Undertale MHS Downgrade

[Agnaa]

I'll just give one example that should close this: if I can turn around a car when driving it at speeds of 50 km/h, do I gain Superhuman speeds? Will I be able to dodge the car riding to me at 50 km/h speeds without aim-dodging?

Turning around a car once, no, but if that car can accelerate to 50 km/h in 0.05 seconds, and you can repeatedly cause it to stop and accelerate in the other direction before it moves even half a meter, and this is caused by multiple direct actions of your own rather than a pre-programmed sequence of stopping and starting in the machine, you'd have Superhuman perception speed.

This wouldn't end up scaling to your own personal dodging ability (which we index as reaction speed) since you're not physically moving impressive distances in those times, the machine is. But the unit of you and that machine would.

The point still stands: Toriel uses her own magical fire to cook food for those which are supposed to be used on stovetop.

Yes. While it can reach realistic temperatures, it can also reach unrealistic temperatures, and there's indications that it doesn't actually combust any fuel like real fire does.

Also, those lightnings are of a different color although they are very close, and the color of lightning changes due to the different environment, not just "because". So it would not qualify as well. There is also no cloud seen for it.

I think the colour issue is minor enough to not disqualify it in the face of the positive evidence. No cloud being seen is fine since it comes from off-screen, it's still quite reasonable to believe it comes from an off-screen cloud, or something along those lines.

And one thing I completely forgot! As Discussion Rule says, magical electricity in Undertale acts just like the real one. Which even further consistencizes all of the other arguments.

That's what the discussion rule says, but it's not what the evidence shows. It shows that magical electricity exists, powers the underground, and can be created by converting geothermal power in some likely non-standard process (I don't think Alphys would talk about an ordinary steam powering turbines setup in that way). Other stuff in the game about electricity seems like a bit of a mixed bag. I don't know if we ever see electrical devices like lamps plugged into anything, even when we can see them function, and we never see any power lines or similar infrastructure. Still, the microwave next to the frozen spaghetti is described as unplugged, and we do see wires in the CORE.

I'd take this as showing some degree of similarity, but "acts just like" is overstating things imo. But as I said, I think different facets of magical systems can have differing levels of real-ness, and we don't have to treat them all the same way when they have different evidence.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Turning around a car once, no, but if that car can accelerate to 50 km/h in 0.05 seconds, and you can repeatedly cause it to stop and accelerate in the other direction before it moves even half a meter, and this is caused by multiple direct actions of your own rather than a pre-programmed sequence of stopping and starting in the machine, you'd have Superhuman perception speed.

You are exaggerating what Papyrus has done. He has just turned left and left. Same thing you do in your car, and you can do it with the same speed if you have a good place to do that.

This wouldn't end up scaling to your own personal dodging ability (which we index as reaction speed) since you're not physically moving impressive distances in those times, the machine is. But the unit of you and that machine would.

You still react to this, otherwise you wouldn't be able to turn around.

Yes. While it can reach realistic temperatures, it can also reach unrealistic temperatures, and there's indications that it doesn't actually combust any fuel like real fire does.

Which is, as I said, the implication of Toriel controlling her own fire however she desires. Unless you want to say that Toby, adding tons of details into the game, just forgot about that and it's an inconsistency, lol. Fire users being capable to control the temperature of their own fire, especially the kind and mother-like users doing so to lower the temperature of fire which a child can potentially touch, is not something completely insane and out of mind.

I think the colour issue is minor enough to not disqualify it in the face of the positive evidence.

Argument from belief, lol. This is a very blatant disqualifier for lightning, lightnings should NOT be of different colors. And it's not like every Asriel's attack is colorful, because most of them are just white, so you cannot appeal to that either. So not only it is Immeasurable, it is also not real one, either

No cloud being seen is fine since it comes from off-screen, it's still quite reasonable to believe it comes from an off-screen cloud, or something along those lines.

So you basically just assume there is a cloud? Despite the only thing supporting it being a lightning is just looking like one and the sound (meanwhile many of other Asriel's attack make sounds, lol)?

That's what the discussion rule says, but it's not what the evidence shows. It shows that magical electricity exists, powers the underground, and can be created by converting geothermal power in some likely non-standard process (I don't think Alphys would talk about an ordinary steam powering turbines setup in that way).

Magical electricity powering up Underground, and energy being able to be converted into that, just like any other form of energy, is pretty evident to call electricity the real one.

Other stuff in the game about electricity seems like a bit of a mixed bag. I don't know if we ever see electrical devices like lamps plugged into anything, even when we can see them function, and we never see any power lines or similar infrastructure. Still, the microwave next to the frozen spaghetti is described as unplugged, and we do see wires in the CORE.

That still doesn't disqualify magical electricity behaving exactly as a normal one should, though.

I'd take this as showing some degree of similarity, but "acts just like" is overstating things imo. But as I said, I think different facets of magical systems can have differing levels of real-ness, and we don't have to treat them all the same way when they have different evidence.

Again, this is the case for all of the magic of monsters (bones, fire, electricity, bombs), saying "nah lightning is different" just because you think it should be like that, without any actual evidence of inconsistencies that have not been addressed, while also saying that supporting evidence (statement of thunder) is just a thematic phrase, is just Argument from Belief.

 

[Agnaa]

Argument from belief, lol.

"I think this counter-evidence is outweighed by the positive evidence" is not a fallacy.

So you basically just assume there is a cloud? Despite the only thing supporting it being a lightning is just looking like one and the sound (meanwhile many of other Asriel's attack make sounds, lol)?

It's not because it makes a sound. If it made a squeaky toy sound it wouldn't be supportive evidence. It's because it makes a thunder-esque sound.

And I'm not assuming that there's a cloud. I'm saying that the evidence presented doesn't indicate against there being a cloud.

Not showing a cloud, and showing a cloud being absent, are very different.

That still doesn't disqualify magical electricity behaving exactly as a normal one should, though.

Doing things that real electricity doesn't actually means that it doesn't behave exactly as normal.

Again, this is the case for all of the magic of monsters (bones, fire, electricity, bombs)

If you ignore all the ways that they're unrealistic as just being because of a monster's magic (as you did with the flaws with the fire, electricity, and bombs), then there's literally no way for me to demonstrate that they're not real. Your standard of evidence is flawed.

saying "nah lightning is different" just because you think it should be like that, without any actual evidence of inconsistencies that have not been addressed, while also saying that supporting evidence (statement of thunder) is just a thematic phrase, is just Argument from Belief.

Well it's a good thing my argument's a lot more substantiated than that.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

"I think this counter-evidence is outweighed by the positive evidence" is not a fallacy.

But it isn't, though. All of the positive evidence regarding specifically the lightning was contextualized in a way that it is not evidence long time ago, the arguments about bomb was recently countered by me as well/

It's not because it makes a sound. If it made a squeaky toy sound it wouldn't be supportive evidence. It's because it makes a thunder-esque sound.

Most of Asriel's attacks make away a sound, and just making a thunder and looking like thunder is way less of a property than showing a lightning from cloud with it being heavily implied to cause thunder.

Also, this lightning is 2-B and Immeasurable in speed anyways, so the whole "we have Asriel's lightning" doesn't matter at all, because even if those ratings come from another piece of Asriel's fight, they still exist, thus nullifying it as a counter-argument against Vulkin's lightning.

And I'm not assuming that there's a cloud. I'm saying that the evidence presented doesn't indicate against there being a cloud. Not showing a cloud, and showing a cloud being absent, are very different.

Sure, but not showing it weakens your argument.

Doing things that real electricity doesn't does mean that it doesn't behave exactly as normal, actually.

Just because you don't see the electric plugs does not prove that there are none. There are also locked rooms.
Also, we see no toilets either, but monsters do reference it, so you're simply nitpicking. It's not like the electral plug-ins or wires do not exist, you showed it yourself/

If you ignore all the ways that they're unrealistic as just being because of a monster's magic (as you did with the flaws with the fire, electricity, and bombs), then there's literally no way for me to demonstrate that they're not real. Your standard of evidence is flawed.

No? I prove that they have their real properties, and then justify the showcases of them deviating from the norm as monsters controlling magic. I do not just assume it out of nowhere, I give a reasonable example. If you want to reject, you would just say that Toby is a dumbass and missed such inconsistencies. Is this what you propose?

Well it's a good thing my argument's a lot more substantiated than that.

It isn't. You should go over the bomb, electricity, and fire, and prove that they are never real for you to be correct, otherwise those "flaws" are explained and justified.

Just in case I need to say why they can manipulate and shape their magic...

• Toriel can shape her own fire into fire balls and direct them in any way she wants, same as Asgore;
• Asgore can also change the magical properties of his trident, making them "blue" and "orange";
• Papyrus can shape his bones into letters, directing them at Frisk;
• Napstablook can make "dapper blook" hat out of his magical tears, changing their shape and redirecting them if you don't react to the dapper blook well;
• Monsters being stated to control their magic to generate bullet-patterns.

 

[Agnaa]

If you want to reject, you would just say that Toby is a dumbass and missed such inconsistencies. Is this what you propose?

No, I propose that they're meant to be different at times. They're creating magical fire and magical electricity, they're not creating real fire and electricity with magic. They have some similarities, but also some differences, which occasionally lead to real values not being able to be assumed.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

No, I propose that they're meant to be different at times. They're creating magical fire and magical electricity, they're not creating real fire and electricity with magic.

Where did I say these were real? Never said that. They're very clearly magical as stated and, like, very obvious, as they don't have natural origin. The premise was that they're shown their irl properties.

They have some similarities, but also some differences, which occasionally lead to real values not being able to be assumed.

Those "differences" are actually contradictions, which can only be explained by the monsters manipulating & shaping their magic, as they can clearly do.

• Toriel can shape her own fire into fire balls and direct them in any way she wants, same as Asgore;
• Asgore can also change the magical properties of his trident, making them "blue" and "orange";
• Papyrus can shape his bones into letters, directing them at Frisk;
• Napstablook can make "dapper blook" hat out of his magical tears, changing their shape and redirecting them if you don't react to the dapper blook well;
• Monsters being stated to control their magic to generate bullet-patterns.

Otherwise, you'll just say that the game is massively inconsistent and contradicts itself in a short timeframe.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

No, I propose that they're meant to be different at times. They're creating magical fire and magical electricity, they're not creating real fire and electricity with magic.

Where did I say these were real? Never said that. They're very clearly magical as stated and, like, very obvious, as they don't have natural origin. The premise was that they're shown their irl properties.

Actually, I misread what you said, so my response to it is a bit poorly worded. I'll correct it: they have magical origin, hence why they're magical, but in everything else they are natural. Other points are addressed in my post above.

 

[Agnaa]

Those "differences" are actually contradictions, which can only be explained by the monsters manipulating & shaping their magic, as they can clearly do.

Otherwise, you'll just say that the game is massively inconsistent and contradicts itself in a short timeframe.

It's not contradictory for fire to have varying temperatures, or to have a magical fire that doesn't combust a fuel, or for there to be an unrealistic magical bomb that explodes in four directions, or for a character to fire tiny cartoonish bolts from a small cloud. It's just unrealistic.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

It's not contradictory for fire to have varying temperatures, or to have a magical fire that doesn't combust a fuel

It is contradictory for fire being able to cook food at one point, and being unable to burn at another. It is either a contradiction or Toriel controls her own fire.

or for there to be an unrealistic magical bomb that explodes in four directions, or for a character to fire tiny cartoonish bolts from a small cloud.

• Toriel can shape her own fire into fire balls and direct them in any way she wants, same as Asgore;
• Asgore can also change the magical properties of his trident, making them "blue" and "orange";
• Papyrus can shape his bones into letters, directing them at Frisk;
• Napstablook can make "dapper blook" hat out of his magical tears, changing their shape and redirecting them if you don't react to the dapper blook well;
• Monsters being stated to control their magic to generate bullet-patterns.

It's just unrealistic.

It's just contextualized.

 

[Agnaa]

It is contradictory for fire being able to cook food at one point, and being unable to burn at another. It is either a contradiction or Toriel controls her own fire.

Fun Fact: In real life, fire has varying temperatures based on the fuel and oxygen present. It being able to vary isn't a contradiction, and it's only unrealistic since it gets cool enough to be warm to the touch.

I don't know why you're posting stuff about monsters having variable attacks, especially in response to the part of my post you quoted.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Fun Fact: In real life, fire has varying temperatures based on the fuel and oxygen present. It being able to vary isn't a contradiction, and it's only unrealistic since it gets cool enough to be warm to the touch.

Are you implying that in oven there is low oxygen? It would also never fall to the point it does not even burn, lol. This is not a situation we have here at all, sorry.

I don't know why you're posting stuff about monsters having variable attacks, especially in response to the part of my post you quoted.

This is "stuff" about monsters clearly being able to shape their magic, not having variable attacks.

 

[Agnaa]

Are you implying that in oven there is low oxygen? It would also never fall to the point it does not even burn, lol. This is not a situation we have here at all, sorry.

I was thinking more from the fuel angle; although the absence of residue associated with a realistic source makes some sort of ethereal magic the only possible source for that.

This is "stuff" about monsters clearly being able to shape their magic, not having variable attacks.

I've responded to this point multiple times. Here, here, and here.

I never argued that monsters lack control over their magical attacks, so showing examples of them doing so proves nothing.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here so far?

 

[StrymULTRA]

What are the conclusions here so far?

I'll probably reply to Agnaa's points in these days, as while I am generally on hiatus, I do still feel a need to reply here, but for now only @LephyrTheRevanchist actually gave an input and he seems to be, neutral?

Same with @LordGriffin1000, he also said that he'd wants to read the counter-arguments first.

Although I have some stuff that could make at least a "likely/possibly MHS+", as some points made from him are kinda disingeneous.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for your summary.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I'll probably reply to Agnaa's points in these days, as while I am generally on hiatus, I do still feel a need to reply here, but for now only @LephyrTheRevanchist actually gave an input and he seems to be, neutral?

I personally will always hold that these speeds are warranted

 

[StrymULTRA]

Misread, MB there.

Anyway, as I said, I'll reply in few days.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If we're wanting input currently, I would still say I find Agnaa's points to be more compelling than the defense, although in stating this I do not wish to skip Strym's input. This is a matter that has been brought up ostensibly often, not hearing from him would be a misstep. If he wants a couple days, we ought not FRA train one way or the other before then.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok so, I'll just announce in advance that I have dropped in a hiatus from this wiki, so getting here so soon is not something I wish to do, really. I generally stopped to give a damn, but I think that my input as a last, desperate attempt while trying to explain in the clearest and most convincing way I can is something worthy a shot. Then if staff decides to gang up on me with FRA trains then it's another thing that I'd not be surprised of, given how rotten this wiki is if Staff decides to hate a verse enough.

Anyway, skimming through the thread, I think that Agnaa is being super strict for the sake of being so.

I do wanna give priority to the verse's intentions first before anything else about scientific explanations, as a (very overused) example, we do not say that everything that SoL or above is High Universal if the potrayal of the verse is clearly not having infinite power at every single movement through simply dodging a beam or travelling interstellar distances, and so we should do the same here. You see a cloud that shoots lightning, and that enough tells me that the intent is very clear, we shouldn't just pretend that it does not exist simply because of some scientific stuff that only serves to unneccessairly increase the scrutinity, not going to lie.

Stuff like size is definitely not that much relevant here in my opinion, as most of the time characters get MHS+ through simply shooting lightning from their hands and through enough comparison with lightning, that gets accepted here, if my memory serves right, and I think that here is a similar situation.

The bomb thing is genuinely a massive false equivalence as we do see realistic bombs before, and if anything, it just means that characters are capable of shaping differently attacks of the same element. Examples are Toriel's fire and Pyrope's, which are still fire but shaped differently (with the former showing to behave like actual fire in a newsletter, remember), Sans' and Papyrus' bones (a more direct comparison is here, and you can see that Papyrus can also give different forms to his bones in the same attack), and the aforementioned Asriel and Vulkin's (and saying that Asriel's lightning being realistic and thus needs to be aimdodged is completely dishonest, as if you wanna argue that then you're genuinely saying that his attacks are all Immeasurable except those, which is completely nonsense, as if one of his attacks is Immeasurable, then all of them are; thus Asriel stuff is objectively not a disqualifier, unless you plan to get rid of that too, as these attacks would simply scale above baseline Immeasurable speed). You do seem to already accept that being made of magic is not a disqualifier, so I am not going to bother to cover that.

The "characters can manipulate attacks so it disqualifies them from going at irl speeds" is also completely dishonest and not an argument done in good faith like at all, either. Like, what exactly says that they'd make the attacks slower? We do see that all the fire attacks do harm Frisk despite the latter at their weakest barely taking damage from an explosion that's over 9000 °F (it's in their profile in the Resistance section, if you wanna check). I think that monsters making attacks weaker on purpose is something that requires evidence that you simply cannot prove, and Occam's razor says that they must go at the fastest/strongest, simply because there's no evidence of them going easy on Frisk (and before you mention Toriel, she's the only one who actually does it, as all the other monsters do actually try to kill Frisk and get their SOUL, with the reason being pretty blatant, to get out of the Underground).

AKA I do not buy the arguments made against MHS+ a single bit, they seem to ignore context most of the time and attempt to be super strict in order to make the verse super slow just because. If you wanna to refute Undertale being MHS+, you have to refute a lot of other stuff first, because as for now, the thing is pretty backed up, and the discussion rule should stay as it is right now.

I'd like to hear the input of the other staff members who commented here (aka @Antvasima, @LordGriffin1000, @LephyrTheRevanchist, @Propellus, @Planck69 and @DarkDragonMedeus), also because I do not oppose a "likely/possibly" here either, but I'd prefer a straight MHS+ rating to be fair.

 

[Agnaa]

Anyway, skimming through the thread, I think that Agnaa is being super strict for the sake of being so.

I'm "strict" because I want our ratings to stand up to scrutiny, instead of being flimsy. I put "strict" in scare quotes since I think it's more just trying to keep in mind reality, general trends in fiction, and the piece of fiction itself.

I do wanna give priority to the verse's intentions first before anything else about scientific explanations, as a (very overused) example, we do not say that everything that SoL or above is High Universal if the potrayal of the verse is clearly not having infinite power at every single movement through simply dodging a beam or travelling interstellar distances, and so we should do the same here. You see a cloud that shoots lightning, and that enough tells me that the intent is very clear, we shouldn't just pretend that it does not exist simply because of some scientific stuff that only serves to unneccessairly increase the scrutinity, not going to lie.

Your example with SoL and above is a case of assuming the fiction aligns with reality until it demonstrates otherwise. I like this principle. Yet the case you're going with the lightning here is assuming the fiction aligns with reality despite only putting up the thinnest veneer of something quasi-realistic. You're not actually holding a consistent principle between those two cases. Can you not see that? In the first case reality says High 3-A, but the fiction contradicts that by being unrealistic. In the second case reality says MHS+, and you accept that despite the fiction being unrealistic.

Stuff like size is definitely not that much relevant here in my opinion, as most of the time characters get MHS+ through simply shooting lightning from their hands and through enough comparison with lightning, that gets accepted here, if my memory serves right, and I think that here is a similar situation.

Notice the bolded part, the other examples you're thinking of have more support despite that anti-feat. I don't know if I was this clear, but if there was even one very good statement of the lightning being real, such as an NPC having text that pops up after fighting Vulkin saying "Did you hear that lightning? Wow, it really rattled my bones." I would be fine with MHS+ (as it would be an entity establishing real properties, those being sound and light at noteworthy distances; the word "lightning" being in some bio wouldn't meet that bar in the same way). But I find the positive evidence (the unrealistic but thematically matching visuals, the exclamation of "thunder!" due to its general misuse in fiction, and the occasional real effects of other forms of magic) all very weak.

The bomb thing is genuinely a massive false equivalence as we do see realistic bombs before

How is it a false equivalence? My argument was "One other magic attack being real (Toriel's fire) doesn't make all magic attacks real. Just like how one magic attack being fake (Mettaton's bombs) doesn't make all magic attacks fake." It does not matter if other bombs are realistic for the point being made, which is that isolated examples in other categories do not contaminate everything else to the same level of realism.

and if anything, it just means that characters are capable of shaping differently attacks of the same element. Examples are Toriel's fire and Pyrope's, which are still fire but shaped differently (with the former showing to behave like actual fire in a newsletter, remember), Sans' and Papyrus' bones (a more direct comparison is here, and you can see that Papyrus can also give different forms to his bones in the same attack)

I've responded to "other attacks can be manipulated so we should assume real values despite this one acting unrealistically" here, here, and here.

and the aforementioned Asriel and Vulkin's (and saying that Asriel's lightning being realistic and thus needs to be aimdodged is completely dishonest, as if you wanna argue that then you're genuinely saying that his attacks are all Immeasurable except those, which is completely nonsense, as if one of his attacks is Immeasurable, then all of them are; thus Asriel stuff is objectively not a disqualifier, unless you plan to get rid of that too, as these attacks would simply scale above baseline Immeasurable speed).

I never meant to imply that it needing to be aimdodged has to do with it being accepted. If a finite-speed character had Asriel's same lightning-themed attack, I would consider it to qualify. But since it comes down in 0 frames, it would be aimdodging, and thus wouldn't scale. However, if it came down slowly (either sufficiently slowly that Frisk's clearly moving relative, or not too much slower but without warning indicators), I would be fine with calculating Frisk's dodge relative to its speed.

And the point of bringing up this attack as a disqualifier is to highlight that realistic lightning can be done within Undertale's artstyle.

So no, my point does not imply that this one attack of his is slower than Immeasurable.

The "characters can manipulate attacks so it disqualifies them from going at irl speeds" is also completely dishonest and not an argument done in good faith like at all, either. Like, what exactly says that they'd make the attacks slower? We do see that all the fire attacks do harm Frisk despite the latter at their weakest barely taking damage from an explosion that's over 9000 °F (it's in their profile in the Resistance section, if you wanna check). I think that monsters making attacks weaker on purpose is something that requires evidence that you simply cannot prove, and Occam's razor says that they must go at the fastest/strongest, simply because there's no evidence of them going easy on Frisk (and before you mention Toriel, she's the only one who actually does it, as all the other monsters do actually try to kill Frisk and get their SOUL, with the reason being pretty blatant, to get out of the Underground).

I've responded to the unjustified assumption that Undertale's magic attacks are all created as perfectly real, and then nerfed to be fake, here, here, and here.

AKA I do not buy the arguments made against MHS+ a single bit, they seem to ignore context most of the time and attempt to be super strict in order to make the verse super slow just because.

Undertale's one of my favourite games of all time. I've even spent an inordinate amount of time battleboarding Undertale fanfiction. It's funny that you're taking the "you just want to make the verse weak for no reason!!" angle against me of all people.

I'll ping the staff you requested now. @Antvasima @LordGriffin1000 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Propellus @Planck69

 

[StrymULTRA]

Your example with SoL and above is a case of assuming the fiction aligns with reality until it demonstrates otherwise. I like this principle. Yet the case you're going with the lightning here is assuming the fiction aligns with reality despite only putting up the thinnest veneer of something quasi-realistic. You're not actually holding a consistent principle between those two cases. Can you not see that? In the first case reality says High 3-A, but the fiction contradicts that by being unrealistic. In the second case reality says MHS+, and you accept that despite the fiction being unrealistic.

Only that in this case the reason why it's unrealistic is due to it having context.

Notice the bolded part, the other examples you're thinking of have more support despite that anti-feat.

Huh?

I don't know if I was this clear, but if there was even one very good statement of the lightning being real, such as an NPC having text that pops up after fighting Vulkin saying "Did you hear that lightning? Wow, it really rattled my bones." I would be fine with MHS+. But I find the positive evidence (the unrealistic but thematically matching visuals, the exclamation of "thunder!" due to its general misuse in fiction, and the occasional real effects of other forms of magic) all very weak.

...how is it saying "Thunder" an opposing point? Like seriously. It only says that the attack is a thunder, and we see that after that it is one. Not that hard to grasp.

How is it a false equivalence? My argument was "One other magic attack being real (Toriel's fire) doesn't make all magic attacks real. Just like how one magic attack being fake (Mettaton's bombs) doesn't make all magic attacks fake." It does not matter if other bombs are realistic for the point being made, which is that isolated examples in other categories do not contaminate everything else to the same level of realism.

It only just further proves my point of attacks being capable of being shaped in different forms by monsters. Remember that there's a in-verse explanation of the monsters actually manipulating these to make bullet patterns to cement my argument some more, there's an explanation beyond "fake, fake, don't trust!!!!".

I've responded to "other attacks can be manipulated so we should assume real values despite this one acting unrealistically" here, here, and here.

You didn't, no. All you said can be boiled to "it's not because I say so" while stubbornly ignoring the context I've provided above. This is why arguing with you is something I really don't like, repeating the same point over and over off mere belief until the other side gives up.

And the point of bringing up this attack as a disqualifier is to highlight that realistic lightning can be done within Undertale's artstyle.

So no, my point does not imply that this one attack of his is slower than Immeasurable.

I do get what you mean, but it can still be refuted again by the "it can be shaped" argument once again. Asriel's lightning just happens to be faster than the Immeasurable Frisk, and Vulkin's instead is not. This is a different Frisk we talk about, given that their stats greatly vary depending on their DT, we literally cannot compare the two here right because Asriel is fighting against a far faster Frisk than the one who dealt with Vulkin.

I may have worded my statement with you claiming that Asriel's lightning is MHS+, but I was given the impression of you saying "Frisk is shown to struggle with actual realistic lightning, so Vulkin's is fake".

I've responded to the unjustified assumption that Undertale's magic attacks are all created as perfectly real, and then nerfed to be fake, here, here, and here.

All of this is not argued in good faith, again. You're going back to "but it's magic, so who says it's actually real", when there's enough evidence of it being similar enough to irl counterparts. I do think that pushing it to actual lightning being shaped in a bullet pattern is not that far from the truth, as the few things we know of the verse should allow us to make this assumption. The magical electricity in Undertale for example has shown to have no real distinctions from the real one, it has a realistic way to produce it, so we should assume it's like the real one unless something else says it.

Your argument boils down to "but but every other attack being realistic does not mean that this single one also should be!" when it's being excessively nitpicking and being overly strict for no real reason.

 

[Agnaa]

Only that in this case the reason why it's unrealistic is due to it having context.

Huh? Both of them do. I don't get this.

Huh?

I used "anti-feat" as shorthand for "indication that it is not real".

...how is it saying "Thunder" an opposing point? Like seriously. It only says that the attack is a thunder, and we see that after that it is one. Not that hard to grasp.

I never said it was. I put it under the camp of weak positive evidence.

It only just further proves my point of attacks being capable of being shaped in different forms by monsters. Remember that there's a in-verse explanation of the monsters actually manipulating these to make bullet patterns to cement my argument some more, there's an explanation beyond "fake, fake, don't trust!!!!".

If every example of non-realism is instead taken as an excuse, then there is literally nothing I could present to convince you.

In this post, you'll even go on to say that every other attack in the game is real, despite clearly having cases like this which you need to make up excuses for.

You didn't, no. All you said can be boiled to "it's not because I say so" while stubbornly ignoring the context I've provided above. This is why arguing with you is something I really don't like, repeating the same point over and over off mere belief until the other side gives up.

Not "it's unusable because I say so", but "it's unusable because it could be at any arbitrary value, so we lose any reason for assuming it holds real-world values". I said that in my posts:

If it is the case here, then we lose the basis for a speed rating, since it could be manipulated to move at any arbitrarily low speed

And the speed of lightning coming from a magically-created cloud isn't an issue unless the movement of that lightning has been unnaturally tweaked in a way that casts doubt on that speed.

All of this is not argued in good faith, again. You're going back to "but it's magic, so who says it's actually real"

No, and I think it's pretty plain for anyone to see that that's not what I'm doing.

It seems like your counterargument to that is the idea that these things are spawned realistic, and then magically tweaked to being fake, but I could imagine it operating differently. We lack too much info on the magic system to say anything concrete, so I don't think you should implicitly assert that method of operation.

you're assuming that monsters create their attacks as perfectly realistic ones, and then magically alter them to be less realistic. We don't know enough about the magic system for that assumption to be supported, and there's other plausible ways it could operate instead.

They're creating magical fire and magical electricity, they're not creating real fire and electricity with magic. They have some similarities, but also some differences, which occasionally lead to real values not being able to be assumed.

The last one is the only post I linked where I could imagine you getting that, but even then, it's clearly more nuanced than "made with magic = instantly fake", it requires the evaluation of those instances of magic themselves and how extreme and relevant those differences are.

The magical electricity in Undertale for example has shown to have no real distinctions from the real one, it has a realistic way to produce it, so we should assume it's like the real one unless something else says it.

Responded to that phrasing of the evidence here. In particular, I think the "produced in a realistic way" idea is wack; she wouldn't change the topic when talking about how geothermal power is converted into magical electricity if it was something plain and realistic like a steam-powered turbine.

Your argument boils down to "but but every other attack being realistic does not mean that this single one also should be!" when it's being excessively nitpicking and being overly strict for no real reason.

It's not every other attack being realistic. It's two pieces of magic being shown to be substitutes for the real thing in some cases, while still differing in other ways, and one piece of magic shown to continue existing outside of battle. As well as a bunch of pieces of magic which are demonstrably not realistic, but which are excused through the verse's magic system. There's very blatant stuff like ghosts being able to be injured by magical explosions and tears, but not any physical phenomena, which goes against the idea of them corresponding one-to-one.

Note that I don't use those as a direct counterargument to the usability of Vulkin's attacks. I believe that other attacks being real doesn't make Vulkin's attacks real, and that other attacks being fake doesn't make Vulkin's attacks fake. But I still think it's worthwhile to point out that "every other attack is realistic" is false.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If every example of non-realism is instead taken as an excuse, then there is literally nothing I could present to convince you.

In this post, you'll even go on to say that every other attack in the game is real, despite clearly having cases like this which you need to make up excuses for.

You call it excuse, I call it "giving context on why the thing looks unrealistic". Plus I can equally say that yours is an excuse, too.

Not "it's unusable because I say so", but "it's unusable because it could be at any arbitrary value, so we lose any reason for assuming it holds real-world values". I said that in my posts:

There's literally no evidence on why it would go at lower values in the fights, and on why they'd do that. It's an assertion you made up despite it having literal 0 basis to claim such.

The last one is the only post I linked where I could imagine you getting that, but even then, it's clearly more nuanced than "made with magic = instantly fake", it requires the evaluation of those instances of magic themselves and how extreme and relevant those differences are.

I do not think so, no. In my view, if you see the UT magic as mimics of real elements which can still be manipulated by the users to make attacks, then the lightning being comparable to the irl speed is not that far fetched. The visuals make the intent clear, just like it's clear for Toriel's fire to act as such despite it being manipulated to be fire bullets in her attacks.

Responded to that phrasing of the evidence here. In particular, I think the "produced in a realistic way" idea is wack; she wouldn't change the topic when talking about how geothermal power is converted into magical electricity if it was something plain and realistic like a steam-powered turbine.

Ngl dude I think you're overthinking, why would the game give you a physics lesson, when its main focus is on a kid having an adventure in a world inside a mountain populated by silly monsters? From what I see, Alphys interrupting herself is not an indicator of anything (also because Frisk is a kid, and not only it's likely that they wouldn't understand such high-end science, but also both them and Alphys had other priorities than having a Physics class, remember).

It's not every other attack being realistic. It's two pieces of magic being shown to be substitutes for the real thing in some cases, while still differing in other ways, and one piece of magic shown to continue existing outside of battle. As well as a bunch of pieces of magic which are demonstrably not realistic, but which are excused through the verse's magic system. There's very blatant stuff like ghosts being able to be injured by magical explosions and tears, but not any physical phenomena, which goes against the idea of them corresponding one-to-one.

Note that I don't use those as a direct counterargument to the usability of Vulkin's attacks. I believe that other attacks being real doesn't make Vulkin's attacks real, and that other attacks being fake doesn't make Vulkin's attacks fake. But I still think it's worthwhile to point out that "every other attack is realistic" is false.

Now you're being pedantic. You used before as evidence for stuff being unrealistic the bomb (which I already did explain) and Toriel's fire not leaving burns on the pots, which can be simply be waved off as a very minor difference which ultimately does not change the fire behaving as the real one for the rest of the properties.

 

[Agnaa]

You call it excuse, I call it "giving context on why the thing looks unrealistic". Plus I can equally say that yours is an excuse, too.

I call it an excuse because you use it to disregard the existence of that evidence. idk what parallel there'd be in my argument.

There's literally no evidence on why it would go at lower values in the fights, and on why they'd do that. It's an assertion you made up despite it having literal 0 basis to claim such.

Maybe this would be more clear if I stepped away from the contentious area of the series itself.

Let's say that we have a sequence, "1, 2, 4", and you say "This sequence must continue with 8, then 16, because each number is twice as large as the previous". If I responded to that with "Hey that's an unfounded assertion, there's other ways it could behave, we shouldn't assume that out of nowhere", you might ask me to prove it, by suggesting another valid way it could operate. If I then said "1, 2, 4, 7, 11, by having the gap between each number increase by 1", I think it would be unfair for you to go "Wow, look at you making an unfounded assertion with literally 0 basis."

I have repeatedly emphasized that we simply do not know enough about how the magic system works. While you and OrangeGuy are asserting with 0 evidence that all magical attacks are created real, and then nerfed to be faker and weaker.

You are asserting a way the magic system functions based on insufficient information in order to assume a high rating. I am saying that we don't have enough information to know that, so we shouldn't assume such high speeds, so the calc is invalid. These are not the same.

Ngl dude I think you're overthinking, why would the game give you a physics lesson, when its main focus is on a kid having an adventure in a world inside a mountain populated by silly monsters? From what I see, Alphys interrupting herself is not an indicator of anything (also because Frisk is a kid, and not only it's likely that they wouldn't understand such high-end science, but also both them and Alphys had other priorities than having a Physics class, remember).

Homie. Changing the topic suddenly with a concerned face? From Alphys of all people? The character who constantly overexplains shit to Frisk (from silly stuff like anime, to things glorifying herself like the impressive things she'll do to overcome the obstacles in Frisk's way, to humbling things like ideas for why her countermeasures are failing in the CORE). I think it's getting at something.

Now you're being pedantic.

I don't think it's pedantry to bring those sorts of things up when you say "every other attack is realistic", but if you think the differences are minor in comparison to the evidence for them being real, fair enough.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I call it an excuse because you use it to disregard the existence of that evidence. idk what parallel there'd be in my argument.

Maybe because you don't concede and keep spamming the same stuff? I mean, your entire thing is just saying "it can't be realistic because of this minor difference!", which is decontextualized and refused to see the other side.

Maybe this would be more clear if I stepped away from the contentious area of the series itself.

Let's say that we have a sequence, "1, 2, 4", and you say "This sequence must continue with 8, then 16, because each number is twice as large as the previous". If I responded to that with "Hey that's an unfounded assertion, there's other ways it could behave, we shouldn't assume that out of nowhere", you might ask me to prove it, by suggesting another valid way it could operate. If I then said "1, 2, 4, 7, 11, by having the gap between each number increase by 1", I think it would be unfair for you to go "Wow, look at you making an unfounded assertion with literally 0 basis."

I have repeatedly emphasized that we simply do not know enough about how the magic system works. While you and OrangeGuy are asserting with 0 evidence that all magical attacks are created real, and then nerfed to be faker and weaker.

You are asserting a way the magic system functions based on insufficient information in order to assume a high rating. I am saying that we don't have enough information to know that, so we shouldn't assume such high speeds, so the calc is invalid. These are not the same.

No ok this is just a very long way to explain your bullshit.

We not knowing enough is not an excuse, we base ourselves in what we see, and we find it enough to say that it's enough to say that it is MHS+, it's that simple. Stop overthinking about it. I already did say above why I think such: it mimics real world elements and it's manipulated to look like bullets. You keeping to say that it's not over and over isn't a debunk.

I already did explain, your numerical stuff is a very forced comparison that holds no water here, I talk only for the perspective of the verse. So keep your faulty examples out of here, thank you.

Homie. Changing the topic suddenly with a concerned face? From Alphys of all people? The character who constantly overexplains shit to Frisk (from silly stuff like anime, to things glorifying herself like the impressive things she'll do to overcome the obstacles in Frisk's way, to humbling things like ideas for why her countermeasures are failing in the CORE). I think it's getting at something.

Why are you using gag moments here? Like, Alphys going full weeb is usually used in just the funny stuff, that was a serious scene. Plus I don't see why her interrupting herself would mean anything in your favor, like I am not following you.

 

[Agnaa]

Maybe because you don't concede and keep spamming the same stuff? I mean, your entire thing is just saying "it can't be realistic because of this minor difference!", which is decontextualized and refused to see the other side.

It isn't, I've already said that, if Undertale had an additional sufficiently-solid statement, I'd be fine with it despite the counter-evidence.

No ok this is just a very long way to explain your bullshit.

We not knowing enough is not an excuse, we base ourselves in what we see, and we find it enough to say that it's enough to say that it is MHS+, it's that simple. Stop overthinking about it. I already did say above why I think such: it mimics real world elements and it's manipulated to look like bullets. You keeping to say that it's not over and over isn't a debunk.

I already did explain, your numerical stuff is a very forced comparison that holds no water here, I talk only for the perspective of the verse. So keep your faulty examples out of here, thank you.

That example was about a very specific thread of the argument, not the entire thing. The subset which went roughly like:

• "It's just manipulated to look like bullets."
• "It being manipulated to change its movement means we can't use IRL lightning movement."
• "Why would they create IRL lightning and then nerf it to be hundreds of times slower?"
• "You're implicitly assuming they start with IRL lightning and then nerf it. We don't know enough to assume that."
• "Well why are YOU assuming they'd slow it for no reason?"

Where I think it makes an apt comparison.

Why are you using gag moments here? Like, Alphys going full weeb is usually used in just the funny stuff, that was a serious scene. Plus I don't see why her interrupting herself would mean anything in your favor, like I am not following you.

Why say "gag moments" when I only used one, and provided two gestures at serious scenes as well? You're just ignoring two thirds of my examples.

I think she's interrupting because there's something more dodgy going on than ordinary steam power.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It isn't, I've already said that, if Undertale had an additional sufficiently-solid statement, I'd be fine with it despite the counter-evidence.

I think that Vulking saying "Thunder" and monsters being able to manipulate the elements in order to make different bullets should be enough, as for the former you literally have him saying that and his next attack literally mirrors so. I don't think you can really refute those, it's more you just deciding to discard these through calling them weak and being overly strict.

As I said, I wouldn't mind gunning for a likely/possibly if both sides won't stop arguing as I am indeed starting to get a headache here, but for me you definitely ain't convincing me, as imo you're just being too harsh on it, when the intent is pretty clear. You see other attacks being narratively potrayed to be like the stuff they mimic (Aaron is also another example that came to me, as his bullets are literal sweat, and the flavor text also says so), so the lightning also being a parallel to irl one has definitely some basis, too.

• "You're implicitly assuming they start with IRL lightning and then nerf it. We don't know enough to assume that."

This is where you're wrong. None but you said they're nerfing it. I talk about it being manipulated to look like bullet, but that in itself isn't a nerf (as in made weaker/slower, if I am reading it correctly), but they're merely remodeling it, and that nowhere does imply that speed is being tampered here. You talk as if we do not know enough, but I drew the conclusion through comparing it with other elements, which did showcase to be similar enough to the irl counterparts, and then just went with saying that the lightning also should be comparable with the real one, as if others are, the lightning has no reason to be any different here.

I think she's interrupting because there's something more dodgy going on than ordinary steam power.

I mean, no shit there's something more, it's magic after all, yes. But that doesn't mean that it cannot be compared to real electricity to the point of it being a whole other thing, we see multiple buildings in Undertale, each using electricity in the way you expect it to work, and without more information, we just go by the most obvious assumption (similar to when we calc stuff, we go by the most likely assumption in lack of evidence for details like timeframe or material).

Dunno what's so hard to grasp and attempt to make UT magic as being completely uncomparable to the stuff it mimics, really.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Unrelated but I forgot to also call @DarkDragonMedeus, who did participate in Orange's CRT and agreed with the Discussion Rule.

Could someone make him know about my arguments, please?

 

[Agnaa]

This is where you're wrong. None but you said they're nerfing it.

OrangeGuy did when discussing Toriel's fire being cool enough to touch in the fireplace, and which seemed implicitly invoked by you discussing monster fire reaching over 9000 Fahrenheit.

And more generally, it's about how you're viewing my position that it's slower. That the fact that these magical attacks can be manipulated involves them starting in a realistic form and then being mutated from there, and that such a character wouldn't choose to make their lightning slower.

I talk about it being manipulated to look like bullet, but that in itself isn't a nerf (as in made weaker/slower, if I am reading it correctly), but they're merely remodeling it, and that nowhere does imply that speed is being tampered here.

I think forcing it into discrete packages, and getting it to travel unnatural paths away from the ground, relates enough to how they move. If you don't, fair enough.

I mean, no shit there's something more, it's magic after all, yes. But that doesn't mean that it cannot be compared to real electricity to the point of it being a whole other thing, we see multiple buildings in Undertale, each using electricity in the way you expect it to work, and without more information, we just go by the most obvious assumption (similar to when we calc stuff, we go by the most likely assumption in lack of evidence for details like timeframe or material).

Dunno what's so hard to grasp and attempt to make UT magic as being completely uncomparable to the stuff it mimics, really.

Wew. You first said there's no real distinctions between it and real electricity, and that it was produced realistically. I point out a distinction and now you're going "Oh of course there's some differences, but they're not completely different".

I guess it's good that I've moved your position, but it sucks that you're doing this motte and bailey, and are pretending that I hold a far more extreme one than I do, despite me explicitly saying otherwise.

Unrelated but I forgot to also call @DarkDragonMedeus, who did participate in Orange's CRT and agreed with the Discussion Rule.

Could someone make him know about my arguments, please?

@DarkDragonMedeus

 

[StrymULTRA]

OrangeGuy did when discussing Toriel's fire being cool enough to touch in the fireplace, and which seemed implicitly invoked by you discussing monster fire reaching over 9000 Fahrenheit.

Because in that context Toriel was simply cooking, while here is a fighting scene. Not really comparable, don't you think?

Wew. You first said there's no real distinctions between it and real electricity, and that it was produced realistically. I point out a distinction and now you're going "Oh of course there's some differences, but they're not completely different".

I guess it's good that I've moved your position, but it sucks that you're doing this motte and bailey, and are pretending that I hold a far more extreme one than I do, despite me explicitly saying otherwise.

Do not warp what I am saying. I did already say that the magic fire and real fire do have differences (aka the leaving burns on pots), but what I am saying is that these differences are all pretty minor and shouldn't be put in discussion about them being comparable to the real ones. The electricity thing, as I said, also has showcased to be comparable to real one despite being magical, given that (repeating myself) in Undertale there are many buildings, and the electricity there behaves like you'd expect it to, as they have their own internet, lighting, electronic devices, and so on. That enough is telling me that the magical electricity is not that different than the real one.

I think forcing it into discrete packages, and getting it to travel unnatural paths away from the ground, relates enough to how they move. If you don't, fair enough.

Pretty much the case here, yes.

 

[Agnaa]

Because in that context Toriel was simply cooking, while here is a fighting scene. Not really comparable, don't you think?

Possible nitpicks aside, I don't get your point.

Also, I edited in another bit to my last post:

And more generally, it's about how you're viewing my position that it's slower. That the fact that these magical attacks can be manipulated involves them starting in a realistic form and then being mutated from there, and that such a character wouldn't choose to make their lightning slower.

If that's all, from you and everyone else, we may just want to wait for evaluations.

 

[StrymULTRA]

And more generally, it's about how you're viewing my position that it's slower. That the fact that these magical attacks can be manipulated involves them starting in a realistic form and then being mutated from there, and that such a character wouldn't choose to make their lightning slower.

Imo, yes. The shape of the thing is altered, but the other properties (such as speed) aren't exactly tampered and imo there should no reason to simply assume they do.

Possible nitpicks aside, I don't get your point.

My point is that Toriel in the context of cooking, has purposely nerfed the fire in order to not damage anything and just create a generaly pleasant atmosphere, as going with 9000 °F is completely counterproductive (we saw what happened to Undyne's house after all). However, while fighting Frisk, she had no reason to nerf the heat of her attacks, given that those do harm Frisk here unlike the fire that is used for domestic purposes.

Aka my point is that monsters can nerf their attacks, but have 0 reasons to do that when fighting, and use it at its most efficient form, aka they'd have no reason to make attacks go slow on purpose.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

While I can understand points on both sides, I am leaning towards the opposition making more sense. There is a lot of consistency in Undertale's lore about elements having the properties of natural elements; and most counterarguments don't really seem to imply being slower or weaker compared to natural real world counterparts (And if it's not real lightning, I'd be more advocate to say it's faster than real lightning than slower based on other side descriptions). And I am not a big fan of people using the fact that Undertale uses the 8-Bit art/animation style to critique the animation lacking properties; as it doesn't change the fact lore is in more support of the feats in question.

 

[Planck69]

I largely share the same view as DarkDragonMedeus on this. Also, while I can see the merit of some of the arguments by Agnaa, the others are rather pedantic let's be real (no, the fire in a fireplace she made being far cooler than the upper end of temperatures they're capable of doesn't mean that they're going to hold back to that degree in an actual fight, like what?).

 

[Agnaa]

My point is that Toriel in the context of cooking, has purposely nerfed the fire in order to not damage anything and just create a generaly pleasant atmosphere, as going with 9000 °F is completely counterproductive (we saw what happened to Undyne's house after all). However, while fighting Frisk, she had no reason to nerf the heat of her attacks, given that those do harm Frisk here unlike the fire that is used for domestic purposes.

Also, while I can see the merit of some of the arguments by Agnaa, the others are rather pedantic let's be real (no, the fire in a fireplace she made being far cooler than the upper end of temperatures they're capable of doesn't mean that they're going to hold back to that degree in an actual fight, like what?).

Wha, I never said that!

My point with the cold fire when talking with Strym was just that it was unrealistic. However, I did make a point about calc assumptions when fire manipulation is in play earlier, but that was still different:

If we know that a character can create an 800 degree fireball, and an 80 degree fireball, we'd assume that they'd use the 800 degree fireball in a serious fight.

However, if we know that a character can create an 800 degree fireball, and an 80 degree fireball, and we see them create a massive pillar of fire, we should not assume that it's at 800 degrees unless we get evidence of that. Having it be 80 degrees would be easier, and without indications that it's particularly hot, we shouldn't assume it's the more powerful and realistic thing they can do, if we also know they make unrealistic fire. And ofc, if we only see them make 80 degree fire, we wouldn't assume it's a realistic temperature in other scenes without evidence.

I don't think this actual case with the fire comes up in Undertale, though.

Aka my point is that monsters can nerf their attacks, but have 0 reasons to do that when fighting, and use it at its most efficient form, aka they'd have no reason to make attacks go slow on purpose.

If we know they have access to a more efficient form, like with Toriel, then sure. But we don't always know that, and in those cases, we shouldn't assume that it starts off realistic and then gets nerfed to something unrealistic.

There is a lot of consistency in Undertale's lore about elements having the properties of natural elements

To be clear, this is based on two things. Alphy's statement about magical electricity powering the underground, and the newsletter gif of her lighting some candles.

Is there any amount of counter-evidence, of them showing differing properties from the natural elements, that could convince you? Or would it all just be taken as more evidence of monsters being able to manipulate their attacks.

And I am not a big fan of people using the fact that Undertale uses the 8-Bit art/animation style to critique the animation lacking properties; as it doesn't change the fact lore is in more support of the feats in question.

Did you see my point about Asriel's lightning?

As an aside, I feel obligated to point out that Undertale does have far more realistic lightning; if Frisk's soul was outpacing these, rather than them coming down in one frame, I'd be perfectly fine with scaling (at least at that point in the story). I think this heavily indicates that it's not an artistic limitation preventing the Vulkin stuff from being more realistic, it's an artistic choice to have theirs be more fake.

 

[StrymULTRA]

However, if we know that a character can create an 800 degree fireball, and an 80 degree fireball, and we see them create a massive pillar of fire, we should not assume that it's at 800 degrees unless we get evidence of that. Having it be 80 degrees would be easier, and without indications that it's particularly hot, we shouldn't assume it's the more powerful and realistic thing they can do, if we also know they make unrealistic fire. And ofc, if we only see them make 80 degree fire, we wouldn't assume it's a realistic temperature in other scenes without evidence.

I don't think this actual case with the fire comes up in Undertale, though.

So this entire point of yours is moot, got it.

If we know they have access to a more efficient form, like with Toriel, then sure. But we don't always know that, and in those cases, we shouldn't assume that it starts off realistic and then gets nerfed to something unrealistic.

Unrealistic ≠ Nerfed, stop saying it, I've already addressed that.

I'm saying all the time that you can easily argue that the attacks are made more efficient in their bullet form, this "manipulating elements is ALWAYS nerfing them" is a headcanon of yours.

 

[Agnaa]

So this entire point of yours is moot, got it.

No, it meets an analogy as a counterargument against "They may be able to manipulate how their attacks travel, but we should still assume that they move at real speeds".

Unrealistic ≠ Nerfed, stop saying it, I've already addressed that.

I'm saying all the time that you can easily argue that the attacks are made more efficient in their bullet form, this "manipulating elements is ALWAYS nerfing them" is a headcanon of yours.

Okay, pretend I said the word "changed" instead of "nerfed", I still stand by it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It you're this stubborn about the whole "manipulating elements must mean that those can't travel anymore at the same speed as real ones" despite the lack of evidence to make such a claim, then I don't think I can do much to convince you, not gonna lie.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Oh right, forgot to respond to the fact that the fire analogy in itself is just bad because unlike Vulkin, your fire example assumes the character has displayed multiple ways to use their fire (and again, why would they not use the 800 degrees for their pillar, if they have showcased to reach such temperatures, the yours is again a standard made by yourself).

Vulkin instead appeared only once, in a combat scenario, and that's it. Without other showings, we have all the right to assume that it's at full speed, just because we have 0 reason to assume otherwise.

Aka, again, headcanon from your part.

 

[Agnaa]

It you're this stubborn about the whole "manipulating elements must mean that those can't travel anymore at the same speed as real ones" despite the lack of evidence to make such a claim, then I don't think I can do much to convince you, not gonna lie.

As I said, not any way of manipulating them, but a way which seems relevant to the property from the real thing that's being assumed for the calculation.

But yeah, this doesn't seem to be going much of anywhere.

Oh right, forgot to respond to the fact that the fire analogy in itself is just bad because unlike Vulkin, your fire example assumes the character has displayed multiple ways to use their fire (and again, why would they not use the 800 degrees for their pillar, if they have showcased to reach such temperatures, the yours is again a standard made by yourself).

Vulkin instead appeared only once, in a combat scenario, and that's it. Without other showings, we have all the right to assume that it's at full speed, just because we have 0 reason to assume otherwise.

Aka, again, headcanon from your part.

Because the example was, in that case, deriving more from Toriel's than from Vulkin's, and Toriel has displayed both warm and relatively cool fire.

This makes the pro-assume-it's-real argument stronger, since there is actual a canonical case of it being done realistically. Vulkin's is even worse, since they lack that. And for Vulkin, the reasons to assume it's not real full-speed lightning are presented in the OP, and all throughout the thread.