This only for you though. Your ""reasons"" are more excuses that try to dismiss all the context and lore the monsters have about emulating the elements, and try to shut down any kind of possibility that these are still going at real speeds, rather than just taking the time to consider both the intent made behind the attack, and the fact that the attack must be used in its most efficient way, aka 0 reasons to say it's lower outside of visuals.
Have you considered the possibility that the attack, differing from reality, may, at its most efficient, only be able to travel slowly?
Why would it? Genuinely, why? Because you say so?
Lmao.
Don't use "we", as right now only you are going by this super safe, super strict method. I already explained why we should, and I am feeling like I am repeating myself.
I'm not saying that we should. I'm pointing out an alternative which I don't hold, to highlight the absurdity of the assumption you make with just as little evidence.
No, our calcs do that sort of thing all the time. We don't pretend that characters in comics only moved 0.00000000001 meters before they were hit, we say that they started moving at the last moment we saw them still, even though there's no more evidence for that than there is for any arbitrarily closer distance.
Dude, you're just arguing off belief. You call it absurd, I call it the most logical way, as your option is just to completely negate the feat and pretend it just doesn't exist, when the intent behind it is clear.
Literal false equivalence, as that's a number pulled out of nowhere, my case instead is a set number gotten by a real value.
He said he prefers to wait for me, like Griffin. Aka it's just Ant on your side.
You realise you made this point separate from the intent, right?
Bringing up the intent here is circular.
Fair enough. Still, in cases where there's multiple numbers pulled from real values, if there's no evidence making one of them stand out, we defer to the lowest end.
Ah yeah, mb.
As others are casting votes before this discussion is over (Planck and DDM), I will state plainly that I agree with Agnaa on practically all fronts. I think it is ridiculous to treat the status quo as "super-strict"- we do take the most conservative, reasonable choice, typically meaning the lower end interpretation of feats, in most any affair where such a choice exists. We do require the burden of proof upon those making the extraordinary claim- in this instance, that the shout of "thunder!" indicates real, actual lightning. In this discussion so far, only one of you has represented what VSBW actually tends to embody, that being Agnaa.
Outlier would be if it's blatantly contradicted by other showings, or them struggling with less, which did not happen.
Yep! It definitely should.
Yeah I don't get the vibe of it being wild enough to be rejected on that front, especially since it has multiple superhuman speed showings, especially if you use the less strict standards the proponents of this speed rating would use. And I don't remember any real speed anti-feats; racking my brain, closest I can imagine are the timed Mettaton minigames, whose timers seem more for player use and are themselves demonstrably unreal.
My vote counts too, btw.
Naw, these sorts of changes for profiles usually just get dragged in front of increasingly large amounts of staff.
The certain banned user used Photoshop Flowey using guns, which is, you know, dumb because you'd be arguing for it being 9-C (other than Flowey then blitzing tf outta Frisk the moment he went serious).
Does it? I don't recall staff being able to vote on their own CRTs, but my memory could be betraying me.
The lower end of the feat is 4.86 Mach, with every major character (Undyne in both her forms, Asgore, Toriel, Mettaton, Muffet, Mad Dummy, Great DT Frisk and probably base Flowey) being baseline Hypersonic with Mach 5 via upscaling. Sans and Photoshop Flowey instead would be 6.1 Mach, still going by the calc I linked (or Mach 10, if Frisk's base speed is Mach 5 in those fights).
Mach 10 comes from the Sea Tea amping the speed to x2, Sans being still generally faster than an amped Frisk, and Photoshop Flowey blitzing Sans.
No. I'm not. Stop being so accusatory. I'm saying that I would have preferred to wait. And I then said that you were leveraging that to imply nobody agreed with Agnaa. And now I'm repeating it. For clarity's sake.
I think that's bad, since it's not a usable (stated) multiplier. Still fine to use in calcs for fights where Sea Tea can be used to that effect, tho.
The thing is already accepted, so you'd need to make a thread for it.
Staff only, right? Because I remember giving my agreement to the RCT.
Yes. Your vote, just like mine, don't matter.
I did, but there has been movement with you and Agnaa speaking, so I thought there could have been counterarguments that were countered.
This didn't work, funnily enough.
It's just something that the community has flip-flopped on a lot over the years, imo without good reason. When it got changed from not accepted to accepted, it got changed on 2 staff votes, neither of which were present the previous time it was discussed (despite there being at least 3 staff members who rejected it last time still on the site). I'd like something to be present to make sure that any future alterations grapple with the arguments presented last time; maybe just a note in the verse page's speed section?
Point got a bit muddled and dragged out, but it was just "it moves and was created in unrealistic ways, so we shouldn't assume realistic speeds". I was actually tryna say that the idea that Vulkin made it slower was wrong :v (as those who disagreed with me were arguing "okay monsters can manipulate attacks, why would they do that to make them slower?")
Huh, I thought I made a thread about this but apparently I haven't.
Stop right here bud. We technically do generally use MHS+ for bolts shot from hands if the dude is strong enough.
Is that true? I only remember that being done for cases where characters can both manipulate real cloud-to-ground lightning, as well as shoot it from their hands, in the same way.
Yes.
vsbattles.fandom.com
vsbattles.fandom.com
On this I don't care enough if it's removed or reworded. Though I do see a point here, would be appropriate if it's something like multiple attempts at removing the 2-B ratings of the God Tiers tho.
"We use" doesn't mean much to me. There's 35000 profiles and nearly a thousand editors active in the wiki's recent history, some people doing it (on fairly niche profiles especially) isn't really evidence of anything (I mean there's a LOT of things you can easily find even on recent profiles that aren't really correct). And in this case I think there's a lot more evidence of the opposite, given that we don't rate... literally every =>8-C verse with electricity attacks as MHS+.
Honestly I feel that the standards might need some rewording. Most of those aren't really properties of specifically lightning, just electricity in general, so while they're fine to use if something is lightning-like in other ways, I don't think an 8-C standard electricity attack doing stuff like making muscles twitch or conducting like electricity should prove it to be MHS+.
