Undertale Fan Dream Come True? Mid-Godly? Let me cook.

[ShionAH]

bump

 

[Therefir]

Frisk having Low-Godly is already sus as it is, plus Flowey lacks a SOUL and yet he clearly has a mind, so.

 

[ShionAH]

Frisk having Low-Godly is already sus as it is,

Not the place

Flowey lacks a SOUL and yet he clearly has a mind, so.

He has the memories of Asriel and also DT makes him a special case I explained it above

 

[Phoenks]

What evidence is there against the mind aspect being a completely different thing entirely? Because that would make the most sense.

Chara can still think and act without a soul.

 

[ShionAH]

What evidence is there against the mind aspect being a completely different thing entirely? Because that would make the most sense.

Chara can still think and act without a soul.

Can we talk about cases where things are normal? Like monsters?

Flowey has DT and Memories of Asriel which makes him a different case

Chara didnt have a mind until they embodied our LOVE and EXP which gave them an abstract feature, again making them a weird case

The lost souls is an insane proof and literally simply proves that souls contain mind

 

[Therefir]

He has the memories of Asriel and also DT makes him a special case I explained it above

The Human SOULS also have Determination, and the memories they had before they died, given their attacks.

If anything, it kind of implies that the "mind" of something can be sustained with Determination alone, given that Flowey doesn't even have a proper body with a brain that would be able to contain a mind.

Just having enough Determination is enough to persist in the Undertale world and have a mind, and Flowey was created using that same determination that SOULs had.

 

[Phoenks]

Yeah I'm not buying that the mind isn't just an entirely separate aspect given the evidence we have.

 

[MrKerf]

While it is shaky at the moment, I can see some validity, especially with Lost Souls argument.

 

[Phoenks]

I disagree there's nothing that invalidates the lost souls also having a mind aspect.

 

[ShionAH]

I disagree there's nothing that invalidates the lost souls also having a mind aspect.

If you look at the Lost Souls and say they are mindless, I dont know what to say to you.

For the CRT, what if we give a possibly rating since both the outcomes seem possible. (I am not talking to Phoenks specifically in this comment)

 

[Phoenks]

If you look at the Lost Souls and say they are mindless, I dont know what to say to you.

Did you type this wrong? My point is they can have a mind separate from soul.

 

[ShionAH]

My point is they can have a mind separate from soul.

Which is why Souls themselves having minds of their own is weird

 

[Phoenks]

Which is why Souls themselves having minds of their own is weird

Your argument relies on this though what????

Are you disagreeing with your own CRT?

 

[ShionAH]

Your argument relies on this though what????

Are you disagreeing with your own CRT?

What?

I am saying if "Mind is another aspect" then "Souls themselves having minds of their own is weird"

 

[Phoenks]

What?

I am saying if "Mind is another aspect" then "Souls themselves having minds of their own is weird"

I have two separate arguments.

1 is that the soul can simply think on their own without a mind.

2 is that there is simply a mind aspect separate from souls.


I am currently going to go with my second argument because I think that's actually the default assumption rather than the first one. But both could be possible.

 

[ShionAH]

is that the soul can simply think on their own without a mind.

Makes absolutely no sense

Either the souls have the mind in them or the monster souls have mind in them. Both are possible so I will say maybe a "likely/possibly" rating works fine here.

 

[Phoenks]

Makes absolutely no sense

Either the souls have the mind in them or the monster souls have mind in them. Both are possible so I will say maybe a "likely/possibly" rating works fine here.

The default assumption afaik is that mind aspect is separate from soul. So unless you have anything that straight up says that consciousness or mind is within the soul, then no.

Bleach took an entire blog worth of evidence saying the mind was in the soul for that to get accepted.

 

[ShionAH]

The default assumption afaik is that mind aspect is separate from soul.

Which is why I made an CRT.

So unless you have anything that straight up says that consciousness or mind is within the soul, then no.

It turns out Asriel directly states he erased the memories of the Souls in the Pacifist Ending which is a direct confirmation on the Mind

 

[Phoenks]

Not enough evidence. It's contradicted by those without a soul still being able to think.

 

[MrKerf]

I have two separate arguments.

1 is that the soul can simply think on their own without a mind.

But the Lost souls directly say things like "You are my friend" and "I am rooting for you". Plus the memories are flooding back. As in - they were there at first. And in general it implies that the Souls have their personality.

2 is that there is simply a mind aspect separate from souls.
I am currently going to go with my second argument because I think that's actually the default assumption rather than the first one. But both could be possible.

But Asriel directly affects memories of the Souls and the only visual indication of how is absorbing them. He doesn't seem to affect some third concept of mind that is out there. And naturally, memory manipulation is directly connected to mind.

 

[ShionAH]

"All your progress... Everyone's memories. I'll bring them all back to zero! "
"Every time you die, your friends forget you a little more"
"However, with everyone's souls inside me...But I can feel every other monster's as well. They all care about each other so much. And... they care about you too, Frisk."
"It feels like they all really love you."

What more do you want. @Phoenks

Should Asriel say "I also want to say, these souls contain mind which in response would make it so if in any case theres an erasure happening it would qualify for Mid-Godly Regeneration which is used in the vsbattles wiki frequently."

 

[ShionAH]

Final Tally for all the evidence

Omega Flowey Boss Fight, Soul directly do stuff on their own

• We see Cyan attacking because of Flowey but later Orange Soul comes to help on their own
• We see Orange attacking because of Flowey but later Blue Soul comes to help on their own
• We see Blue attacking because of Flowey but later Purple Soul comes to help on their own
• We see Purple attacking because of Flowey but later Green Soul comes to help on their own
• Green is cooking something but then Yellow stops him lol
• Yellow attacks Cyan stops him before we die
• All the souls see our wounds and they use their power to heal us to max health and then they drop Floweys defense to zero (This might be a joke on Floweys part)
• The souls keep healing us mid combat after this
• The Souls literally strip Flowey from his powers, proceed to beat his ass like theres no tomorrow and save Frisk from their demise

Lost Souls

• The Lost Souls in Asriels fight talk, fight and act on their own, if we try to save them they literally get their conscious back
• Asriel Statements
  • "All your progress... Everyone's memories. I'll bring them all back to zero! "
  • "Every time you die, your friends forget you a little more"
  • "It feels like they all really love you."
  • "However, with everyone's souls inside me...But I can feel every other monster's as well. They all care about each other so much. And... they care about you too, Frisk."
  • Right now, I can feel everyone's hearts beating as one.
  • They're all burning with the same desire.
  • With everyone's determination...
• Frisk
  • You call out to your friends with all your heart. From somewhere, you felt their support..
  • You reached out to ASRIEL's SOUL and called out to your friends. They're in there somewhere, aren't they?
  • You feel something faintly/slightly/strongly resonating within ASRIEL
• Library
  • Monster souls are directly made out of "Love, Hope, Compassion" but the absolute nature is unknown

All of this should logically either give a possibly rating or a full on one.

 

[Therefir]

That doesn't mean anything, that just mean Asriel can affect both their souls and minds.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Should Asriel say "I also want to say, these souls contain mind which in response would make it so if in any case theres an erasure happening it would qualify for Mid-Godly Regeneration which is used in the vsbattles wiki frequently."

 

[ShionAH]

That doesn't mean anything, that just mean Asriel can affect both their souls and minds.

Asriel literally says he can feel their emotion and thoughts THROUGH their soul.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

tbh be if this would qualify

The initial thread argument says that even without a soul one can save and load not about having a mind and all
If Flowey has thoughts without a soul that could mean the mind is separate from the soul

Now there is nothing proving one without thought can still use the load and save feature
So even if we can argue that a soul can have a mind we don't have proof that one can still have thought to use the load and save feature without also the mind
only without soul and body as Flowey did

Furthermore, we can see Chara Flowey and Frisk all having independent thoughts even though Chara and Flowey has no soul and Chara only having a Stolen soul.

So I'm not sure if even if we argue a soul can have a mind would also mean it is suddenly mid-godly

if you argue the lost soul is capable of coming back. they return their minds and memories
meaning
An independent mind can return one's soul and an independent soul can return one mind/memories
but both being gone would also mean they cannot do what was said above

Finally What is common between Asriel, Frisk, Chara, and Flowey is that
They all have thoughts when performing things and it's not like their thoughts exist on a higher fundamental stuff like concepts and such
unless you wanna argue determination as such
but not all of them have a soul

 

[ShionAH]

Extra addition.

Monster souls are directly made out of "Love, Hope, Compassion"

 

[ShionAH]

Canon feats?? W.

 

[ShionAH]

tbh be if this would qualify

The initial thread argument says that even without a soul one can save and load not about having a mind and all
If Flowey has thoughts without a soul that could mean the mind is separate from the soul

Now there is nothing proving one without thought can still use the load and save feature
So even if we can argue that a soul can have a mind we don't have proof that one can still have thought to use the load and save feature without also the mind
only without soul and body as Flowey did

Furthermore, we can see Chara Flowey and Frisk all having independent thoughts even though Chara and Flowey has no soul and Chara only having a Stolen soul.

So I'm not sure if even if we argue a soul can have a mind would also mean it is suddenly mid-godly

if you argue the lost soul is capable of coming back. they return their minds and memories
meaning
An independent mind can return one's soul and an independent soul can return one mind/memories
but both being gone would also mean they cannot do what was said above

Finally What is common between Asriel, Frisk, Chara, and Flowey is that
They all have thoughts when performing things and it's not like their thoughts exist on a higher fundamental stuff like concepts and such
unless you wanna argue determination as such
but not all of them have a soul

The least confusing Undertale thread

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Extra addition.

Monster souls are directly made out of "Love, Hope, Compassion"

'This is what people say monster SOULs are made of"

"But the absolute nature of "SOUL" is unknown"

"After all, humans have proven their SOULs don't need these things to exist."

Leaving out key context?

 

[ShionAH]

Leaving out key context?

StrymULTRA tricked me lol

 

[Omegabronic]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @CrimsonStarFallen @Starter_Pack @Andytrenom

What do you think about this?

 

[Eficiente]

It's pretty clear that the "mind aspect" can be anywhere, be it on the soul or not, meaning that it doesn't matter, worse, souls get shattered, not erased. This is pushing something op and making baseless assumptions to make that happen, not seeing how is it that they're not reasonable, sorry but it's pretty bad.

Asriel literally says he can feel their emotion and thoughts THROUGH their soul.

Primarily, yes, yet he can still have thoughts w/o it and feel emotions if pushed too hard. It doesn't mean anything exclusive when it can easily be proven that it's not necessarily something exclusive.

 

[Yuhabaku]

A

You should make a vote tally

 

[ShionAH]

It's pretty clear that the "mind aspect" can be anywhere, be it on the soul or not, meaning that it doesn't matter, worse, souls get shattered, not erased. This is pushing something op and making baseless assumptions to make that happen, not seeing how is it that they're not reasonable, sorry but it's pretty bad.

I am not arguing for Low-Godly thats a different CRT, I am arguing for Soul + Mind.

Please stop derailing this CRT with Low-Godly discussion

 

[Eficiente]

You're taking for granted the use of this terms but you're not expressing what do you want in a clear way. What does "arguing for Soul + Mind" mean to you?

 

[ShionAH]

You're taking for granted the use of this terms but you're not expressing what do you want in a clear way.

In Undertale Souls should also containd the Mind Aspect.

We see Asriel talk about how Souls talk to him/feel emotions/remember frisk and we literally see they have their minds in Lost Soul fight

Omega Flowey fight shows that the human souls also think and have their own minds and personalities as they stop eachother when they can

 

[ShionAH]

For the Flowey part. Its a flower so it should even have a Mind but it gained a Mind because of DT

 

[StrymULTRA]

Mind is assumed to be non-corporeal btw, I don't see why Flowey matters here.