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Undertale MHS Downgrade

This makes the pro-assume-it's-real argument stronger, since there is actual a canonical case of it being done realistically. Vulkin's is even worse, since they lack that. And for Vulkin, the reasons to assume it's not real full-speed lightning are presented in the OP, and all throughout the thread.
This only for you though. Your ""reasons"" are more excuses that try to dismiss all the context and lore the monsters have about emulating the elements, and try to shut down any kind of possibility that these are still going at real speeds, rather than just taking the time to consider both the intent made behind the attack, and the fact that the attack must be used in its most efficient way, aka 0 reasons to say it's lower outside of visuals.
 
and the fact that the attack must be used in its most efficient way, aka 0 reasons to say it's lower outside of visuals.
Have you considered the possibility that the attack, differing from reality, may, at its most efficient, only be able to travel slowly?

That's the crux of my point about your baseless assumption that unrealistic attacks are made real and then changed to be unrealistic. We don't know that about the magic system. It's also very plausible that they're made unrealistic from the get-go, and cannot be made realistic due to a lack of skill/magic.

Since we have no evidence distinguishing these possibilities, we should not assume the high-end.
 
Have you considered the possibility that the attack, differing from reality, may, at its most efficient, only be able to travel slowly?
Why would it? Genuinely, why? Because you say so?
That's the crux of my point about your baseless assumption that unrealistic attacks are made real and then changed to be unrealistic. We don't know that about the magic system. It's also very plausible that they're made unrealistic from the get-go, and cannot be made realistic due to a lack of skill/magic.
Lmao.
Since we have no evidence distinguishing these possibilities, we should not assume the high-end.
Don't use "we", as right now only you are going by this super safe, super strict method. I already explained why we should, and I am feeling like I am repeating myself.

If you still wanna have the last word on this, then peace.
 
Why would it? Genuinely, why? Because you say so?
I'm not saying that we should. I'm pointing out an alternative which I don't hold, to highlight the absurdity of the assumption you make with just as little evidence.
Don't use "we", as right now only you are going by this super safe, super strict method. I already explained why we should, and I am feeling like I am repeating myself.
No, our calcs do that sort of thing all the time. We don't pretend that characters in comics only moved 0.00000000001 meters before they were hit, we say that they started moving at the last moment we saw them still, even though there's no more evidence for that than there is for any arbitrarily closer distance.

And hey, it's not just me. Just from the staff, Ant and Bambu agree, and LordGriffin said he thinks I have valid points, but wanted to wait for responses.
 
I'm not saying that we should. I'm pointing out an alternative which I don't hold, to highlight the absurdity of the assumption you make with just as little evidence.
Dude, you're just arguing off belief. You call it absurd, I call it the most logical way, as your option is just to completely negate the feat and pretend it just doesn't exist, when the intent behind it is clear.
No, our calcs do that sort of thing all the time. We don't pretend that characters in comics only moved 0.00000000001 meters before they were hit, we say that they started moving at the last moment we saw them still, even though there's no more evidence for that than there is for any arbitrarily closer distance.
Literal false equivalence, as that's a number pulled out of nowhere, my case instead is a set number gotten by a real value.
He said he prefers to wait for me, like Griffin. Aka it's just Ant on your side.
 
Dude, you're just arguing off belief. You call it absurd, I call it the most logical way, as your option is just to completely negate the feat and pretend it just doesn't exist, when the intent behind it is clear.
You realise you made this point separate from the intent, right?
rather than just taking the time to consider both the intent made behind the attack, and the fact that the attack must be used in its most efficient way
Bringing up the intent here is circular.

So going based on the rest of it, you're lobbing off fallacies where they don't apply with "arguing off belief", I see nothing logical about taking the highest end with no basis, and it's not completely negating the feat, just disjointing the link to reality in terms of its properties. It can still get properties from other places in the piece of fiction itself; it's a danmaku attack with Vulkin's AP and attack speed.
Literal false equivalence, as that's a number pulled out of nowhere, my case instead is a set number gotten by a real value.
Fair enough. Still, in cases where there's multiple numbers pulled from real values, if there's no evidence making one of them stand out, we defer to the lowest end.
He said he prefers to wait for me, like Griffin. Aka it's just Ant on your side.
Ah yeah, mb.
 
You're just repeating yourself, and my patience is wearing thin, so I'll avoid replying with the exact same things.

I'll probably reply again when I'll get time, if staff don't decide to reply before I do.
 
He said he prefers to wait for me, like Griffin. Aka it's just Ant on your side.
As others are casting votes before this discussion is over (Planck and DDM), I will state plainly that I agree with Agnaa on practically all fronts. I think it is ridiculous to treat the status quo as "super-strict"- we do take the most conservative, reasonable choice, typically meaning the lower end interpretation of feats, in most any affair where such a choice exists. We do require the burden of proof upon those making the extraordinary claim- in this instance, that the shout of "thunder!" indicates real, actual lightning. In this discussion so far, only one of you has represented what VSBW actually tends to embody, that being Agnaa.

I would have preferred to wait for the discussion to end, but it seems to me that my patience is being used to isolate the other argument, as if to say that there is no support for his words. This is obviously untrue, and in posting this I aim to rectify it. Agnaa is blatantly correct, and at every turn the argument has been needlessly aggressive in trying to pummel him away from this.
 
Idk if you technically implying that DDM and Planck are bad admins for simply agreeing with me is something appropriate ngl.

Edit: Technically if we count Ant's vote, then Lephy's should too, as that's against the downgrade as well.
 
Can't we just say that lightning, even if it is natural lightning, does not have a speed of thousands of Machs, at least because it would be an outlier? The characters of Undertale definitely do not have the speed of MHS+ plot-wise. In addition, all their escapes, etc. occur at very normal speeds, combat speed is only possibly supersonic or hypersonic. I heard that if the feat is one-time or the scale of such a feat with such a result is one-time and is not repeated in the work, then it can be considered an outlier. The exception is if it is not the most direct feat.
 
Can't we just say that lightning, even if it is natural lightning, does not have a speed of thousands of Machs, at least because it would be an outlier? The characters of Undertale definitely do not have the speed of MHS+ plot-wise. In addition, all their escapes, etc. occur at very normal speeds, combat speed is only possibly supersonic or hypersonic. I heard that if the feat is one-time or the scale of such a feat with such a result is one-time and is not repeated in the work, then it can be considered an outlier. The exception is if it is not the most direct feat.
Outlier would be if it's blatantly contradicted by other showings, or them struggling with less, which did not happen.

Aka no, don't pull arguments made from a certain banned user.
 
Anyway, the tally rn is:

Agree (2): Antvasima (before the counters), Mr. Bambu

Disagree (3): Lephyr (before the counters), DDM and Planck

Could we say that it's rejected if it takes long enough?
 
Edit: Technically if we count Ant's vote, then Lephy's should too, as that's against the downgrade as well.
Yep! It definitely should.
Outlier would be if it's blatantly contradicted by other showings, or them struggling with less, which did not happen.
Yeah I don't get the vibe of it being wild enough to be rejected on that front, especially since it has multiple superhuman speed showings, especially if you use the less strict standards the proponents of this speed rating would use. And I don't remember any real speed anti-feats; racking my brain, closest I can imagine are the timed Mettaton minigames, whose timers seem more for player use and are themselves demonstrably unreal.
Anyway, the tally rn is:

Agree (2): Antvasima (before the counters), Mr. Bambu

Disagree (3): Lephyr (before the counters), DDM and Planck
My vote counts too, btw.
Could we say that it's rejected if it takes long enough?
Naw, these sorts of changes for profiles usually just get dragged in front of increasingly large amounts of staff.

If it does actually remain split 50/50, since it's the sort of case where this should be possible, it'd probably be dropped to a likely/possibly rating.
 
Yeah I don't get the vibe of it being wild enough to be rejected on that front, especially since it has multiple superhuman speed showings, especially if you use the less strict standards the proponents of this speed rating would use. And I don't remember any real speed anti-feats; racking my brain, closest I can imagine are the timed Mettaton minigames, whose timers seem more for player use and are themselves demonstrably unreal.
The certain banned user used Photoshop Flowey using guns, which is, you know, dumb because you'd be arguing for it being 9-C (other than Flowey then blitzing tf outta Frisk the moment he went serious).
My vote counts too, btw.
Does it? I don't recall staff being able to vote on their own CRTs, but my memory could be betraying me.
Naw, these sorts of changes for profiles usually just get dragged in front of increasingly large amounts of staff.

If it does actually remain split 50/50, since it's the sort of case where this should be possible, it'd probably be dropped to a likely/possibly rating.
The lower end of the feat is 4.86 Mach, with every major character (Undyne in both her forms, Asgore, Toriel, Mettaton, Muffet, Mad Dummy, Great DT Frisk and probably base Flowey) being baseline Hypersonic with Mach 5 via upscaling. Sans and Photoshop Flowey instead would be 6.1 Mach, still going by the calc I linked (or Mach 10, if Frisk's base speed is Mach 5 in those fights).

Just saying in case your thing gets through.
 
The certain banned user used Photoshop Flowey using guns, which is, you know, dumb because you'd be arguing for it being 9-C (other than Flowey then blitzing tf outta Frisk the moment he went serious).
lmao
Does it? I don't recall staff being able to vote on their own CRTs, but my memory could be betraying me.
Yeah
It is understood that there may be instances where a staff member has expertise or knowledge of a particular series verse that allows them to confidently approve a revision on their own. It is possible for a staff member to initiate a content revision thread and have their vote counted.
The lower end of the feat is 4.86 Mach, with every major character (Undyne in both her forms, Asgore, Toriel, Mettaton, Muffet, Mad Dummy, Great DT Frisk and probably base Flowey) being baseline Hypersonic with Mach 5 via upscaling. Sans and Photoshop Flowey instead would be 6.1 Mach, still going by the calc I linked (or Mach 10, if Frisk's base speed is Mach 5 in those fights).

Just saying in case your thing gets through.
Thanks for the info! I don't understand the Mach 10 jump though, but that could be discussed later if necessary.
 
Thanks for the info! I don't understand the Mach 10 jump though, but that could be discussed later if necessary.
Mach 10 comes from the Sea Tea amping the speed to x2, Sans being still generally faster than an amped Frisk, and Photoshop Flowey blitzing Sans.

Now that I think they should be scaling from the x2 of Tsunderplane's MHS+ result by this logic.
 
Idk if you technically implying that DDM and Planck are bad admins for simply agreeing with me is something appropriate ngl.

Edit: Technically if we count Ant's vote, then Lephy's should too, as that's against the downgrade as well.
No. I'm not. Stop being so accusatory. I'm saying that I would have preferred to wait. And I then said that you were leveraging that to imply nobody agreed with Agnaa. And now I'm repeating it. For clarity's sake.
 
Mach 10 comes from the Sea Tea amping the speed to x2, Sans being still generally faster than an amped Frisk, and Photoshop Flowey blitzing Sans.

Now that I think they should be scaling from the x2 of Tsunderplane's MHS+ result by this logic.
I think that's bad, since it's not a usable (stated) multiplier. Still fine to use in calcs for fights where Sea Tea can be used to that effect, tho.

I hope that doesn't become a topic of this thread too
 
I think that's bad, since it's not a usable (stated) multiplier. Still fine to use in calcs for fights where Sea Tea can be used to that effect, tho.
The thing is already accepted, so you'd need to make a thread for it.

Plus Frisk being at least the speed that's above Tsunderplane during Sans' fight should be a given as they were filled with DT there obviously, and that many times showcased to increase speed, meaning that Frisk being somehow slower than how they were during Undying would be dumb.
 
I still agree with what Strym is arguing, but I do agree with a statement on Bambu about a few posts being "Needlessly aggressive." But more staff views could be reasonable yes.
 
Wait, u didn't read the whole thing?

Anyway, in a nutshell, if you're too lazy to read, the monster magic has very minor differences to what it mimics, and there's no reason to assume it'd become slower than the irl counterpart just because it's remodeled as bullets, as that'd be pedantic.

Tho rn it's a 4-3 towards disagreement against OP.
 
Wait, u didn't read the whole thing?

Anyway, in a nutshell, if you're too lazy to read, the monster magic has very minor differences to what it mimics, and there's no reason to assume it'd become slower than the irl counterpart just because it's remodeled as bullets, as that'd be pedantic.

Tho rn it's a 4-3 towards disagreement against OP.
I did, but there has been movement with you and Agnaa speaking, so I thought there could have been counterarguments that were countered.

But thank you for the nutshell.
 
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