Universal Energy Systems

[KLOL506]

No, here's the thing, only experts have 100% efficiency because they learned the techniques required to control said energy source properly that doesn't burn them out so quickly, novices don't because they're not trained well enough on how to conserve and control it when they need it the most.

Better =/= Perfect.

Even perfect control may be limited in the setting to a certain level of efficiency below 100%

Please stop trying to defend this indefensible position and just stick with DT's argument of it probably not being big enough to worry about.

I'm sorry what? How does "perfect" equate to "less than 100% efficiency"?

And limited how? Can you explain it to me? Because this seems to be entering the realm of being overtly nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm sorry what? How does "perfect" equate to "less than 100% efficiency"?

And limited how? Can you explain it to me? Because this seems to be entering the realm of being overtly nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking.

Because "perfect" is relative to what is possible in the setting. If 10% efficiency is all that's possible, a perfect elemental master would wield the elements with 10% efficiency.

 

[KLOL506]

I'm sorry what? How does "perfect" equate to "less than 100% efficiency"?

And limited how? Can you explain it to me? Because this seems to be entering the realm of being overtly nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking.

Because "perfect" is relative to what is possible in the setting. If 10% efficiency is all that's possible, a perfect elemental master would wield the elements with 10% efficiency.

And how exactly did you come to that value as the efficiency value without confirming the case with the source material?

Because stuff like this requires explicit confirmation from other source material to be accepted.

 

[Agnaa]

And how exactly did you come to that value as the efficiency value without confirming the case with the source material?

Because stuff like this requires explicit confirmation from other source material to be accepted.

That's exactly the point I'm making to you. I seriously doubt that any verse gives explicit confirmation of 100% efficiency. Let alone enough verses for us to assume that by default for every verse which doesn't mention it.

 

[KLOL506]

And how exactly did you come to that value as the efficiency value without confirming the case with the source material?

Because stuff like this requires explicit confirmation from other source material to be accepted.

That's exactly the point I'm making to you. I seriously doubt that any verse gives explicit confirmation of 100% efficiency. Let alone enough verses for us to assume that by default for every verse which doesn't mention it.

Problem with that assumption is that whereas IRL machinery can't do efficiency well enough even when refined to the max due to parasitic power losses from heat, friction and whatever, those can't apply to fictitious supernatural forces that bypass these restrictions altogether and depend on how much control you have over the energy source.

 

[Agnaa]

Why do you assume that fictitious supernatural forces bypass those things?

 

[KLOL506]

Why do you assume that fictitious supernatural forces bypass those things?

Because by default they by their fictitious nature can't conform to the laws of physics most of the time and IRL are considered as complete pseudoscience?

And yeah, I know, exceptions exist. But they're just that. Exceptions. Not a rule.

 

[Agnaa]

Because by default they by their fictitious nature can't conform to the laws of physics most of the time and IRL are considered as complete pseudoscience?

And yeah, I know, exceptions exist. But they're just that. Exceptions. Not a rule.

Actually, we tend to assume that fictitious things follow the laws of physics until they're shown to break them. That's why calcs are possible in the first place, if we treated all of fiction as physics-defying pseudoscience we wouldn't be able to index much at all.

Also, when they are shown to break the laws of physics, we only assume that they break the laws which they've been shown to broken. Being able to go faster than light does not invalidate that verse's mountain-busting feats (even though I have seen battleboarders on other websites argue this).

 

[KLOL506]

Because by default they by their fictitious nature can't conform to the laws of physics most of the time and IRL are considered as complete pseudoscience?

And yeah, I know, exceptions exist. But they're just that. Exceptions. Not a rule.

Actually, we tend to assume that fictitious things follow the laws of physics until they're shown to break them. That's why calcs are possible in the first place, if we treated all of fiction as physics-defying pseudoscience we wouldn't be able to index much at all.

We already treat esoteric sources of energy as being physics defying to a certain degree until they're used to perform feats of creation, destruction and the like.

Also, when they are shown to break the laws of physics, we only assume that they break the laws which they've been shown to broken. Being able to go faster than light does not invalidate that verse's mountain-busting feats (even though I have seen battleboarders on other websites argue this).

Not sure how that relates to parasitic power loss from heat and friction, stuff that logically has no place to even work inside an esoteric energy source free of such restrictions because it's not an actual machine.

 

[Agnaa]

We already treat esoteric sources of energy as being physics defying to a certain degree until they're used to perform feats of creation, destruction and the like.

In what ways do we do that?

Not sure how that relates to parasitic power loss from heat and friction, stuff that logically has no place to even work inside an esoteric energy source free of such restrictions because it's not an actual machine.

No it has logical reason to work. Energy is being moved through reality, and used to exert influence on physical objects. It's not particularly rare for these energy sources to be visible, to leak as auras into the environment, or to be harnessed in vials or potions. Friction, radiation, and leakage would all be expected with something like that.

I would agree if this energy source was purely non-physical and used for purely non-physical purposes, but at that point it wouldn't be performing AP feats anyway, except as an unquantifiable chain reaction.

 

[KLOL506]

We already treat esoteric sources of energy as being physics defying to a certain degree until they're used to perform feats of creation, destruction and the like.

In what ways do we do that?

The fact that they manipulate elements or other supernatural phenomena?

Not sure how that relates to parasitic power loss from heat and friction, stuff that logically has no place to even work inside an esoteric energy source free of such restrictions because it's not an actual machine.

No it has logical reason to work. Energy is being moved through reality, and used to exert influence on physical objects. It's not particularly rare for these energy sources to be visible, to leak as auras into the environment, or to be harnessed in vials or potions. Friction, radiation, and leakage would all be expected with something like that.

Which now completely disrupts the reason for the existence of Attack Potency existing since IRL energy gets dispersed upon impact, even punches getting dissipated into heat energy, not so much in fiction.

 

[Agnaa]

The fact that they manipulate elements or other supernatural phenomena?

You say "We treat them as physics-defying until they perform feats of creation/destruction/etc."

I asked how we treat them as physics-defying until they do that.

Your response is "Because they manipulate elements and do other supernatural stuff."

That is not answering my question. It does not tell me what different treatment we give them which stops once they perform feats of creation/destruction. It just tells me about some supernatural things they can do.

Which now completely disrupts the reason for the existence of Attack Potency existing since IRL energy gets dispersed upon impact, even punches getting dissipated into heat energy, not so much in fiction.

And the way we get around that is to say "It's not 100% efficient, but we know that it's close enough (iirc around 60-90%) for it to make a fine estimate".

I am suggesting that you use that argument, instead of DDM's one of "It's 100% efficient."

It feels like you're arguing with me as if I agree with Wokistan, when in reality I just agree with DT's retort instead of DDM's.

 

[KLOL506]

The fact that they manipulate elements or other supernatural phenomena?

You say "We treat them as physics-defying until they perform feats of creation/destruction/etc."

I asked how we treat them as physics-defying until they do that.

Your response is "Because they manipulate elements and do other supernatural stuff."

That is not answering my question. It does not tell me what different treatment we give them which stops once they perform feats of creation/destruction. It just tells me about some supernatural things they can do.

Telekinetically manipulating elements or fashioning universe-destroying energy blasts (Or focusing that power into your fists) out of an energy source is not realistic by any margin.

Which now completely disrupts the reason for the existence of Attack Potency existing since IRL energy gets dispersed upon impact, even punches getting dissipated into heat energy, not so much in fiction.

And the way we get around that is to say "It's not 100% efficient, but we know that it's close enough (iirc around 60-90%) for it to make a fine estimate".

Again, why would we assume such a value to begin with when the parasitic loss happens mostly within the internals of a machine and not within the energy source before it gets out? Also with regards to leaking auras they can easily be explained as not having great enough control on the energy source and letting it control you instead and letting it harm you further, with people having full mastery over said energy source having no leaking problem in the first place. That and not all auras are the same, some may just be non-lethal after-effects.

I am suggesting that you use that argument, instead of DDM's one of "It's 100% efficient."

DDM has said he didn't fully form his argument and has a lot more to weigh in on it, Gilver will respond later as well.

It feels like you're arguing with me as if I agree with Wokistan, when in reality I just agree with DT's retort instead of DDM's.

Then ya should've just stated it from the get-go.

 

[Agnaa]

Telekinetically manipulating elements or fashioning universe-destroying energy blasts (Or focusing that power into your fists) out of an energy source is not realistic by any margin.

Again, I asked in which ways we treat them as physics defying until they perform feats of creation-destruction. Instead, your answer involves saying a feat of destruction and saying that it's unrealistic. That is not an answer, and it's a useless point to make since I agree that fiction is often unrealistic.

Again, why would we assume such a value to begin with when the parasitic loss happens mostly within the internals of a machine and not within the energy source before it gets out?

We wouldn't assume a specific value. I'm not the one assuming a value here, you are by assuming 100%. I'm just saying "We don't know, so don't say that it's 100%".

Then ya should've just stated it from the get-go.

I did. Twice, even.

(For anything I didn't respond to, it'd because I didn't have much more to say than "Okay then" or "Cool" or "I guess so")

 

[KLOL506]

Telekinetically manipulating elements or fashioning universe-destroying energy blasts (Or focusing that power into your fists) out of an energy source is not realistic by any margin.

Again, I asked in which ways we treat them as physics defying until they perform feats of creation-destruction. Instead, your answer involves saying a feat of destruction and saying that it's unrealistic. That is not an answer, and it's a useless point to make since I agree that fiction is often unrealistic.

The fact that there's no way for parasitic power loss to ever take place on the energy source coursing through the body right upon the moment of impact unless there's explicit descriptions of them being unable to control their power due to their insufficient training on the energy source.

Again, why would we assume such a value to begin with when the parasitic loss happens mostly within the internals of a machine and not within the energy source before it gets out?

We wouldn't assume a specific value. I'm not the one assuming a value here, you are by assuming 100%. I'm just saying "We don't know, so don't say that it's 100%".

Actually this makes me question, suppose an attack is calc'd to cause a certain destruction and we assume the final attack to be operating at the less-than-100% efficiency like you say. Wouldn't that mean that the actual power value in the body would be higher than what the attack is calculated to be?

Even more so, what's the point of efficiency when we don't calc the energy at the source, but at the point of destruction or creation?

Then ya should've just stated it from the get-go.

I did. Twice, even.

Ah. My bad.

 

[Agnaa]

The fact that there's no way for parasitic power loss to ever take place on the energy source coursing through the body right upon the moment of impact unless there's explicit descriptions of them being unable to control their power due to their insufficient training on the energy source.

This seems to be providing justification for a policy you're proposing, rather than describing the effects of a policy we already have, but I'll bite regardless.

You say that's "a fact" but it reads as more of an assertion to me. Parasitic power loss could happen when the energy's coursing through the body if the process of energy coursing through the body has loss.

Actually this makes me question, suppose an attack is calc'd to cause a certain destruction and we assume the final attack to be operating at the less-than-100% efficiency like you say. Wouldn't that mean that the actual power value in the body would be higher than what the attack is calculated to be?

Even more so, what's the point of efficiency when we don't calc the energy at the source, but at the point of destruction or creation?

Efficiency is relevant if different attacks/techniques have different levels of efficiency. Which is why I'm fine with assuming it's not relevant unless they have outstanding expertise/failure in certain techniques, or if they're performing an especially powerful attack.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll admit I jumped the gun and was hasty when I said "100% Energy efficiency", habit of mine when I try to debate right before RL work shift. It shouldn't be the standard assumption that simply having it makes it assumed. Though It should still be relatively high and pretty much higher than any tool general used for energy conversion transfer technologies.

Though, I also agree that mastering =/= perfecting it, but I disagree with perfecting it =/= 100% efficiency given the definition of perfect. If they have limits to what they can translate it too or sometimes get reckless with their powers, then that all just means their control isn't perfect.

I don't actually think or no of examples at the top of my hand where someone actually does have 100% perfect Ki Control and what not and would agree with DT's statement about there being "some energy loss, but not enough to drop a tier." The only hypothetical characters who actually have 100% efficiency would actually be religious figures, or "100% efficiency" would otherwise be something on the list of "Implied abilities" that DT made a long time ago when describing progenitor/creator gods. Which IRL that's a common standard for religious figures, but not good practice to assume all creator gods in fiction have them unless specifically stated otherwise.

Also, I never liked the word "Scientifically impossible" as opposed to dubiously possible. Mass-Energy conversion is something that's only dubiously possible, but it's something we calc specifically for Mass-Energy feats that are specifically stated. Not a good example for UES scaling given it's a suicide attack, but Galbatorix does have the ability to literally mass-energy convert his entire body and perform a nuclear explosion; which sounds close enough to the 100% efficiency. But it's dubiously possible for any form of energy to get transformed/converted into other forms of energy "Potential energy to kinetic energy and then back" or converting thermal energy into overpressure energy, but it's just often times very difficult and no one has ever invented a 100% efficiency engine. I don't want to say it's impossible to make something, but I will definitely say I don't think any human would ever learn to invent something like that.

But still, I'll retract the "100% efficiency" statement specifically and basically concede to what DT said regarding it more so.

 

[KLOL506]

The fact that there's no way for parasitic power loss to ever take place on the energy source coursing through the body right upon the moment of impact unless there's explicit descriptions of them being unable to control their power due to their insufficient training on the energy source.

This seems to be providing justification for a policy you're proposing, rather than describing the effects of a policy we already have, but I'll bite regardless.

Not really, no. Not proposing any policies here, just pointing a few things out.

The energy loss would make sense for machinery due to heat and friction of parts which it can't use to its maximum and ultimately has no control over. But with a fictional energy source that can be manipulated and controlled to great degrees, full mastery over them generally allows the wielder to easily retain almost all of that energy with little to no loss. One could argue that the aura that might be emitted is not significant enough to to cause any drastic changes to the energy value of the feats the character may perform.

You say that's "a fact" but it reads as more of an assertion to me. Parasitic power loss could happen when the energy's coursing through the body if the process of energy coursing through the body has loss.

Only way it could have loss is if the character is shown to have little to no control over it, which is a fairly common trait in fiction when the character has little to no training or is recklessly using the power for some self-gain and the like.

Actually this makes me question, suppose an attack is calc'd to cause a certain destruction and we assume the final attack to be operating at the less-than-100% efficiency like you say. Wouldn't that mean that the actual power value in the body would be higher than what the attack is calculated to be?

Even more so, what's the point of efficiency when we don't calc the energy at the source, but at the point of destruction or creation?

Efficiency is relevant if different attacks/techniques have different levels of efficiency. Which is why I'm fine with assuming it's not relevant unless they have outstanding expertise/failure in certain techniques, or if they're performing an especially powerful attack.

Pretty sure overtly powerful attacks are generally supposed to not scale to base level stats anyway, but well above them.

Lower level attacks could also be just the character holding back or not using the entire reserve of power from the get-go because they don't have that big of a reserve to begin with.

 

[Agnaa]

The energy loss would make sense for machinery due to heat and friction of parts which it can't use to its maximum and ultimately has no control over. But with a fictional energy source that can be manipulated and controlled to great degrees, full mastery over them generally allows the wielder to easily retain almost all of that energy with little to no loss. One could argue that the aura that might be emitted is not significant enough to to cause any drastic changes to the energy value of the feats the character may perform.

Only way it could have loss is if the character is shown to have little to no control over it, which is a fairly common trait in fiction when the character has little to no training or is recklessly using the power for some self-gain and the like.

I've repeatedly disagreed with this and given reasons. Don't feel like responding to it again.

Lower level attacks could also be just the character holding back or not using the entire reserve of power from the get-go because they don't have that big of a reserve to begin with.

I wasn't talking about weaker attacks, I was talking about techniques/spell schools that they're less proficient in.

 

[KLOL506]

I'll admit I jumped the gun and was hasty when I said "100% Energy efficiency", habit of mine when I try to debate right before RL work shift. It shouldn't be the standard assumption that simply having it makes it assumed. Though It should still be relatively high and pretty much higher than any tool general used for energy conversion transfer technologies.

Though, I also agree that mastering =/= perfecting it, but I disagree with perfecting it =/= 100% efficiency given the definition of perfect. If they have limits to what they can translate it too or sometimes get reckless with their powers, then that all just means their control isn't perfect.

Agree with the "perfecting" part. Also exactly what I just stated, characters getting too reckless with their powers have a tendency of wearing themselves out faster and not keeping their cool which can hamper their ability to use said energy source properly.

Though if we were to go below 100% efficiency, I'd suggest there be no set value for this, since such power sources can maintain such energy values far better than anything real-life machines can do, so much so that at that point it would make a negligible or no difference to the power output of the attack.

I don't actually think or no of examples at the top of my hand where someone actually does have 100% perfect Ki Control and what not and would agree with DT's statement about there being "some energy loss, but not enough to drop a tier." The only hypothetical characters who actually have 100% efficiency would actually be religious figures, or "100% efficiency" would otherwise be something on the list of "Implied abilities" that DT made a long time ago when describing progenitor/creator gods. Which IRL that's a common standard for religious figures, but not good practice to assume all creator gods in fiction have them unless specifically stated otherwise.

DT did say this (The bolded parts):

Pretty sure Wokistan is wrong about site precedence. We never expected all spells of a character to separately be proven to approximately scale to the AP of spells with lesser or equal energy requirements.
Would be kinda ridiculous to do so tbh. Each magic caster would basically need a separate tier for every spell they ever used.

In general, while efficiency is a factor to account for, there are places where it makes sense and places where not. Every spell has an efficiency loss, but would two basic spells really have vastly different efficiency? It's not just net energy loss, but comparable energy loss we are talking about here. If we take the lightbulb analogy, then a fireball spell vs a water spell from the same caster is essentially like using two lightbulbs of the same manufacturer. It would be weird for one to have orders of magnitude worse efficiency.

Exceptions may exist if there are good arguments for it, such as a reason for vastly different efficiency, but generally I think a 30MP spell should scale to a 20MP spell from the same caster.

Nah, different skill in different techniques would be a valid reason for me.

Like, I wouldn't expect Aang at the point where he only knows the water whip technique to have as powerful water bending as he has air bending. However, once he has mastered both air and water bending they probably are comparable in power.

Which means to say the difference would be not as drastic as made out to be, that the values shouldn't be that far off from each other. Assuming that the parity is reached between the training of the two types.

Also, I never liked the word "Scientifically impossible" as opposed to dubiously possible. Mass-Energy conversion is something that's only dubiously possible, but it's something we calc specifically for Mass-Energy feats that are specifically stated. Not a good example for UES scaling given it's a suicide attack, but Galbatorix does have the ability to literally mass-energy convert his entire body and perform a nuclear explosion; which sounds close enough to the 100% efficiency. But it's dubiously possible for any form of energy to get transformed/converted into other forms of energy "Potential energy to kinetic energy and then back" or converting thermal energy into overpressure energy, but it's just often times very difficult and no one has ever invented a 100% efficiency engine. I don't want to say it's impossible to make something, but I will definitely say I don't think any human would ever learn to invent something like that.

Also one of the main gripes I held with comparing IRL efficiency values to fictional energy sources that aren't imposed to such restrictions.

 

[KLOL506]

The energy loss would make sense for machinery due to heat and friction of parts which it can't use to its maximum and ultimately has no control over. But with a fictional energy source that can be manipulated and controlled to great degrees, full mastery over them generally allows the wielder to easily retain almost all of that energy with little to no loss. One could argue that the aura that might be emitted is not significant enough to to cause any drastic changes to the energy value of the feats the character may perform.

Only way it could have loss is if the character is shown to have little to no control over it, which is a fairly common trait in fiction when the character has little to no training or is recklessly using the power for some self-gain and the like.

I've repeatedly disagreed with this and given reasons. Don't feel like responding to it again.

I've already replied back as to why your disagreements don't make sense but I feel like we're not gonna agree with one another on this so I'll just keep it at that.

Lower level attacks could also be just the character holding back or not using the entire reserve of power from the get-go because they don't have that big of a reserve to begin with.

I wasn't talking about weaker attacks, I was talking about techniques/spell schools that they're less proficient in.

Well if they're less proficient in attacks different from their natural affinity then sure, it wouldn't scale to their normal natural affinity attacks by default unless they train that aspect to that level.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Broadly speaking, I think these terms are too lenient. When looking for a default standard, I would think we would first want to see what's up with reality or the closest analogue. This is talking about magic, which doesn't exist, so there's not really a version of that there, but what we do have is all sorts of systems of energy transfer, and oh boy does that not match up with this. I really don't like the idea of using energy cost as a method of scaling if we're going to make the real life comparison, because that just eliminates the entire idea of different usages of energy having different amounts of efficiency, which is just ridiculous. There's the obvious things, like how it'll take a lot less energy to kill a person using electricity than it will with something like blunt force because electricity can interfere with nerves easily, or how it may be easier to destroy an object with heat than force if it has a low specific heat or much harder if the specific heat is higher, or so on. Tiering a character based on how much energy they use up to do something is rather misleading, because that isn't necessarily the quantity that actually impacts the world. If I'm a terrible electrician and I make a very inefficient circuit and I hook it up to a reader, that reader isn't going to give the "tier" of what I put into it, because a lot more things than that impact output. If we're going to try and equate something to reality, we shouldn't make the default assumption that a difference in efficiency of radically different processes cannot be in effect, because that would be denying reality itself.

From what I understand you seem to be imposing energy conservation principles from irl physics onto energy systems in supernatural setting.

I have no idea how you came up with this idea, but it's so skewed and bizzare.
Energy conversion in fiction isn't something as complex as solar-electric or hydroelectric , or wind-electric etc kinds of conversion in real life. Irl conversions need great researches to even begin calculating their efficiency.

Hell even something relatively simple as two pulley systems or 2 block systems need demanding brain power and time to calculate basic KE-PE energy conversions, and that's for ideal systems.. the moment you start introducing mass of components, frictions between contact surfaces, bizarre angles of contact and orientation, even these simple problems become a headache for a average engineering student.
Then when you get into complex machines systems with various types and numbers of components of differing materials, substances and energy types etc.. and then it becomes some next level stuff, basically something that would require an army of scientists and engineers irl to even start analyzing such problems, involving concepts such as thermochemistry/dynamics, all mechanical, electrical, material sciences etc, stuff that's enough to turn a sane man into a mental patient.

Why do you expect game designers, mangakas, screenplay writers and comic artists to behold to this? 99.9% of those peeps don't even know such harsh realities of studying for engineering i.e existence of such phenomenon and factors in real life. Why would you expect some simple energy system created by for simple stuff like " hahaha magic spell go " to take into account such factors?
Friction, heat dissipation etc only applies to real life. In fiction overall AP/DC/SS are same as input magic.

And about input=/=output on factors of nature of victims is also completely unnecessary. Like we don't really care if paper is easier to incinerate compared to metal or electric flows smoother inside super-conductors.
Just because electric spell can kill a human easily via nervous attack compared to fire ball incinerating a human body, shouldn't mean that we start seperating both of their AP if they both had similar input magic. If we start doing that it's just nitpicking.
I do realise not every nature of magic is same.
For example I spent 50 MP on a fire spell and 50 MP on a petrification or a time spell, it doesn't mean they all have same AP, hell cuz AP wouldn't even apply to petrification or time spell. But we have to trust members and average Joe to understand situations and context on their own. We have intuitive sense of how to evaluate such cases, we don't mistake haxxy stuff with AP. We don't need to nitpick it for them on this CRT or on the page. That's more harm than good. A lot of harm that will just frustrate the people to just throw up their hands and stop giving shit of something so convoluted for something as simple as a fireball spell.

Of course, maybe you don't agree with the idea of trying to get some sort of "closest to reality" sort of standard for a baseline, in which case I'd say that I'm not even really sure that this holds true over media. Now, full disclosure, I don't really care about anime. It's entirely possible that this sort of perfect equivalence is super common in anime and I just don't know about it. Feel free to bring it up, I'm just admitting a blind spot here. As far as I'm aware, the places you most commonly see these explicit resource costs in are games, both of the tabletop and video variety, and I don't think this idea of everything having the same efficiency really exists.

From a gameplay perspective, I'd say it ends up going against what seem to be widespread game design philosophies. Avoiding straight upgrades often seems to be a priority in game design, which seems to result in high cost stuff often being less efficient in terms of a cost to damage ratio, or higher cost stuff having that higher cost due to effects which are more esoteric. It's also a way to make upgrades more exciting than just bigger number, and keep difficulty throughout the game by not just having options that are objectively superior to others. I can't really think of anything where the only variation you have in a system like this is just straight power, and especially not one that has some sort of linear scaling between input and output. Games tend to add complexity as things move forwards, and that is not something that one does just by adding a few zeroes at the end of every number all the way through. Furthermore, efficiency itself is often of consideration for these sorts of things, and that doesn't really work if everything with the same input must have a similar output. This idea of just pretending that different applications of energy cannot be of different efficiency levels and that this is apparently widespread in media is a rather far out one, especially when the page isn't even really going to elaborate on how this is supposedly common enough to be elevated to a standard similar to the restrictions on calculations that would work with real life physics but don't work

A simple phrase:- gameplay may not reflect reality/lore of a verse accurately.

For example in God of War, your weapons and magic become stronger and/or quirkier with each upgrade, you may even be able further charge said attacks during combat, it does give a good indication of power increase w.r.t to weapon upgrade cost and magic consumption, but I wouldn't literally try to use those gameplay statistics and apply directly over into lore.
Only basic things I need to know are :-
1)if I charge/upgrade an attack it gives more boom generally(for example Zeus Bolt in GoW1),
2) while in other cases it may have other extra effects alongside bigger boom(one example is Cronos Rage upgrade has more range, time duration, damage, extra arks/beams, multihit and explosion at end)
3) In rare cases of pure hax like petrification or time magic it's got nothing to do with damage, so upgrades/charge don't even change those values, cuz they don't exist.

All this is even tho everything is upgraded from red orbs and all attacks use more magic for charges, no matter what gameplay would have you believe orbs as they are shown in gameplay don't exist in lore, let alone red orbs ; its just symbolic of Kratos being able to absorb powers/magic/life to become more stronger/faster/haxxed and heal/refill magic. Gameplay shows different bars of magics but in lore is just a single general pool of magic.

Basically stuff in verse is more simpler than gameplay would have you believe.

While I may now jackshit about Tabletop RPG games, I can bet they follow same logic despite all those guides and rulebooks or info cards would have you believe. I doubt all those specific numbers and decimals for each and every effect of each and every attacks of which probably exist a thousands, actually one to one apply to real lore of games. Its more indicative and thus mainly useful for observing a general trend and pattern of various phenomenon of power systems.

We've gone over how I dislike the limited criteria, so no point in retreading that.

This bit about needing to prove that things scale to one another is weird to include. It's something I agree with, but it's also something that I feel works a lot better as an argument against this sort of thing. If you've already got proof that someone's weird stuff scales to their punching power or whatever, then I'm not sure exactly what sort of purpose it serves to try and invent some explanation outside the work itself. It's also weird because this sort of proof wasn't required on the previous level, so what about this one in particular suddenly necessitates the elevated standard?

The second sentence doesn't really seem all that related to the first part, to be honest. I'm not sure how simply using a similar power source would immediately serve as proof of very different things being of comparable levels, especially when the whole point of having a source is that it's a repository that you'll take what you need from as opposed to just dumping the whole thing at once. Even if we are to assume that they just share the criteria from the limited energy systems and that the Wokbros got too cocky, it doesn't even seem to meet them. This just mentions needing to have the same highest order source and not even needing similar amounts of input. It seems inconsistent with itself. You get the same problem as the first one did too with the whole "not every use of a similar source is the same" but I'm not going to go through that again.
TL;DR
Mostly similar issues to Limited Energy Systems, seems a little redundant with the whole "in order to be proven to scale, you must have proof you scale," doesn't even really outline what this proof should look like which is the only real point I could see to something like that, also seems inconsistent with itself, site precedent, and reality on how power sources work.

Most of what i said above applies here too. Also there's also another factor of magical potency or saying simply quality or nature.
20 MP of magic X maybe more potent then say 20 MP of magic Y, thus making hax powered by Magic X have more potency or resistance negation or range or duration or AoE or speed or any number of extra effects or all of them at same time.
But we already account for that in actual verse CRTs, since each verse and inside verse energy relations are unique.
On this page we are mostly reminding or educating regualar joe to be wary and mindful of such phenomenon while evaluating their favorite media.
On specifics of how to detect and evaluate such stuff is something each verse and CRT has to do for themselves. We can't handhold them with a general page for all, its impossible.

To summarize the overall points, I don't think that these standards match up with either the real world or fictional trends on a widespread enough scale that they should be assumed to be the default rather than just proven on an individual level. I believe this attempt at standardizing something incredibly nonstandard and universe specific is ultimately fruitless at best, and misleading at worst. I think what would be much more useful would be just outlining what sort of things can serve as proof of scaling rather than trying to force everything into some specific system, and to also not assume that there is never any variance in efficiency and that input is the literal only factor determining output.

That is missing the entire point of page. It doesn't exist to standardize anything at all.

Its sole purpose is :-
To remind or educate on how to detect and analyse various energy types you may encounter in various fictions via some starter pack of ideas or commonly appearing tropes accross popular fictions.

Its nothing but a guide for help, not a rulebook to adhere to.

As for input/output/efficiency, such an elaboration isn't needed on page. Because we can handle it on CRTs, due to being a very case to case basis thing.... like such stuff you have to evaluate extensively on a singular character level even in a verse which has only single and simple energy system. Because such factors are more determined by personality, circumstances and story of a character.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Also I agree with DT.

Thanks Klol, Hellbeast and DDM for holding out for me while I was giving exams. A few more days and my exam schedule will be over

 

[KLOL506]

Gilver summed this up better than I ever could've in 50 lifetimes. Thanks.

 

[Antvasima]

Agnaa also made good arguments above. Thank you for helping out.

I think that the consensus here seems to be to agree with DontTalk's assessment that there is going to be energy loss, but seldom enough to drop a tier then. Is that an accurate understanding, and have we reached a sufficient conclusion to this discussion to apply the agreed upon revisions?

 

[KLOL506]

Agnaa also made good arguments above. Thank you for helping out.

I think that the consensus here seems to be to agree with DontTalk's assessment that there is going to be energy loss, but seldom enough to drop a tier then.

Is that an accurate understanding, and have we reached a sufficient conclusion to this discussion to apply the agreed upon revisions?

When DT made his argument regarding energy loss, other factors taken into account were not dealt with, like how energy sources are leagues more efficient than what IRL machinery can pull off based on the reasonings DDM and Gilver gave to counter Agnaa's points, so at the end, it the energy values wouldn't even come close to that, if anything the energy loss would be negligible to not even matter.

 

[Antoniofer]

Is that an accurate understanding, and have we reached a sufficient conclusion to this discussion to apply the agreed upon revisions?

I believe one could wait for Wok to make a comment about the counter from above, although considering the time has passed, don't think he is interested in commenting again.

Plus, you people were gathering examples for the different types of UE.

 

[KLOL506]

I believe one could wait for Wok to make a comment about the counter from above, although considering the time has passed, don't think he is interested in commenting again.

Plus, you people were gathering examples for the different types of UE.

Not Universal Energy Source (Because some of the examples are already in the draft), but examples for Limited Energy Systems and Non-Physical Energy Systems that DDM and DontTalk promoted. Three types exist now. Limited, Non-Physical and Universal.

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached any conclusions here that can be applied, or does anything still need to be discussed here?

 

[KLOL506]

So have you reached any conclusions here that can be applied, or does anything still need to be discussed here?

I don't think there's anything else left to discuss here other than make the page, and hunt for examples of the other two energy source types to then add to the page.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine then, as long as there is a staff consensus regarding this issue.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay. That is probably fine then, as long as there is a staff consensus regarding this issue.

Well, there's already a list of which staff members agreed to the creation of a page and which staff members disagree to DontTalk's new draft.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, there's already a list of which staff members agreed to the creation of a page and which staff members disagree to DontTalk's new draft.

Okay. Can you quote (and possibly update it) please then?

 

[KLOL506]

The following staff agree to a page being made on the standards:

Agree: ByAsura, Colonel_Krukov (Agreed to new draft by DontTalk as well), DarkDragonMedeus (Also agreed to new draft by DontTalk), KingTempest (Also agreed to new draft by DontTalk), Theglassman12 (He also had no issues with DontTalk's new draft), SamanPatou, Mr. Bambu, Ogbunabali (He unfortunately had to leave the discussion and shortly retired as admin but he agreed with the premise of a page), LordGriffin1000, ElixirBlue, DueDate8898, DarkGrath, Elizhaa, Planck69, DemonGodMitchAubin, Celestial_Pegasus, UchihaSlayer69 (He also agreed to DontTalk's new draft), Shadowbokunohero, Firestorm808 (Also agreed to new draft by DontTalk)

Disagree: AKM sama (Partially, he agreed to two core arguments which have since been already laid in foundation with the new draft as well), Antoniofer (Former staff), Promestein (But she said that she doesn't care anymore at this point, and then sometime later she also retired) and Wokistan

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that the consensus states that this can probably be applied then. My apologies AKM sama and Wokistan.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, all that's needed to do now is make the page, and scour for some examples for the first two types.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, I suppose so. Please keep us updated here.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump.

Who will make the page using DT's draft?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure. Sorry. Help would obviously be appreciated.

 

[KLOL506]

I am not sure. Sorry. Help would obviously be appreciated.

Talked with DDM, said he would later help out.