Undertale & Durability Negation: Fact, or Fiction?

[Theuser789]

That's.... literally exactly what KR does. That's a part of KR.

No, KR is the poison effect after you been hit, each frame you touch a bone you lose 1 HP plus the poison of KR, they aren't related, they stack on top of the other

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

No it isn't Wright. KR is the purple poison damage. It stacks per frame, sure, but you don't lose 1 HP per frame with it. That thing takes a long, long time to dwindle down your HP, and it can't even kill you at all. KR is only the purple poison effect.

Sans' main way of harming others is with his base damage stacking over and over. He ignores DEF the same way his brother does, doing a set amount of damage.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Speaking of Game mechanics. There's one I want to know why we consider for him. The whole Sans ignores durability frame immunity after taking damage, which is why he does damage on an extremely rapid rate. Is this an acknowledge power he has?

His whole thing revolves around it, it would be rather stupid to just say that isn't real. He is the weakest monster, and him negating durability this way is the reason why a monster weaker than a froggit can kill Frisk and Flowey over and over. KR can't even kill, at all, so I don't see how you could act like that is the way he "canonical ly" kills his opponents.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

No it isn't Wright. KR is the purple poison damage. It stacks per frame, sure, but you don't lose 1 HP per frame with it. That thing takes a long, long time to dwindle down your HP, and it can't even kill you at all. KR is only the purple poison effect.

Sans' main way of harming others is with his base damage stacking over and over. He ignores DEF the same way his brother does, doing a set amount of damage.

That... doesn't make sense. If they both activate at the same time as soon as you're hit, why are we assuming they're separate? It could easily just be KR has two effects: it rapidly deals damage to you on contact and leaves you poisoned afterwards.

 

[Theuser789]

Because we can't just assume they are, when they are show to be two diferent things in game, it's just headcanon to assume that just because they activate at the "same" time, which is wrong, it activates after you get damaged

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Because we can't just assume they are, when they are show to be two diferent things in game, it's just headcanon to assume that just because they activate at the "same" time, which is wrong, it activates after you get damaged

Only they aren't. They both activate after you get damaged.

 

[Agnaa]

Well It's the only attack in the entire game that halves your HP, it doesn't do a set amount of damage, it just keeps on cutting the amount of HP you have remaining

btw, it isn't the only attack like that, Toriel's attacks do less damage when you get on low HP.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Because he has attacks that only deal KR with no actual damage (the attacks during your turn). And the game denotes KR as the purple section of your healt bar, while the damage he does doesn't get a custom part in the HP section.

KR deals a set amount of poison damage per hit, depending what attack hits. This poison takes effect slowly, draining your health, but never below one.

Sans' attacks also do 1 HP damage per frame, as per his ATK. This 1 HP damage is taken off first from your purple HP, the "poisoned" one. This damage only stacks due to the lack of invincibility frames, something that you can actually get around with equipment that boosts said frames, hampering his ability to harm you but not his KR, which stays static in its damage.

Even if you say both damages are from the same ability, they both ignore durability regardless.

 

[Theuser789]

Only they aren't. They both activate after you get damaged.

What? Sans doing one damage per frame is what damages you, the karma stacks on, what causes damage can't activate after you suffered damage, that's completely illogical

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Ah, okay. That actually makes sense. Then they are separate things.

I'm still not comfortable letting an ability that only appears in gameplay, that is never acknowledged by the characters, the plot, or even acknowledged as a Status Effect like KR, be considered anything more than gameplay mechanics though.

 

[Theuser789]

Sans, Papyrus, and Mettaton (only with that Lazer attack) are the only Monsters in the Game that ignore the DEF stat. and Damage Points might be canon in undertale

Except the narrator mentions here as seen in this post

 

[Theuser789]

btw, it isn't the only attack like that, Toriel's attacks do less damage when you get on low HP.

That's probaly because she is holding back during the fight

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I agree with User on Sans' Durability Negation.

 

[Agnaa]

So could Mettaton be holding back with each subsequent laser? He wouldn't wanna kill the quiz guest just like that, at that point he was still working in Alphys to threaten Frisk but not kill them.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That's Sans' whole stich. The weakest monster beats people that are way stronger than him through "thousand cuts" and loopholes.

I know it's awkward that Sans' whole fighting style is revolving around game mechanics, but that is how it is.

He sidesteps attacks. This shouldn't be special, except no other character can do this despite Undyne directly mentioning that Asgore preferred to dodge her attacks when he could.

He reduces your invincibility frames to zero, and makes your item buffs on said frames weaker, despite that not really being a thing and even being ignored many times (See Asriel's final attack, or when Flowey shaves off your health in a few attacks before he absorbs the souls of everyone underground).

His name appears yellow (or pink), something that only separable monsters can have, but he still attacks you. If you survive this with hacks, the game even mocks you by showing a hit list of people to kill with Sans missing from it.

He attacks during your turn, and the only way to dodge the attacks is "teleporting" your soul between battle options like items, mercy and attack.

He blocks you in his turn by never ending it, after which you need to physically drag the borders of your platform to your fight option.


Everything he does is full on game mechanics.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

So could Mettaton be holding back with each subsequent laser? He wouldn't wanna kill the quiz guest just like that, at that point he was still working in Alphys to threaten Frisk but not kill them.

Would that mean Mettaton can 2 shot Frisk in his Box Form?

 

[Agnaa]

Sure.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I'm not arguing Sans, I get that it's his whole shtick. I'm arguing the other two.

An argument could be made that Papyrus could very well have a similar durability negation technique by virtue of being related, but Mettaton has literally no in-universe reason to have it.

Besides, it's equally likely that Mettaton is simply strong enough to halve your health regardless but just holds back. It'd hardly be out of character for him to do the less pragmatic but more showy thing. There's no entertainment to be had if he just one-shots you.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

It ignores Durability cause even if Frisk is using Temmie Armor (30 DEF), it still does the same damage to her/him when she/he has no Armor (0 DEF), and if he was holding back it would contradict his Atk Stat being below Undyne

And Unlike Papyrus and Sans, he can only ignore durability with this one move

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Not sure about Mettaton. If his base form had enough to two-shot Frisk then I feel like he shouldn't have been fodderized so easily by gen-Frisk in a Stronger form.

But eh, I dunno. I guess I'm neutral on that.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Not sure about Mettaton. If his base form had enough to two-shot Frisk then I feel like he shouldn't have been fodderized so easily by gen-Frisk in a Stronger form.

But eh, I dunno. I guess I'm neutral on that.

I mean, doesn't he explicitly state that his defenses weren't as well built in that form?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Not sure about Mettaton. If his base form had enough to two-shot Frisk then I feel like he shouldn't have been fodderized so easily by gen-Frisk in a Stronger form.
But eh, I dunno. I guess I'm neutral on that.

Well gen-Frisk One-Shot Mettaton before he could attack

 

[Theuser789]

Papyrus should have it because like his brother he does a set damage as well, only that he doesn't have karma nor bypasses the invencibilility frames, Mettaton's is harder to argue because it's just one attack

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

It does, but his base should have easily destroyed Frisk at that point if his attacks were that strong.

Plus, him doing near double the damage Undyne the Undying does when he has half the ATK stat is kind of weird.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

We don't actually know if he could 2 Shot Frisk, him holding back wasn't stated

 

[The_Wright_Way]

It does, but his base should have easily destroyed Frisk at that point if his attacks were that strong.

Plus, him doing near double the damage Undyne the Undying does when he has half the ATK stat is kind of weird.

I mean, it's not out of character for him to hold back. He's putting on a show and letting Alphys play hero at that point.

Doesn't the Mad Dummey have, like, -40 attack stat or something or am I misremembering?

 

[Agnaa]

It does, but his base should have easily destroyed Frisk at that point if his attacks were that strong.

Plus, him doing near double the damage Undyne the Undying does when he has half the ATK stat is kind of weird.

Mettaton didn't even attack in genocide.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

We don't actually know if he could 2 Shot Frisk, him holding back wasn't stated

Actually, it kinda was? He explains later that he was letting Alphys play hero. Him holding back certainly fits that and he later proposefully botches several other attempts later.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Doesn't the Mad Dummey have, like, -40 attack stat or something or am I misremembering?

It's 30, I'm pretty sure.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here?

 

[Agnaa]

We haven't reached a solid conclusion yet, but the arguments go along the lines of:

Mettato should have durability negation because he halves the player's HP no matter their defense. We should take this seriously since the defense stat is a canonical feature and this is one of the few times it's ignored.

• Response: That's just game mechanics.
• Response 2: That could just be Mettaton holding back, since we know from the lore that he's not trying to kill Frisk at that time.
• Counter-response: Even if it seems like game mechanics, game mechanics are often treated literally in Undertale.
• Counter-response 2: Mettaton holding back from two-shotting Frisk doesn't make a lot of sense with how his attack stat compares to other monsters.

Papyrus should have durability negation because he deals the same amount of damage no matter the player's Defense.

• Response: That's just game mechanics.
• Counter-response: Game mechanics are taken literally in Undertale, and Papyrus is Sans' brother, and we know that Sans' durability negation is legit, so maybe they both have it.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Mettaton's argument seems fine, but the one with Papyrus seems a little odd. I don't think being Sans' brother is exactly a good reason for it being Dura Negation. Neutral though leaning slightly toward agreeing with it because the former in User's statement is true.

 

[Antvasima]

@Agnaa

Okay. Thank you for the explanation.

 

[Theuser789]

Papyrus shouldn't have dura negating just because he's Sans' brother because they can do diferent things, Papyrus does more damage, has that weird walking on Air thing, his bones can move up and down, meanwhile Sans has his "shortcuts", Karma, throwing people around etc.

He should have it because like his brother he does set damage no matter your defense

Mettaton's is harder, it's inconsistant he being able to two-shoot you when Undyne nor his EX form which has a higher attack can't

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Mettaton's is harder, it's inconsistant he being able to two-shoot you when Undyne nor his EX form which has a higher attack can't

That's because The attack ignores durability, so him having a lower Atk Stat wouldn't matter

 

[Uniasha]

i agree with Adem

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

bump

 

[Thelastmlg]

Can we really say that sans deals a set attack no matter the defense, when he just deals the minimun amounto of damage anyway?

 

[Theuser789]

The minimun amount of damage isn't 1, as seen with Mettaton's box form and Asriel you can literaly just not deal damage if your def is high enough, and even with The Locket giving 99 def he can still do damage

 

[Thelastmlg]

Oh okay then.