Undertale: Going (almost) back to 2016 [most controversial CRT?]

[TheOrangeGuy09]

idfk we don't give to monsters a limited to their extrasensory perception only for being able to perceive the emotions of the SOULs within them either.

Idk then either, but it’s not like Asriel just does smth and his opponent forgets everything

The cosmology blog does not really tackle Photoshop Flowey stuff (I'll wait @Roachman40 for it due to him having made it after all, I know it'll also have to be updated after this CRT methinks).

It’s fine, but can you tell me why exactly Photoshop Flowey‘s saves would be different? I don’t see a solid proof.

1 i agree, but Frisk would gain the abilities like Fear Manip that is currently on Chara's profile as you are arguing they aren't in control all the time, so we would need to see which ones Frisk would gain

Creepy faces is all about Chara as Kid Asriel dialogue says. Chara does possess Frisk, just not all the time

 

[StrymULTRA]

i mean.........i guess? but at the same time, it is more of the player controlling Frisk and Chara just being on the ride doing small stuff

i would be ok with a "possibly Fear Manip"

I'd wait some staff input on this.

more evidence never hurts, right?

Tbh that profile is already pretty wordy, I don't want to put stuff that'd make it even longer.

We don't even see someone with actually 7 SOULs, the most definite solution is Asriel simply using all the monsters SOULs as a replacement for the lacking 7th.

Idk then either, but it’s not like Asriel just does smth and his opponent forgets everything

I suppose, but I don't think people are that dumb to misinterpret it? I'd be ok with changing to Limited tho.

It’s fine, but can you tell me why exactly Photoshop Flowey‘s saves would be different? I don’t see a solid proof.

I think my main concern is him switching even to previous SAVEs, which shouldn't really happen if it all happens across different timelines.

Like he starts with Saving the File 3, then he saves over and over File 2, then LOADs back File 3, and then saves over and over File 6.

Plus even if he did, it'd be only 2-C range and has no proof of him being able to offensively affect multiple timelines at once.

 

[Omegabronic]

But not just that, we have also this, a revamped Asriel profile!

huh, there is one intelligence upgrade i wanted to do for him, would it be ok if i talk about it now or do you think the thread has too much already as is? it is admittedly a simple argument

 

[Roachman40]

Frisk becomes 2-B in AP (for real)

Yeah... Some people who went to know me kinda are aware of how vocal I was for Frisk's AP not being equal to their Durability. Today I wanted to talk about it, because it's a pretty important discussion regarding also the lore interpretation of the verse, given that some new discoveries and thoughts I had made me take a 180° change on it.



For years a harsh debate in the Undertale fandom emerged ever since the release of the game, that being "Who is Chara talking to at the end of the Genocide Route: Frisk or the Player?".

This question has been a mostly unsolved one in the fandom, both in and outside powerscaling places. The reason is because of the scene being able to be interpreted as Chara talking to either of them, with basically nothing changing in the story.

My idea is that both are involved in Chara's conversation. Why?

We have to realize that the only way the Player is able to interact with the Undertale world is using Frisk, who reflects their desires and behavior, depending on the choices we make them do. The prime example in Undertale is Frisk feeling guilty after punching a dummy in the Pacifist route, but feeling good if they do after killing someone before, while in Deltarune instead is Kris, where, after they take their own SOUL from their body, we can still move the SOUL and not their body, and Noelle mentioning that Kris was behaving weirdly, and having a voice that wasn't theirs during the Snowgrave route.

While Kris' relationship with the Player is clearer than Frisk's, the latter is clearly influenced by the Player and does not really oppose us as much as Kris does, even if though sometimes they do things on their own like attempting to SAVE against Asriel without our input.

Now that my point is taken, this is relevant in understanding why Chara was talking with both of Frisk and us.

As @TheOrangeGuy09 pointed here, Chara does not take control over Frisk for the whole Genocide route, but only in few parts, those being Sans' and Asgore's respective fights, where Chara takes over the FIGHT Button on their own without us doing anything, with the main difference being the damage dealg being made of just "9" digits instead of regular amounts of damage which instead are made of various numbers.

Spoiler: Orange's argument and scans

Chara currently is accepted to possess Frisk for the entire Genocide Route. However, this is actually not the case, and they only gain full control after Sans dodges this attack. The reasoning:

• It makes no sense for Chara to possess Frisk in battles before the last hit on Sans. The reasoning is that Sans has Instinctive Action as said on his profile, so Chara, if we assume them fighting during the entire battle, being unable to land a hit on Sans but somehow being able to do so later does not make any sense, as Instinctive Action would make Sans dodge again, even if Chara “broke the rules”. Heck, even going to the FIGHT button like this by itself is breaking the rules of the game, but Sans still manages to dodge that WHILE BEING ASLEEP, while he is awake during the second hit. It would make far more sense if Frisk was fighting the entire battle with Chara helping out in the end and blitzing Sans on the second hit, as Instinctive Action can be countered by speedblitz.
• During Genocide Route before Sans, all of monsters get their health reduced to their minimum and you inflict the exact same damage as they have HP even if you one-shot them (aka, it will not be all nines). However, when we hit Sans, he gets 9999999 damage, despite having 1 HP and 1 DEF. Same goes with Asgore: he gets 9999999999 damage despite having far lower HP. And it was recently revealed that Chara’s favorite number is 9, and they like things like all nines because there is nothing higher than that which means you’re invincible, and these both facts (9999999… ATK thing and Chara’s strong liking of “9” and thinking that a lot of 9s would make them invincible) together very heavily imply that Chara fully possessed Frisk’s body only after landing last hit on Sans. [SCAN I ADDED: Chara, when destroying the game, also deals 999999999999999999999... damage, which cements the consistency of this].
• Last hit on Sans, Asgore and Flowey are made without player (in real life) doing anything, unlike how it was before them.

(Note: Chara does indeed take some control over Frisk before that, but on a weaker level and not in battles)

So, Chara still keeps their possessing Frisk key (as they do still control their body at times before the Sans battle, as said in their justification for possession), but the reasoning for stats should be the following:

• Attack Potency: At least City Block level, likely far higher (Took over the body of a LV 19 Frisk, who defeated Undyne the Undying at a lower LV)
• Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Managed to kill Sans without giving him a chance to react)

Yeah I changed 'em a bit because the Asgore/Flowey bit are instantly before the 2-B nuke, so I assume Chara was just 2-B at that point.

This would technically change Frisk's AP justification with Great DT with them taking on Undyne the Undying and being able to defeat both her and Sans in their intelligence (though Chara should still have that in their intelligence as they did watch the whole thing after all), and changes Undyne the Undying and Sans' hyperlinks from "Chara" to "Frisk" as well in various pages, but that's a minor thing.

The main thing is that Chara must have talked with also Frisk, due to them being still our vessel, and Chara still taking over them both in Genocide and at the end of Soulless Pacifist routes. It makes literally 0 sense for Chara to just pretend that Frisk does not exist in this whole thing, as they were literally part of it, just like we were.

The final piece of evidence that would cement it is that in the Localization Book, it's stated that Frisk uses the same Determination of the Player.

This page isn't exactly the best evidence, as it was not written from Toby Fox, but from Clyde Madelin, who claimed that he cannot answer questions to the game's lore instead of Toby, and that reading too deep into said book can lead in seeing what you want to see, however this statement is interestingly enough supported from some evidence:

• This very interesting page of the demo manual makes a difference between Frisk and the Player, directly calling the SAVE Point as a manifestation of YOUR Determination.
• During the soulless runs, Photoshop Flowey still can use his SAVE and LOAD bullshit other than his other DT-related powers. How can this be if Chara is around with DT equal to his God of Hyperdeath form?

I do think it's clear af that Frisk also shares the Player's DT so they should be 2-B at their peak DT for pretty obvious reason, due to Chara using their DT in order to perform their feat of destroying the game world as said in the Player's page.

However there are some concerns that are worth addressing:

• "But Frisk still has their SOUL after soulless routes, meaning that Chara took instead the Player's."

This isn't a strong argument, given that's not really clear what Chara meant in giving your SOUL. All they do with it is taking over Frisk at the ending of the Soulless Pacifist, which makes me more think that it's a reference in taking ownership of the SOUL (and thus Frisk's actions) rather than them literally pulling a Flowey and eating the SOUL. As said above, the Player controls their puppet through their SOUL, something that the XBOX version hints even more if you disconnect the controller, mentioning how the body parts aren't connected, a clear reference of Frisk's body being controlled from us.

• "Frisk literally died from the game's destruction, you can't say that Chara was talking to them."

There's literally no concrete evidence for Frisk dying from Chara's slash. You can equally argue that Frisk survived the destruction of the game too, and still being unable to do anything because of them being literally in a void now.

• "Frisk couldn't harm Asriel, this is evidence of their DT not amping their AP anyway."

You see, DT matters in increasing stats, but does not tell much about comparing power between DT users on its own. Frisk had obviously more DT than Undyne the Undying, but they were still physically comparable, or Flowey managed to almost one shot Frisk despite having lower DT too.

It just means that Frisk is way weaker than Asriel, and that the latter upscales from them, as Frisk was mostly relying on being resilient against him, thanks to them refusing to die when Asriel kills them (something that he directly mentions, meaning that he's confident in killing us over and over), and Asriel essentially one shotting them with his strongest attack.

• "Frisk forgets stuff after a TRUE RESET, meaning that they don't share the same DT as the Player."

Frisk is the one using the Player's DT. I can argue that the Player is able to RESET Frisk back to their original state, as at that point they were completely disconnected from us, and there's no evidence for them still using our DT at this point, given the game was already over.

This would also completely remove the Note 2 from the Player's page, as it'd be completely outdated at this point.

BTW, this is also a nice scan to Frisk's Social Influencing.

After skimming through it, I dont really mind, sure, 2-B frisk is cool

Low 2-C Photoshop Flowey is also real (+ extras)

For years Photoshop Flowey has been in the mud, forced to be in Tier 7 hell (familiar, isn't it?), with an "Unknown" being used to cope about him being that low. Well, those days are finally over, and he'll be back in being the powerful being he truly is.

I plan to make him Low 2-C. But why. The reason is off him having complete control over the timeline and being capable of overwriting it to his likes. Why is that?

• He erased Frisk's SAVE, and made up his own up to 6 files. SAVE Files represent the timeline that the user has control over, as seen by Frisk still having one even if they never SAVE.

Small gripe with this is that I disagree with SAVE Files representing the timeline the user has control over, I see it moreso representing a checkpoint in the timeline, even then it does show how much control Flowey has over the timeline eitherway so cool.

• Crashed the game and forced its closure, and replaced Frisk's datas with his own, renaming it even "My World", other than renaming it the game Floweytale.

The "My World" thing could be interpreted in a couple ways, being a controller of the SAVE System would make the world your 'plaything' without you being low 2-C exactly, so to speak. Crashing the game and renaming the game Floweytale is interesting however.

Will remain neutral on this.

But not just that, we have also this, a revamped Asriel profile!

It has very little differences compared to the current ones, except:

• The 5 keys are now divided in tabbers including all the main statistics, as the keys aren't merely just power up version of the character, but very different forms each with lenghty explanations. Did something like Denji's profile to make it more readable.
• Better organized the God of Hyperdeath tabber in P&A.
• Removed the "HIgh 7-C when the control over the souls is lost" from P. Flowey's durability, as Flowey clearly wasn't weakened during it and was just pretending to be weaker. When the SOULs actually do make him lose power, he cannot even LOAD anymore.
• Added Existence Erasure on Photoshop Flowey.
  • Existence Erasure (Erased Frisk's SAVE File. Supposedly erased the entire Underground and everything in it, leaving a black void, although it's debateable if it actually happened due to him later admitting that he needs a 7th SOUL to destroy humanity, and if the Barrier was actually limiting him from reaching the outside world)
• Statistics Values, yaaay...!

This also upgrades the Human SOULs and the Underground from their "Unknown, at least Low 7-B" to instead just Low 2-C.

8-B normal monsters/pre-death asriel is evil slop wank btw BUT I DIGRESS!!

Existence Erasure is really my only gripe with this, I disagree with erasing Frisk's SAVE file warranting that due to it moreso being just time manipulation, he is using his power of the save system to override and destroy the previous users checkpoint in time. I've mentioned this before but flowey saying he will show 'everyone' the true meaning of this world once he achieves his newfound powers implies that humans and monsters are still around, and once he gets the 7th SOUL he will show them.

other than that looks good

Amalgamates' speed

Well... this is relatively minor instead. They're full of DT and fight Frisk moments before they get to Asgore, plus they're 8-B anyways.

I think that an argument for them can be them also scaling from the Hotland/Waterfall monsters in speed, as Frisk at that point was well after it, so a suggestion can be this:

1. Massively Hypersonic+
2. At least Subsonic+, possibly Massively Hypersonic+ if option 1 isn't solid enough.

Im fine with either option, but if I had to pick, option 1 sounds alright

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I suppose, but I don't think people are that dumb to misinterpret it?

We have people misinterpreting Bill’s NEP even given what is written on his profile-

I'd be ok with changing to Limited tho.

Alright

I think my main concern is him switching even to previous SAVEs, which shouldn't really happen if it all happens across different timelines.

Like he starts with Saving the File 3, then he saves over and over File 2, then LOADs back File 3, and then saves over and over File 6.

File 3 is just a name though, Frisk has only File 0 and File 9, for example

Plus even if he did, it'd be only 2-C range and has no proof of him being able to offensively affect multiple timelines at once.

I mean. Multiple timelines are warped under his control, as he controls the game etc. etc., even if we don’t have a proof of him effecting other timelines in the game

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

This meme made my day

 

[StrymULTRA]

Small gripe with this is that I disagree with SAVE Files representing the timeline the user has control over, I see it moreso representing a checkpoint in the timeline, even then it does show how much control Flowey has over the timeline eitherway so cool.

Idk how else to define it, as idk how to say that SAVE Files are the proof of the user having control over the timeline ngl.

The "My World" thing could be interpreted in a couple ways, being a controller of the SAVE System would make the world your 'plaything' without you being low 2-C exactly, so to speak. Crashing the game and renaming the game Floweytale is interesting however.

Will remain neutral on this.

They're mostly supporting stuff for his Low 2-C rating.

Existence Erasure is really my only gripe with this, I disagree with erasing Frisk's SAVE file warranting that due to it moreso being just time manipulation, he is using his power of the save system to override and destroy the previous users checkpoint in time. I've mentioned this before but flowey saying he will show 'everyone' the true meaning of this world once he achieves his newfound powers implies that humans and monsters are still around, and once he gets the 7th SOUL he will show them.

I'd be ok with getting rid of the SAVE evidence, though what about the Underground being seemingly a black void?

File 3 is just a name though, Frisk has only File 0 and File 9, for example

Why you using data stuff as evidence lmfao? They're functionally different from Flowey's stuff who actually is the SAVE System but with other checkpoints, not that Frisk has 9 SAVE States that they can use.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

What about the Underground being seemingly a black void?

It could just be a pocket dimension, Ig.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Why you using data stuff as evidence lmfao? They're functionally different from Flowey's stuff who actually is the SAVE System but with other checkpoints, not that Frisk has 9 SAVE States that they can use.

I thought File 3 refers to that? I’m not that deep on UT mechanics tbh. Anyways, maybe give Photoshop Flowey Power Modification if he does not jump between timelines, since he changed how SAVE & LOAD work?

 

[StrymULTRA]

It could just be a pocket dimension, Ig.

I'd be down with a possibly, or a "Pocket Reality Manipulation/Existence Erasure", idk.

I thought File 3 refers to that? I’m not that deep on UT mechanics tbh. Anyways, maybe give Photoshop Flowey Power Modification if he does not jump between timelines, since he changed how SAVE & LOAD work?

That's a bit jumping in assumptions ngl.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

That's a bit jumping in assumptions ngl.

I mean, it’s either that Photoshop Flowey is 2-C or he changed how SAVE & LOAD works

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, it’s either that Photoshop Flowey is 2-C or he changed how SAVE & LOAD works

Or 3rd option (more likely): He just unlocked a new way to use it just like how TRUE RESET does not create a new set of timelines either.

 

[Roachman40]

Its likely hes just able to create 6 different save points in a singular timeline, yea

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Tbh I don’t care much on that, so do whatever ya want in that regard

 

[Planck69]

The changes seem fine to me.

 

[Eseseso]

Looks good, and glad to see Photoshop Flowey not only have an actual solid tier but be back in Tier 2.

I miss 2-A Photoshop Flowey and Low 1-A Asriel, even if it made absolutely zero sense.

 

[RinneItachi]

I don't see 2-B Undyne the Undying, 0/10. Close it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Btw noticed that Asriel's "Discussion" part does not work, so I replaced the "{{Discussions}}" at the bottom of the page with "{{Discussions|Asriel Dreemurr Flowey|Asriel Dreemurr}}".

 

[Bernkastelll]

Grace is ending soon....

 

[StrymULTRA]

Grace is ending soon....

Not really, @LephyrTheRevanchist didn't give a complete review.

Btw found a size for Photoshop Flowey, 11.87 m.

This would downgrade his Large Size to Type 0.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Btw found a size for Photoshop Flowey, 11.87 m.

This would downgrade his Large Size to Type 0.

For some reason this sounds so weird...

 

[StrymULTRA]

For some reason this sounds so weird...

I mean... that's lowkey the best we can get.

At least he's one of the tallest Type 0s!

 

[Bernkastelll]

I mean... that's lowkey the best we can get.

At least he's one of the tallest Type 0s!

I always had the feeling that he was at least dozens to hundred meters tall

 

[Imaginym]

Grace is ending soon....

CRTs have Grace Periods? I thought that was a Versus Thread thing.

 

[StrymULTRA]

CRTs have Grace Periods? I thought that was a Versus Thread thing.

48 hours after the minimum amount of staff agreement you can apply a CRT

 

[Bernkastelll]

48 hours after the minimum amount of staff agreement you can apply a CRT

I thought it was 24 hours

 

[Ped2018]

48 hours after the minimum amount of staff agreement you can apply a CRT

It's 48 hours after the creation of the thread

 

[StrymULTRA]

It's 48 hours after the creation of the thread

Ah.

Still would wait tho, as it has just 1 agreement thus far.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The rest I'm neutral for now. Will comeback later to have a more thorough read.

:#

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump and added this

Added Danmaku to normal Flowey:

• Danmaku (Can create an unavoidable ring of bullets to trap the opponent)

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Bump and added this

Blud you were the one who removed it in the first place since it didn’t fit the description of Danmaku

 

[StrymULTRA]

Blud you were the one who removed it in the first place since it didn’t fit the description of Danmaku

I know, but then I read this:

The ability to produce a great amount of projectiles at once, in order to overwhelm the target by the sheer number of shots. Some users also add complex patterns to make dodging difficult.

It being a pattern isn't mandatory, so it's a mistake on my part.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Agree

 

[ShakeResounding]

Lovely work for Asriel's page, you did an amazing job. I agree with everything in the OP; 2-B Frisk, Low 2-C Flowey (which is kino), all of it.

At the rate you're going, it's only a matter of time until you make a Determination page lolol

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

At the rate you're going, it's only a matter of time until you make a Determination page lolol

It’s only a matter of time when we get 2-A God Tiers & 1-A Player fr

 

[StrymULTRA]

At the rate you're going, it's only a matter of time until you make a Determination page lolol

I don't think that's likely to happen ngl. The abilities seem too few and the users are also few.

If someone else does it then Gucci tho.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I don't think that's likely to happen ngl. The abilities seem too few and the users are also few.

1. Human civilization
2. Six human souls
3. Undyne
4. Flowey/Asriel
5. Frisk
6. Chara
7. Player

It’s enough to create a page, but you’re right that abilities are too few and it’s easier to list them separately anyways