" thng) by basically killing himself because of the mag. energy use/effort.
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Yes and if you go to her Prisma page she has a Low 6-B as a result of being able to trace Excalibur the crux of the upgrade is "Low 6-B Via UBW" and Chloe really hasn't shown that she can deploy the reality marble so she wouldn't get a Low 6-B for that if you wanna upgrade her FGO profile to Low 6-B for that reason that's another CRT entirely
 
FallenMaou2234 said:
Probably not she already has her own separate Low 6-B but the crux of this Upgrade is UBW the Reality Marble Chloe has never really used UBW in Prisma or even FGO so it would be difficult to scale this to her aside from "She's Archers class card So she should have UBW" which I don't particularly like the sound of cause it feels like a bit of a reach
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No no no no, what i mean is her other broken phantasm like Hrunting and Caladbolg
 
Veloxt1r0kore said:
No no no no, what i mean is her other broken phantasm like Hrunting and Caladbolg
Click to expand...
Well possibly Caladbolg is usually A+ or A++ in Rank but Caladbolg II and III are A-Rank and A-Rank only qualifies for the 6-C calc regardless I think that's a different revision thread all together
 
FallenMaou2234 said:
Yes and if you go to her Prisma page she has a Low 6-B as a result of being able to trace Excalibur the crux of the upgrade is "Low 6-B Via UBW" and Chloe really hasn't shown that she can deploy the reality marble so she wouldn't get a Low 6-B for that if you wanna upgrade her FGO profile to Low 6-B for that reason that's another CRT entirely
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UBW deployed has no offensive effect in itself, how could it possibly be given an offensive tier?
The tracing of Excalibur IS UBW, the only spell Emiya truly knows is UBW, therefore saying Kuro has X offensive because of tracing Excalibur and saying because of UBW is basically the same thing, one being more specific, one more general...
 
LehenDuo said:
UBW deployed has no offensive effect in itself, how could it possibly be given an offensive tier?
The tracing of Excalibur IS UBW, the only spell Emiya truly knows is UBW, therefore saying Kuro has X offensive because of tracing Excalibur and saying because of UBW is basically the same thing, one being more specific, one more general...
Click to expand...
Because Tracing is not UBW it's the byproduct if there is nothing to trace then where does that leave you? The Low 6-B doesn't come from deploying unlimited blade works it comes from what's inside Unlimited Blade Works, which is a shit ton of NP's ranging from E-A++ in Rank so tracing Excalibur=/Being able to call upon all the weapons inside Unlimited Blade Works. That's why they have separate ratings

Kuro traced Excalibur which is A++ that's Low 6-B

Shirou and Archer can deploy the Reality Marble which contains a whole host of E-A++ NP's and can match G.O.B with said NP's whilst inside the RM(G.O.B being E-A++ and Island Level+ to Small Country Level in it's own right)

That's why this revision doesn't apply to Kuro because she can't (or hasn't shown the ability to) deploy the Reality Marble and use the contents that are within it simple as that
 
FallenMaou2234 said:
Because Tracing is not UBW it's the byproduct if there is nothing to trace then where does that leave you?
Click to expand...
No, it's a use of UBW. He just gives it a special name. HS EMIYA has been given ONE and one spell only, as the VN says, the one single talent he honed bla bla bla. Shirou only started to get any good at Tracing after recognizing Tracing was coming from UBW.
Iskandar can summon Bucephalus or other individual soldiers from his RM the same way Shirou summons individual weapons.
FallenMaou2234 said:
it comes from what's inside Unlimited Blade Works, which is a shit ton of NP's ranging from E-A++ in Rank so tracing Excalibur=/Being able to call upon all the weapons inside Unlimited Blade Works. That's why they have separate ratings
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A shit ton of weapons that can be called to the outside world and that have no difference in power. And Kuro can call Kanshou and Bakuya, what's the difference between them and the others? She has HS EMIYA UBW and has to have acess, claiming something as she not being able to call weapons from it like that without any reference is non-sense.
FallenMaou2234 said:
Shirou and Archer can deploy the Reality Marble which contains a whole host of E-A++ NP's and can match G.O.B with said NP's whilst inside the RM(G.O.B being E-A++ and Island Level+ to Small Country Level in it's own right)
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If Archer has X weapon in his RM, Kuro has to have as she literally inherits his NP RM. The deployment of the RM doesn't affect power in any way whatsoever, it only gives him a speed advantage in attacking, they remain the same weapons that he can summon to the World. This is because to summon them to the World, he HAS TO create them in the RM first, then summon them - eliminating one step makes him faster than Gil's deployment through GoB. It has nothing to do with Attack Potency.
FallenMaou2234 said:
That's why this revision doesn't apply to Kuro because she can't (or hasn't shown the ability to) deploy the Reality Marble and use the contents that are within it simple as that
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Again, it's a contradiction to say Kuro traced Excalibut because of Archer EMIYA card then say she can't use the contents - K&B proves she can from day one. Shirou projection's are DONE in the RM, INSIDE it, them are brought to the World - the weapons are the bullets he LOADS, that is, they are already created/done, he only brings them to the World. That's why they are that good, that's why he can ignore all rules normal magi have while using projection. As Illya has said, it's wrong to say he's using projection, to begin with.

And again, to say the deployment or not of the RM in the World changes Attack Potency is just wrong. The difference is speed of deployment of the weapons and the fact the weapons are there to begin with in a number he wouldn't normally be able to summon in one go. It makes no sense saying to skip one step of the process makes things stronger, but it does make them faster.
 
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LehenDuo said:
No, it's a use of UBW. He just gives it a special name. HS EMIYA has been given ONE and one spell only, as the VN says, the one single talent he honed bla bla bla. Shirou only started to get any good at Tracing after recognizing Tracing was coming from UBW.
Iskandar can summon Bucephalus or other individual soldiers from his RM the same way Shirou summons individual weapons.

A shit ton of weapons that can be called to the outside world and that have no difference in power. And Kuro can call Kanshou and Bakuya, what's the difference between them and the others? She has HS EMIYA UBW and has to have acess, claiming something as she not being able to call weapons from it like that without any reference is non-sense.
Click to expand...
No claiming she should get a rating via the weapons shes never been shown to weild without a reference is what is nonsense it's like me giving Fate route Shirou Low 6-B because of UBW when the only weapon we know for sure he can trace that's Low 6-B is Caliburn because Tracing comes as a byproduct of Unlimited Blade works there's too little to go off of

Once again Kuro hasn't shown the ability to use the RM and thus we cannot just assume that she has access to every single one of the armaments inside she can trace specific armaments but that's about it her NP in FGO is Triple Linked Crane Wings and that's exactly where the issue lies

That's why it's better to leave her as is because she's traced Excalibur which is indeed an A++ NP so theres no need to reach but aside from that the rest are A-Rank Broken Phantasms which don't particularly qualify for Low 6-B

At the very least we need evidence that she can deploy the RM for this to apply if not it's better to stick to the ratings of the specific Armaments she's traced rather than trying to reach and try scale her to UBW when we don't even know if she can use it

And even if a shit ton can be called outside the world way way way more can be called inside UBW because when you're inside theres no energy expended Tracing and projecting like when you're outside simple as that
 
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