Undertale MHS Downgrade

[Agnaa]

Previous thread here.

The lightning isn't real, and should not be given speeds of cloud-to-ground lightning or even electricity. This has previously gone on and off profiles over the years, I'd like it to be done once and for all. Removing the ratings, reverting characters to Supersonic/Supersonic+, removing the note saying this one (and the exceedingly similar Mettaton feat) are accepted from the verse page, and adding a discussion rule against it, since imo the arguments aren't substantially changing each time; it's just getting accepted by different staff members that weren't there for previous times it was discussed.

Part of my counter-arguments are based on how Frisk's soul is accepted as being ~43 cm wide, and how that's accepted for scaling to the sizes and distances of attacks.

One can see a visual of this attack here.

This attack doesn't involve real lightning as:

1. It is emanated as discrete bolts from the cloud, shaped as cartoonish depictions of electricity, while real lightning streaks up from the ground, and down from the cloud simultaneously, in curving, branching lines, until they connect.
2. Many of the bolts are fired in unrealistic directions, almost parallel to the ground, or even away from the ground, which cannot occur with real lightning.
3. The cloud is just over a meter across, and just under a meter tall, completely unlike any real clouds.
4. The cloud is about 2.5 meters above the ground, which is not a sufficient distance for cloud-to-ground lightning.

Now, to respond to the relevant counterarguments from the last thread's OP.

Vulkin says "Thunder!" before this attack. It comes from a cloud.

Because these attacks are themed off of lightning. It's unsurprising that a goofy RPG monster also says things in line with that. There are many fictional things that take some theming from real-world phenomena, while acting completely differently. We should not let their style overturn the substance.

Some other magic attacks in Undertale clearly correspond to their real-world counterparts, by persisting in that way afterwards.

Not everything from a magic system is inherently equally real. One character being able to create ice and it being real does not mean that another character creating a black hole has to be legit; they're different abilities that should be judged on their own adherence to reality. Mettaton's bombs being unrealistic by only exploding in the four cardinal directions has not managed to disprove the usability every other magic attack in the game, I would not expect the valid attacks to auto-allow every magic attack with issues.

Some other magic attacks like fireballs are manipulated to move in unnatural ways, why can't that be the case here?

If it is the case here, then we lose the basis for a speed rating, since it could be manipulated to move at any arbitrarily low speed. If we knew that a fire manipulator's fire was sometimes as cold as 50 degrees, we would not always assume that it was 800 degrees. The ability to alter these things, rather than letting us justify sticking to real values despite the discordance, in fact makes us unable to use real values.

Pinging users who I think might care: @TheOrangeGuy09 @ShionAH @StrymULTRA

Pinging staff members who accepted the previous thread: @DarkDragonMedeus @Propellus

 

[StrymULTRA]

Close your own thread. We have a discussion rule about this.

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, like regardless of the merit of the thread itself, we've recently-ish established a discussion rule against bringing up speed changes for Undertale, in regards to the lightning feats.

 

[Agnaa]

Oh wew. Looking at the thread, the only staff comments on the actual substance of such a downgrade were "This is just a mix of appealing to reality and incredulity", after that it was just talk about implementing the discussion rule.

"Appeal to reality" is not a fallacy, it's how the site operates, with our standards on black holes, light, kinetic energy, mass-energy equivalence, and far more. It's not even on our Fallacies page.

Both this and the previous thread don't really have anything that imo you could point to for a claim of incredulity.

But if you and the others who supported that rule addition (@LephyrTheRevanchist @LordGriffin1000 @Antvasima) don't find any of this convincing, then ig it is what it is.

 

[Propellus]

Since the discussion rule is present I got no say here

 

[Robo432343]

agree fr

 

[Agnaa]

Since the discussion rule is present I got no say here

Discussion rules can change! You are in fact allowed to say "That rule is unfounded, and this reason for downgrading and changing that rule makes sense." or "The reasons for the speed rating make sense, so it, and the rule, should stay." or even "I'm not sure what should be done."

I think your view in particular is pretty relevant, since you were one of the two staff members that commented on the upgrade immediately before the discussion rule got put into place.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Discussion rules can be struck down if it is decided by a later group that the rule is illegitimate. For now, discussion ought to continue as if the rule were not made, until those staff pinged on the subject speak their minds: reckon their opinions are among the most relevant.

 

[Agnaa]

Gonna hold off on responding. I'd rather get the discussion rule concern ironed out before engaging in a big back-and-forth.

EDIT: This was aimed towards a now-deleted post by Eden_Warlock99 defending the rating.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Agnaa makes sense here.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I definitely agree with Agnaa that a discussion rule can be changed. After all, we do note the following in our discussion rules:

Ultimately, the final decision regarding the approval of a content revision should be based on a thorough and unbiased evaluation of the suggested changes and their impact on each verse, rather than on the rank or status of the staff members involved.

While the text is in context referring to the content of a revision rather than the policy of rules, the intent is that we shouldn't get trapped in maintaining inaccurate information just because a staff member (or in this case, a discussion rule) says it. If the rule is based on wrongful information, it is our job to correct it.

With that being said, the overall case here is if we should consider the lightning portrayal of UT as accurate enough for us to apply MHS speeds to it. I personally will always hold that these speeds are warranted, though can definitely see why we would be more critical of it, since it does showcase weirdness by the stylistic decisions the game takes.

There's really no proper argument against what Agnaa raises. For me at least, I try to always take into consideration the (what I perceive as) the intent behind the animation. In this case, it's an electric attack that comes from a cloud, with minor references around the fact that is meant to be an actual lightning (with Vulkin shouting the thunder and all). If by our standards it is decided this isn't enough, so be it.

But we definitely need to keep the rule, whether it being pro-upgrade or anti-upgrade because of all the threads it has spawned and will continue to spawn without it. This are my thoughts here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Imma just say that some of the arguments here are easily counterable here (especially the bomb one, that's genuinely terrible), but Imma respect Agnaa's wish to wait for staff members before making a reponse.

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

(Well it has been a long time since I didn't open the forum. Sorry for the absence, I've had personal problems.)

Well I agree to this revision since I have been the one who made the revision thread before this one about the same subject, which was closed for further replies after the staff had decided to disagree, but also since I was not really convinced.

I also agree that the discussion rule should be kept, but rather edited so that it matches with this revision, if it is approved, so that Undertale revision posts regarding speed tiers can stop.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Oh wew. Looking at the thread, the only staff comments on the actual substance of such a downgrade were "This is just a mix of appealing to reality and incredulity", after that it was just talk about implementing the discussion rule.

"Appeal to reality" is not a fallacy, it's how the site operates, with our standards on black holes, light, kinetic energy, mass-energy equivalence, and far more. It's not even on our Fallacies page.

Both this and the previous thread don't really have anything that imo you could point to for a claim of incredulity.

But if you and the others who supported that rule addition (@LephyrTheRevanchist @LordGriffin1000 @Antvasima) don't find any of this convincing, then ig it is what it is.

Seeing as my comment on that thread pertained to the rule addition (as other staff disagreed so I focused on just that), I speak on that. I'll not immediately close the thread as I don't know all the reasons brought forth and as pointed out by others rules can change (only when the arguments are literally the same as those rejected should the thread be closed). So I do not mind if this thread continues, if only to drop the final nail in the coffin.

As for the thread itself, I don't know if I'll be able to contribute, I think you have some valid points, but I'll half to see the responses. Don't let me hold up the discussion though, I'm sick and busy so I don't know when I'll be able to respond consistently but I wanted to comment quickly to respond to your this post as it mentioned me.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Are we allowed to counter-argument now?

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

Are we allowed to counter-argument now?

Unsure. I think we are waiting for Staff replies.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

All of the staff Agnaa had set out to hear from have spoken and made clear that they feel it is fine for discussion to continue, either out of agreement or an interest in seeing the rule cemented one way or another. As such, we may continue considering the rule currently null. Post your counterarguments as you wish.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Another day, another Undertale speed revision

 

[Agnaa]

With that being said, the overall case here is if we should consider the lightning portrayal of UT as accurate enough for us to apply MHS speeds to it. I personally will always hold that these speeds are warranted, though can definitely see why we would be more critical of it, since it does showcase weirdness by the stylistic decisions the game takes.

There's really no proper argument against what Agnaa raises. For me at least, I try to always take into consideration the (what I perceive as) the intent behind the animation. In this case, it's an electric attack that comes from a cloud, with minor references around the fact that is meant to be an actual lightning (with Vulkin shouting the thunder and all). If by our standards it is decided this isn't enough, so be it.

So I take it your disagreement is mostly about the stylisation a pixel-art game like this has. In hopes of getting a better idea on where you'd draw the line in cases like this, I'll present to you some cases I've found invalid before:

1. Twinkle Tackle from Pokemon, which causes a bunch of extremely cartoony stars to appear in the background.
2. This part of an NSP music video where an extremely cartoony star is blown up, without causing any effects on the sunlight present, or on the existence of the sun in future videos.
3. The black holes from Mega Man, whose visuals are all some degree of unrealistic, which have few to no effects on the environment, and which can occasionally be moved and thrown.

I'm not presenting these to you tryna get you to make a hard yes/no decision on them absent any further context surrounding these individual cases, or to say that if you accept MHS speed you have to accept all of these, I just wanna use them to explore various stylistic presentations and immediate surrounding effects to start a discussion on this sorta thing. Since they all involve the general trend of "themed as real, in somewhat stylised worlds" vs "looks and behaves unrealistically".

Imma just say that some of the arguments here are easily counterable here (especially the bomb one, that's genuinely terrible), but Imma respect Agnaa's wish to wait for staff members before making a reponse.

tbh I'm glad that a largely unimportant tangent of a response to a counter-argument is the one with the biggest issue, rather than one of the main pillars of my argument (the first two points).

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So I take it your disagreement is mostly about the stylisation a pixel-art game like this has. In hopes of getting a better idea on where you'd draw the line in cases like this, I'll present to you some cases I've found invalid before:

1. Twinkle Tackle from Pokemon, which causes a bunch of extremely cartoony stars to appear in the background.
2. This part of an NSP music video where an extremely cartoony star is blown up, without causing any effects on the sunlight present, or on the existence of the sun in future videos.
3. The black holes from Mega Man, whose visuals are all some degree of unrealistic, which have few to no effects on the environment, and which can occasionally be moved and thrown.

1. Twinkle Tackle I feel (which again, this is certainly my own personal thoughts and wouldn't want it to be taken as me saying: "this is how it is and should be") already would have other problems independent of their" seemingly intended" (I absolutely do not believe the attack is meant to show them literally creating actual stars) portrayal. Mainly: It's a genuine plot point in this game that the main "antagonist" (if you can refer to Necrozma as an antagonist at all) depends on absorbing the light of the stars to properly sustain itself. If a remnant of its energy (Z-Energy comes from Necrozma's light in-lore) can just create them, puts into question its dependence on said light I feel. So even if I would take it as legit (as said, I do not believe that's the intent; I base this perceive intent on the lack of description of said stars in the attack directly , instead just being called "a charming space" and the main plotpoint being around the lights of worlds) there would still be a problem there in context. The main difference with the present case, to me, is the lack of details. With the UT attack, we literally see a cloud forming from a volcano, which then discharges the lightning. We don't see how the stars are being produced (beyond just appearing out of Z-Energy), which then coupled with the lack of description and the cartoony portrayal, then I can certainly agree I wouldn't give it our rating for creating Starry Skies.

Of the others I don't know enough to rule what I believe would be the intent, but:
2. Note once again, my beliefs go towards intent. What you describe here would indeed point to me towards a lack of actual intent. The lack of environmental showings of the effects (once more, the volcano is legit producing a cloud in this case to launch the lightning) thus convince me we wouldn't take it as legit.

3. Our standards for black holes overall I personally don't follow anyways, so I got no comment there.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

All of the staff Agnaa had set out to hear from have spoken and made clear that they feel it is fine for discussion to continue, either out of agreement or an interest in seeing the rule cemented one way or another. As such, we may continue considering the rule currently null. Post your counterarguments as you wish.

I see... well, let's begin then.

Previous thread here.

The lightning isn't real, and should not be given speeds of cloud-to-ground lightning or even electricity. This has previously gone on and off profiles over the years, I'd like it to be done once and for all. Removing the ratings, reverting characters to Supersonic/Supersonic+

The supersonic(+) feat comes exactly from that, but assuming that lightning is electricity based off the exact same minus some arguments that the lightning justification has... reverting them to supersonic would be just double standards. I'm pretty sure in case the justification for lightning being natural will be deemed untrue, then the appropriate rating for the speed for the entire verse will be Average Human (besides God Tiers, of course).

, since imo the arguments aren't substantially changing each time; it's just getting accepted by different staff members that weren't there for previous times it was discussed.

The problem actually was Undertale scaling below High 8-C, which is apparently considered a death of any lightning feats on this website, that's why it wasn't accepted.

This attack doesn't involve real lightning as:

1. It is emanated as discrete bolts from the cloud, shaped as cartoonish depictions of electricity, while real lightning streaks up from the ground, and down from the cloud simultaneously, in curving, branching lines, until they connect.
2. Many of the bolts are fired in unrealistic directions, almost parallel to the ground, or even away from the ground, which cannot occur with real lightning.
3. The cloud is just over a meter across, and just under a meter tall, completely unlike any real clouds.
4. The cloud is about 2.5 meters above the ground, which is not a sufficient distance for cloud-to-ground lightning.

This was all addressed in my CRT that you linked, so I'll just go to your respond to those arguments. I'll just add that the fiction takes many liberties when it comes to elemental powers. There are characters who create fire and electricity out of thin air, following the directions the users specifically say, despite it violating the law of energy conversation, law of mass conservation, and how the fire and electricity are created overall, and the real elements do not follow any direction a living being desires and naturally does not follow those patterns. By a similar logic, we would only accept the fire coming from a narutally occured combusting, lightning only from a naturally occured storm, etc.

Vulkin says "Thunder!" before this attack. It comes from a cloud.

Because these attacks are themed off of lightning. It's unsurprising that a goofy RPG monster also says things in line with that. There are many fictional things that take some theming from real-world phenomena, while acting completely differently. We should not let their style overturn the substance.

The problem here is that the thunder is a natural property that only lightning has, which is not only the good proof by itself, but also further consistencizes the idea that all of magical attacks in Undertale correspond to their real-world counterparts, as shown in the game. Similarly to as if before a magician that can manipulate its own magic creates light attacks and says "Electromagnetic radiation!" or "Protons!", it would heavily imply that this light is natural and has its properties due to having the properties of a real light (photons/electromagnetic radiation).

Some other magic attacks in Undertale clearly correspond to their real-world counterparts, by persisting in that way afterwards.

Not everything from a magic system is inherently equally real. One character being able to create ice and it being real does not mean that another character creating a black hole has to be legit; they're different abilities that should be judged on their own adherence to reality.

The verse consistently shows that the elements with a magical origin has its real-life properties, and we have multiple examples of that, which means the same should apply to the lightning. We do not simply concentrate on one incident and draw conclusion for all, we look at the bigger picture. Unless you have notable contradictions, though. If that's the case, present them.

Mettaton's bombs being unrealistic by only exploding in the four cardinal directions has not managed to disprove the usability every other magic attack in the game, I would not expect the valid attacks to auto-allow every magic attack with issues.

Straw man. Bombs are not naturally occuring things; these are things human beings created. One can make a bomb that does not explode at all. In Mettaton's case, it's just a bomb-looking device that projects energy in four directions when destroyed.

Some other magic attacks like fireballs are manipulated to move in unnatural ways, why can't that be the case here?

If it is the case here, then we lose the basis for a speed rating, since it could be manipulated to move at any arbitrarily low speed. If we knew that a fire manipulator's fire was sometimes as cold as 50 degrees, we would not always assume that it was 800 degrees. The ability to alter these things, rather than letting us justify sticking to real values despite the discordance, in fact makes us unable to use real values.

Not at all. Just because it is true for their sizes and direction, which you would expect the monsters, who control their attacks, to reshape in order to fight in a danmaku-like pattern to fight better, it does not mean their speed would be changed. There is a very good reason for them to reshape the size and direction, but there is no meaningful reason for the monster to change the speed from higher value to lower one. It's just illogical.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah I  agree with nuking this horseshit from existence.

And before anybody brings up Pizza Tower again, two wrongs do not make a right, nuke that too.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The supersonic(+) feat comes exactly from that, but assuming that lightning is electricity based off the exact same minus some arguments that the lightning justification has... reverting them to supersonic would be just double standards. I'm pretty sure in case the justification for lightning being natural will be deemed untrue, then the appropriate rating for the speed for the entire verse will be Average Human (besides God Tiers, of course).

You're forgetting Frisk's meteor dodging feat. Plus, it seems like Agnaa is against treating the Vulkin attack as electricity either, so no double standards, really.

The lightning isn't real, and should not be given speeds of cloud-to-ground lightning or even electricity.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

So I take it your disagreement is mostly about the stylisation a pixel-art game like this has. In hopes of getting a better idea on where you'd draw the line in cases like this, I'll present to you some cases I've found invalid before:

1. Twinkle Tackle from Pokemon, which causes a bunch of extremely cartoony stars to appear in the background.
2. This part of an NSP music video where an extremely cartoony star is blown up, without causing any effects on the sunlight present, or on the existence of the sun in future videos.
3. The black holes from Mega Man, whose visuals are all some degree of unrealistic, which have few to no effects on the environment, and which can occasionally be moved and thrown.

I'm not presenting these to you tryna get you to make a hard yes/no decision on them absent any further context surrounding these individual cases, or to say that if you accept MHS speed you have to accept all of these, I just wanna use them to explore various stylistic presentations and immediate surrounding effects to start a discussion on this sorta thing. Since they all involve the general trend of "themed as real, in somewhat stylised worlds" vs "looks and behaves unrealistically".

I've seen a games using (in vsbattle obviously) some object/phenomenon with unrealistic representations for a "realistic" calculation (like this cloud from Undertale that represents a cloud with rays, but its artistic representation is not close to a real one)

So from my sense, from what I see out there, I personally would consider the cloud thing to be valid.

And before anybody brings up Pizza Tower again, two wrongs do not make a right, nuke that too.

I see this in my mind.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

You're forgetting Frisk's meteor dodging feat. Plus, it seems like Agnaa is against treating the Vulkin attack as electricity either, so no double standards, really.

Those meteors have a magical origin and do not have the same sizes as the real meteors. Also, they could have just spawned with fire, yk.

 

[Agnaa]

Lephyr: Fair enough.

As an aside, I feel obligated to point out that Undertale does have far more realistic lightning; if Frisk's soul was outpacing these, rather than them coming down in one frame, I'd be perfectly fine with scaling (at least at that point in the story). I think this heavily indicates that it's not an artistic limitation preventing the Vulkin stuff from being more realistic, it's an artistic choice to have theirs be more fake.

The supersonic(+) feat comes exactly from that, but assuming that lightning is electricity based off the exact same minus some arguments that the lightning justification has... reverting them to supersonic would be just double standards. I'm pretty sure in case the justification for lightning being natural will be deemed untrue, then the appropriate rating for the speed for the entire verse will be Average Human (besides God Tiers, of course).

This is just confusing me. There's still the meteor feat which I take zero issue with conceptually, as their seeming teleportation in presents a realistic enough justification for high speeds (I'm still a bit sus on what exact number to put on those high speeds, as you can see in my comments for the calc, but idk enough to offer a better suggestion), and Papyrus running across his house which I take zero issue with.

My suggested ratings might be a bit off, but I don't think they'd drop to just Average Human.

The problem actually was Undertale scaling below High 8-C, which is apparently considered a death of any lightning feats on this website, that's why it wasn't accepted.

That was one of the problems mentioned in the 2023 downgrade, but this has been on and off for years, with the other points I mentioned being a large part of that for this time.

I'll just add that the fiction takes many liberties when it comes to elemental powers. There are characters who create fire and electricity out of thin air, following the directions the users specifically say, despite it violating the law of energy conversation, law of mass conservation, and how the fire and electricity are created overall and the real elements do not follow any direction a living being desires and naturally does not follow those patterns. By a similar logic, we would only accept the fire coming from a narutally occured combusting, lightning only from a naturally occured storm, etc.

I don't have quite that all-of-nothing of an approach. If we know that an aspect relevant to the calc is functioning abnormally, we shouldn't be able to use that aspect in a calc. Magically creating fire doesn't mean we can't assume a high temperature, unless that fire has been shown to be safe for ordinary people to touch. And the speed of lightning coming from a magically-created cloud isn't an issue unless the movement of that lightning has been unnaturally tweaked in a way that casts doubt on that speed.

The problem here is that the thunder is a natural property that only lightning has, which is not only the good proof by itself, but also further consistencizes the idea that all of magical attacks in Undertale correspond to their real-world counterparts, as shown in the game. Similarly to as if before a magician that can manipulate its own magic creates light attacks and says "Electromagnetic radiation!" or "Protons!", it would heavily imply that this light is natural and has its properties due to having the properties of a real light (photons/electromagnetic radiation).

I recognise that this is positive evidence, I just view it as relatively weak compared to the counter-evidence.

The verse consistently shows that the elements with a magical origin has its real-life properties, and we have multiple examples of that, which means the same should apply to the lightning. We do not simply concentrate on one incident and draw conclusion for all, we look at the bigger picture. Unless you have notable contradictions, though. If that's the case, present them.

cbf booting up the game to grab a screenshot of this, but Toriel's fireplace has this text, taken from the big text dump:

room_torhouse2
* The fire isn't burning hot...&* Just pleasantly warm.&* You could put your hand inside./%%

And regardless, I don't view the real-life properties of other elements as too important. Many verses have wildly different levels of reality between their different elements. You'll have straightforward ones like water, alongside completely unrealistic ones like "heart".

Straw man. Bombs are not naturally occuring things; these are things human beings created. One can make a bomb that does not explode at all. In Mettaton's case, it's just a bomb-looking device that projects energy in four directions when destroyed.

He calls them bombs in his dialogue. Kinda like how Vulkin said 'thunder' once, wouldn't you agree?

Not at all. Just because it is true for their sizes and direction, which you would expect the monsters, who control their attacks, to reshape in order to fight in a danmaku-like pattern to fight better, it does not mean their speed would be changed. There is a very good reason for them to reshape the size and direction, but there is no meaningful reason for the monster to change the speed from higher value to lower one. It's just illogical.

The method of travel is also different (being discrete bolts, rather than connecting strands that meet), which I think is enough difference in movement to justify being treated as different speeds.

Those meteors have a magical origin and do not have the same sizes as the real meteors. Also, they could have just spawned with fire, yk.

I don't like jumping to explanations like these as long as ones which hold fiction as adhering to reality remain strong enough.

Also, real meteors come in all sizes :3

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

As an aside, I feel obligated to point out that Undertale does have far more realistic lightning; if Frisk's soul was outpacing these, rather than them coming down in one frame, I'd be perfectly fine with scaling (at least at that point in the story). I think this heavily indicates that it's not an artistic limitation preventing the Vulkin stuff from being more realistic, it's an artistic choice to have theirs be more fake.

This lightning moves at Immeasurable speeds... not something you would expect from a real one.

This is just confusing me. There's still the meteor feat which I take zero issue with, since the portals opening them up present a realistic enough justification for high speeds

Meteors are not natural due to the reasons I mentioned above.

Those meteors have a magical origin and do not have the same sizes as the real meteors. Also, they could have just spawned with fire, yk.

and Papyrus running across his house which I take zero issue with.

That only applies to Papyrus' Toon Forcy speed amp. Nothing suggests that he used this in combat. Also this is Travel Speed feat, not Combat Speed.
Therefore, it would drop to Average Human.

That was one of the problems mentioned in the 2023 downgrade, but this has been on and off for years, with the other points I mentioned being a large part of that for this time.

Low 7-C ratings were due to assuming it was the lightning, not vice versa, and the assumption came from lesser proofs that it has now. Also, that KE calc does not fit KE Rules of this wiki anyways, and I know you know this.

I don't have quite that all-of-nothing of an approach. If we know that an aspect relevant to the calc is functioning abnormally, we shouldn't be able to use that aspect in a calc.

But there is a justification for them acting abnormally, to which I'll go over below.. We did not just ignore it, we actually addressed it.

Magically creating fire doesn't mean we can't assume a high temperature, unless that fire has been shown to be safe for ordinary people to touch. And the speed of lightning coming from a magically-created cloud isn't an issue unless the movement of that lightning has been unnaturally tweaked in a way that casts doubt on that speed.

Technically, all of those would have unnatural origins, meaning that they were not created from combustion or differences in charges but just magic, which contradict the properties of fire/lightning in its very core, making them unvalid.

I recognise that this is positive evidence, I just view it as relatively weak compared to the counter-evidence.

I see, but the counter-evidence is explained, to which I'll, again, go over below.

cbf booting up the game to grab a screenshot of this, but Toriel's fireplace has this text, taken from the big text dump:

This is a proof of her being capable of controling her fire as she wants, which actually supports my point — monsters have clear control over their magic. But as I understood, you intended to use it as counter-argument, so I'm afraid it does not work — as noted in the Discussion Rule, her fire actually burns, which, as I said earlier, just shows that Toriel has control over her fire, further consistencizing our ideas.

And regardless, I don't view the real-life properties of other elements as too important. Many verses have wildly different levels of reality between their different elements. You'll have straightforward ones like water, alongside completely unrealistic ones like "heart".

The problem is: their issue is that they have a clear contradiction, while in our case it can be explained by monsters being capable to manipulate magic in whatever way they want. You'd need an explicit contradiction for Undertale's case, such as lightning being below High 8-C in AP, or something similar.

He calls them bombs in his dialogue. Kinda like how Vulkin said 'thunder' once, wouldn't you agree?

Bombs, again, are not natural elements like fire, electricity or lightning. Also one would be able to call bomb-shaped structure a bomb, while nobody would call no-sound as thunder.

The method of travel is also different (being discrete bolts, rather than connecting strands that meet), which I think is enough difference in movement to justify being treated as different speeds.

That's what I meant by shape, though?

I don't like jumping to explanations like these as long as ones which hold fiction as adhering to reality remain strong enough.

Also, real meteors come in all sizes :3

I mean, they were nowhere stated to be on fire specifically due to speed, they spawned already being on fire. They also are far below than the height expected to be to start the ablation, and we don't know if those meteors are actually created out of materials real meteors are made of. They are magical in the very origin.

It's more about being consistent: if you want to remove MHS+ due to the magical attacks not being real, then do the same for all of the feats of magical nature.

 

[Agnaa]

That only applies to Papyrus' Toon Forcy speed amp. Nothing suggests that he used this in combat. Also this is Travel Speed feat, not Combat Speed.
Therefore, it would drop to Average Human.

He reacts to things and changes direction rapidly, so I'd expect him to be able to use that movement during combat.

Low 7-C ratings were due to assuming it was the lightning, not vice versa, and the assumption came from lesser proofs that it has now. Also, that KE calc does not fit KE Rules of this wiki anyways, and I know you know this.

I was linking that thread to show an example of people pointing out the lightning's appearance for treating it as non-real in the past. idk why you're bringing up other parts of it.

Technically, all of those would have unnatural origins, meaning that they were not created from combustion or differences in charges but just magic, which contradict the properties of fire/lightning in its very core, making them unvalid.

As I've already said, I don't think the origin is an instant disqualifier.

This is a proof of her being capable of controling her fire as she wants, which actually supports my point — monsters have clear control over their magic. But as I understood, you intended to use it as counter-argument, so I'm afraid it does not work — as noted in the Discussion Rule, her fire actually burns, which, as I said earlier, just shows that Toriel has control over her fire, further consistencizing our ideas.

Funnily enough, the stovetop being clean in your link due to it being fire magic shows that it's not realistic; real fire would dirty it due to residue from the fuel it burns. Magical fire which burns nothing, would leave nothing, despite that not being reconcilable with real-world physics.

But as I said, I don't think "they can control and create unrealistic things, alongside realistic things" means we should assume high realistic speeds for them. It seems like your counterargument to that is the idea that these things are spawned realistic, and then magically tweaked to being fake, but I could imagine it operating differently. We lack too much info on the magic system to say anything concrete, so I don't think you should implicitly assert that method of operation.

Bombs, again, are not natural elements like fire, electricity or lightning.

I never said it was. I was just talking about magical attacks in general, like the discussion rule does, by bringing up bones.

Also one would be able to call bomb-shaped structure a bomb, while nobody would call no-sound as thunder.

I think you've lost the original point of this line of inquiry.

1. Other magical attacks are real so this one is real.
2. We should judge magical attacks by themselves when possible. I wouldn't say that all other magical attacks are fake just because Mettaton's bombs are.
3. Mettaton's attack isn't a bomb, it just looks like one.
4. Dialogue confirms that it's a bomb.

Or at least, I don't see how this part of your post fits into that broader context.

I mean, they were nowhere stated to be on fire specifically due to speed, they spawned already being on fire. They also are far below than the height expected to be to start the ablation, and we don't know if those meteors are actually created out of materials real meteors are made of. They are magical in the very origin.

Still, the visuals seem to imply they're being teleported in, which satisfies me. I don't need to know that the material is real, I just need to have no evidence that it's fake.

It's more about being consistent: if you want to remove MHS+ due to the magical attacks not being real, then do the same for all of the feats of magical nature.

It's not "magic means it's inherently unreliable", it's "magic provides an explanation for why it can exist despite being unreliable", or smth like that.

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

@Agnaa By the way, when are you going to put a vote tally?

 

[Agnaa]

When discussion draws to an end.

 

[WizardPowers101]

The problem here is that the thunder is a natural property that only lightning has, which is not only the good proof by itself, but also further consistencizes the idea that all of magical attacks in Undertale correspond to their real-world counterparts, as shown in the game. Similarly to as if before a magician that can manipulate its own magic creates light attacks and says "Electromagnetic radiation!" or "Protons!", it would heavily imply that this light is natural and has its properties due to having the properties of a real light (photons/electromagnetic radiation).

I would like to point out how this doesn't necessarily mean anything + really wrong.

You wanna make an argument out of thunder being a natural property that only lighting has...yet the comparsion you use to justify it isn't justifiable at all.

Photons is different from Thunder, as thunder is simply a sound (which btw, we never hear inside of Undertale). Thunder in essence is just the byproduct of lighting happening in the first place. Photons are quite literally inherently tied to light itself.

Even so, your example doesn't prove anything: just because it seems like it's consistent with the ability doesn't mean it is correct to use. You still need evidence to prove how either scenario can increase one's speed rating.

You would also need to prove that its actual photons, rather than going off of word of mouth, as that's not enough to indicate anything. We can't just go off a presupposition you made up, otherwise this is just begging the question.

"It's valid if there's mention of thunder"

 

[Agnaa]

Photons is different from Thunder, as thunder is simply a sound (which btw, we never hear inside of Undertale).

Funnily enough, we do actually hear it; during Asriel's more realistic lightning attacks.

Even so, your example doesn't prove anything: just because it seems like it's consistent with the ability doesn't mean it is correct to use. You still need evidence to prove how either scenario can increase one's speed rating.

You would also need to prove that its actual photons, rather than going off of word of mouth, as that's not enough to indicate anything. We can't just go off a presupposition you made up, otherwise this is just begging the question.

As a site, we're generally not that strict. I'd say that thunder is weaker evidence than photons, as sounds akin to thunder can occur with lesser degrees of electricity (they're just less loud, but if you hear the electricity a few meters away, and the thunder dozens of meters away, they'd be quite similar). But still, evidence pointing towards the real thing, even if that evidence doesn't directly relate to speed, makes it easier to assume it is the real thing for the sake of speed.

Similarly, "prove" feels like a strong word. It's fiction, so all we have is evidence, and "word of mouth" (that is still written into the story by its author) is solid evidence.

EDIT: Oh hey, I just remembered what Vulkin's "Thunder!" reminded me of; in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, Luigi's quite unrealistic lightning power is accompanied by him saying "Thunder!"

I realise this is a completely different game, but it merely goes to indicate the general media trend. Electric powers are associated with words like "thunder" even when clearly not involving actual lightning, so I don't give statements like that very much weight.

To be clear, I would give a statement or bit of narration showing that thunder was heard by characters a lot more weight. It's just those sorts of attack names (like the prevalent thunderclap) and exclamations that are particularly weak for me.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

He reacts to things

He does not, he just runs.

and changes direction rapidly

Similarly to how stopping exactly in one spot does not scale Travel to Combat speed, this is not a proof.

so I'd expect him to be able to use that movement during combat.

He does not even move tbf... like, he just STANDS, unlike others.

I was linking that thread to show an example of people pointing out the lightning's appearance for treating it as non-real in the past.

Ah, okay.

As I've already said, I don't think the origin is an instant disqualifier.

It does, since the origin is how it was created in the first place and thus is its core property.

Funnily enough, the stovetop being clean in your link due to it being fire magic shows that it's not realistic; real fire would dirty it due to residue from the fuel it burns. Magical fire which burns nothing, would leave nothing, despite that not being reconcilable with real-world physics.

The point was that she just makes pies with her own fire instead of using stovetop, that's why it's so clean, LOL.

But as I said, I don't think "they can control and create unrealistic things, alongside realistic things" means we should assume high realistic speeds for them. It seems like your counterargument to that is the idea that these things are spawned realistic, and then magically tweaked to being fake, but I could imagine it operating differently. We lack too much info on the magic system to say anything concrete, so I don't think you should implicitly assert that method of operation.

The counterargument was that they can shape their magic despite them all having the properties of their real counterparts, and the reason why speed would be unchanged is that there is no reason too — shape and size are changed to make a harder fight, while reducing their speed would be non-sencial from monsters' perspective. There is literally not a single reason for Vulkin to slow down his attacks, genuinely.
AKA, just give an answer to this simple question: why exactly would Vulkin slow down his attacks?

I never said it was. I was just talking about magical attacks in general, like the discussion rule does, by bringing up bones.

Fair enough.

I think you've lost the original point of this line of inquiry.

1. Other magical attacks are real so this one is real.
2. We should judge magical attacks by themselves when possible. I wouldn't say that all other magical attacks are fake just because Mettaton's bombs are.
3. Mettaton's attack isn't a bomb, it just looks like one.
4. Dialogue confirms that it's a bomb.

Or at least, I don't see how this part of your post fits into that broader context.

There are real bombs in Undertale anyways. So it's simply MTT manipulating his own magic to act that way.

Still, the visuals seem to imply they're being teleported in, which satisfies me. I don't need to know that the material is real, I just need to have no evidence that it's fake. It's not "magic means it's inherently unreliable", it's "magic provides an explanation for why it can exist despite being unreliable", or smth like that.

The point was that if you declare MHS+ dead and magic having real life properties, then you should do it for all of monsters' magic, otherwise it is double standards.

I would like to point out how this doesn't necessarily mean anything + really wrong.

You wanna make an argument out of thunder being a natural property that only lighting has...yet the comparsion you use to justify it isn't justifiable at all.

Photons is different from Thunder, as thunder is simply a sound (which btw, we never hear inside of Undertale). Thunder in essence is just the byproduct of lighting happening in the first place. Photons are quite literally inherently tied to light itself.

Even so, your example doesn't prove anything: just because it seems like it's consistent with the ability doesn't mean it is correct to use. You still need evidence to prove how either scenario can increase one's speed rating.

Thunder is a direct property attributed only to lightning, same as photons. Just because they are properties in a different ways does not make them non-properties.

You would also need to prove that its actual photons, rather than going off of word of mouth, as that's not enough to indicate anything. We can't just go off a presupposition you made up, otherwise this is just begging the question.

By that logic, none of the statements would ever work, even "this light moves at 3000000 m/s", as seconds very cetrainly will not be defined as the duration of 9192631770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom within fiction, and even if it is, caesium-133 aton should be defined as real one within fiction as well, etc... you would simply make all of fiction needlessly downplayed (except for your favorites who you will excuse from such strict rules, I suppose)

"It's valid if there's mention of thunder"

If you cared enough, you would see in the wiki that it is not a sole reason, unfortunately for you.

Funnily enough, we do actually hear it; during Asriel's more realistic lightning attacks.

As I said, Asriel and his attacks are all Immeasurable in speed.

EDIT: Oh hey, I just remembered what Vulkin's "Thunder!" reminded me of; in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, Luigi's quite unrealistic lightning power is accompanied by him saying "Thunder!"

I realise this is a completely different game, but it merely goes to indicate the general media trend. Electric powers are associated with words like "thunder" even when clearly not involving actual lightning, so I don't give statements like that very much weight.

To be clear, I would give a statement or bit of narration showing that thunder was heard by characters a lot more weight. It's just those sorts of attack names (like the prevalent thunderclap) and exclamations that are particularly weak for me.

You would have a point if it was a sole evidence, but I think you already know that this is not the case, the pieces of evidence work as supportive to each other adding up to a good proof.

 

[Agnaa]

Responding to things that would get new-ish/interesting responses.

He does not, he just runs.

He changes which way he runs in response to Frisk entering/leaving that area.

Similarly to how stopping exactly in one spot does not scale Travel to Combat speed, this is not a proof.

Those are very different. Stopping precisely can be done with a great degree of precision, and slow deceleration over a long distance. Repeatedly stopping and starting requires the capacity for high acceleration and deceleration, which allows the speed to be used in shorter timeframes than travel.

The point was that she just makes pies with her own fire instead of using stovetop, that's why it's so clean, LOL.

There's other food to make than pies (those go in the oven, not the stovetop), and I'd believe that she'd make other stovetop foods on the stovetop, just with magical fire instead of gas.

The counterargument was that they can shape their magic despite them all having the properties of their real counterparts, and the reason why speed would be unchanged is that there is no reason too — shape and size are changed to make a harder fight, while reducing their speed would be non-sencial from monsters' perspective. There is literally not a single reason for Vulkin to slow down his attacks, genuinely.
AKA, just give an answer to this simple question: why exactly would Vulkin slow down his attacks?

I already responded to this; you're assuming that monsters create their attacks as perfectly realistic ones, and then magically alter them to be less realistic. We don't know enough about the magic system for that assumption to be supported, and there's other plausible ways it could operate instead.

As I said, Asriel and his attacks are all Immeasurable in speed.

Yes, from other evidence. But if that evidence was not there, I'd say that the presentation of those lightning attacks would suffice for cloud-to-ground lightning speeds. This is to demonstrate that Undertale is a game that can present that sort of evidence when it wishes to. It's not a stylistic decision making the Vulkin lightning fake, since Toby made stylistic-but-real-enough lightning in other fights.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Those are very different. Stopping precisely can be done with a great degree of precision, and slow deceleration over a long distance. Repeatedly stopping and starting requires the capacity for high acceleration and deceleration, which allows the speed to be used in shorter timeframes than travel.

I'll just give one example that should close this: if I can turn around a car when driving it at speeds of 50 km/h, do I gain Superhuman speeds? Will I be able to dodge the car riding to me at 50 km/h speeds without aim-dodging?

There's other food to make than pies (those go in the oven, not the stovetop), and I'd believe that she'd make other stovetop foods on the stovetop, just with magical fire instead of gas.

The point still stands: Toriel uses her own magical fire to cook food for those which are supposed to be used on stovetop.

I already responded to this; you're assuming that monsters create their attacks as perfectly realistic ones, and then magically alter them to be less realistic. We don't know enough about the magic system for that assumption to be supported, and there's other plausible ways it could operate instead.

Toriel can shape her fire into fireballs and spam to attack us in the danmaku-like way.

Yes, from other evidence. But if that evidence was not there, I'd say that the presentation of those lightning attacks would suffice for cloud-to-ground lightning speeds. This is to demonstrate that Undertale is a game that can present that sort of evidence when it wishes to. It's not a stylistic decision making the Vulkin lightning fake, since Toby made stylistic-but-real-enough lightning in other fights.

Still cannot be used as evidence due to them actually being far faster than actual lightning, which disqualifies it from being one. Also, those lightnings are of a different color although they are very close, and the color of lightning changes due to the different environment, not just "because". So it would not qualify as well. There is also no cloud seen for it.

And one thing I completely forgot! As Discussion Rule says, magical electricity in Undertale acts just like the real one. Which even further consistencizes all of the other arguments.

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

And one thing I completely forgot! As Discussion Rule says, magical electricity in Undertale acts just like the real one. Which even further consistencizes all of the other arguments.

The Discussion Rule is considered as null in the thread, at least from what the staff said since, well, the whole point of this RCT is to downgrade UT's speed and, if the RCT is accepted, to change the discussion rule.

But since the discussion rule couldn't allow it, it was considered as null for this thread.

Or are you speaking about another one?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

The Discussion Rule is considered as null in the thread, at least from what the staff said since, well, the whole point of this RCT is to downgrade UT's speed and, if the RCT is accepted, to change the discussion rule.

But since the discussion rule couldn't allow it, it was considered as null for this thread.

Or are you speaking about another one?

It is considered "null" is a sense that it does not forbid Agnaa from making a CRT on it cuz he's a mod, this does not mean all of the evidence used in it is invalid lol.

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

It is considered "null" is a sense that it does not forbid Agnaa from making a CRT on it cuz he's a mod, this does not mean all of the evidence used in it is invalid lol.

Isn't a Discussion Rule supposed to prevent someone from discussing about something? In that case, how can it "contain" evidence?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Isn't a Discussion Rule supposed to prevent someone from discussing about something? In that case, how can it "contain" evidence?

I genuinely don't understand what you mean. Are you asking how can Discussion Rule provide evidence? Just read through any of them, all of them do provide evidence to give a better picture to why this rule exists.

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

I genuinely don't understand what you mean. Are you asking how can Discussion Rule provide evidence? Just read through any of them, all of them do provide evidence to give a better picture to why this rule exists.

Apologies, I hadn't understood your words properly. Nevermind what I said then.