Undertale Speed: Possible Downgrade

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

Introduction
But why do I do this thread, some could ask?

Long story short, this Revision Content Thread was accepted, upgrading Undertale's speed tiering to Massively Hypersonic+ for most characters and monsters. However, some people and I were discussing this thread on Discord and if Undertale truly should be granted such speed. I was standing on the side of the thread, thinking it was right, but after discussion we have come to the conclusion Undertale should not be ranked with this speed as we have found some counterarguments.

If you need a reminder of the thread, you can click on the link I've previously given and read quickly through it.

That said, allow me to begin, first with a rebuttal to the arguments:

Spoiler: Massively Hypersonic+ speed's Rebuttal

I am going to give a seperated rebuttal to each of the fourth arguments, which were the following:

• Vulkin himself saying “Thunder!” right before doing his lightning attacks. These two articles explain that thunder cannot actually occur without a real lightning.
• Those attacks come from a cloud.
• We also know in Undertale Magic are actual elements which is shown to us when Toriel manipulates Fire or Papyrus creates actual Bones which is accepted in this wiki (see Rebuttal).
• Vulkin himself is currently rated as 8-B. (The whole main reason of this feat being rejected as lightning feat was due to Vulkin being below 8-C at the time. Now this changed, meaning it’s out of the way)

First Argument
The first one already cannot work because it is a nominal fallacy (from Wikipedia: "The nominal fallacy, also known as the naming-explaining fallacy, is a logical fallacy in which it is incorrectly assumed that giving something a name is tantamount to explaining it), so I don't need to argue much more I suppose.

Second Argument
My rebuttal for the second one is that we cannot know if the cloud from which the lightning bolts are shot is really one, or at least that it works like a real cloud that'd shoot real lightning. First, the cloud adorns a smile and its shape is pretty much simplified, as you can see in the following picture (was taken from a blog):

I know, some could say that it's just a game and that it has to be simplified; others could also say the smile shape is a coincidence and that this is a cloud. And as such, that's when the main part of this rebuttal comes: lightning-charged clouds cannot form underground. The following screenshot will illustrate my thoughts:

Clouds that form at the ground level are not any clouds, they form what is called "fog," and fog is not charged in lightning (it is a pretty obvious thing but, for those who want details, maybe this Quora can help you). However, let's remember that we are not merely at the ground level, but also in the Underground, a place that is even under the ground and where the only natural clouds one may see are fogs. Reminding what the verse page says (I always bold in the quotes the parts that interest us):

In Undertale, players control a human child who has climbed Mt. Ebott and fallen into the Underground: a large, secluded region underneath the surface of the Earth separated by a magic barrier.

This means that the cloud created by Vulkin can only be of magical nature, or else it would be a fog and would thus not be able to shoot lightning. However, if the cloud is magical, so the lightning it shoots is too, meaning the lightning bolts do not act as real lightning and, thus, we cannot use lightning formulas for speed.

Cloud-to-ground lightning is considered to be real lightning, as long there is nothing suggesting otherwise.

Third Argument
For the third argument, I need to include the rebuttal to the sole counterargument that was mentioned, so here I go.

Counterargument

Those lightning bolts do not behave or look like how the real lightning should.

Thread's Counterargument Rebuttal

We have a note on Undertale verse page:

Vulkin's electricity and Knight Knight's meteors were accepted as valid due to monster magic being showcased multiple times to be the same as their real counterparts, such as the fire magic from Torieland Pyrope working as real fire, Sans and Papyrus' bones being actual ones or Mettaton using actual electricity from his core due to him being a robot.

Electricity does not travel like that too, however this wiki accepts those attacks being real electricity just fine. Same thing should be done to the argument that it is a real lightning.

Moreover, monsters do use magic, and although it is same as their real counterparts, it does not mean that they can’t manipulate it to apply those attacks better in combat (in Vulkin’s case, to use them in Danmaku style to attack Frisk). For example, fire does not naturally come in fireballs and obviously does not move like it does in Toriel’s fight, the reason why these fire attacks act this way is due to Toriel manipulating her magic to shape fire and direct it, so why can’t Vulkin do the same?

Alright, now that this is reminded, here comes my own rebuttal, or so to speak the rebuttal of the rebuttal. Monster Magic was not showcased to be the same as its real counterparts if we follow the examples that are given and nothing ever stated it.

From the Monster Physiology page:

Magic, Inorganic Physiology (Type 1) and Danmaku: Monsters' bodies, compared to human ones, do not have much physical matter because of them being made of magic to the same degree humans are made of water, being able to use their magic in various ways like making bullet patterns, which are showcased in most of their fights, with them also being able to control said magic.

This means that monsters are made of magic and so are the attacks they use. This means that Toriel's fire is magical, Pyrope's fire is magical, Sans and Papyrus's bones are magical, Vulkin's electricity is magical, and this without anything showing the contrary.

The only one I would accept this for is Toriel because she uses her fire to cook meals, which real fire would (and even then, that can be refuted to merely temperature manipulation since the context isn't high in quantity or quality either). However, we cannot assume every monsters with elemental-like magic has their magic working like its real counterparts just because one monster did, it is ridiculous.

For Pyrope, I clicked the video and it had... nothing? Maybe I skipped a moment, but all I saw was the fight with a monster. Was the argument about the fact it looks like it is made of flames? If so, I kindly would like to remind those would be magical flames, since monsters are made of magic.

For Sans and Papyrus's bones, I don't even get what's the argument for the bones to be real. Is it because Papyrus was able to put them in a box? Magic doesn't mean they have to be non-physical, and so magical bones could perfectly be put within a box too.

And as for Mettaton, the choice of video was pretty confusing. Did we assume that because Mettaton's core shot lightning bolts? Then there is still the same issue: is it even real electricity or real lightning? Nothing states so. Magical electricity can also perfectly power up a machine, but since it's magical we cannot assume it will have all the same properties as real electricity.

That said, we cannot assume directly that the lightning of any monster in the Underground is real, and thus the probability for Vulkin's lightning to be magical only gets higher. It also explains the electricity's weird direction, by the way.

Fourth Argument
How does an Attack Potency/Tiering rating relate to one's capability to manipulate real lightning in any single way? This is completely unrelated and useless. I may have missed something, but as it is said purely in the thread, nothing shows how it should relate.

The only relation I could find is the energy lightning would produce, but even then that's not how you calculate energy with lightning: you need ampere, volts and stuff.

Let me know if you find anything regarding this, but for now I am simply ignoring this argument due to how stupid it looks compared to the rest.

Now that this rebuttal is done, here is what the proposal would be:

Spoiler: Proposal

• If this thread gets accepted, we should change the speed tiers of most characters, since those with Massively Hypersonic+ speed will be downgraded. I'd suggest to look back at the old speed tiers, which if I remember correctly were around Supersonic. This indeed will need some work.
• Aside from that, if it gets accepted and thanks to what this thread shows, the note on Undertale's page is useless and incorrect since Monster Magic doesn't behave like its real counterparts, aside from Toriel who is the sole exception I could find.

That's all for me currently. I may add more after future discussions.

For now, I end this with the vote tally:

Spoiler: Vote Tally

(Note that the staff will have their usernames bolded.)
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

P.S: If I've made any mistake, that you have any advice to improve this thread, or the like, please let me know; it's the first time I make a Revision Content Thread and it has not been long since I joined this forum either, so mistakes might be present.