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Undertale & Durability Negation: Fact, or Fiction?

Theuser789 said:
The minimun amount of damage isn't 1, as seen with Mettaton's box form and Asriel you can literaly just not deal damage if your def is high enough, and even with The Locket giving 99 def he can still do damage
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That's only for your damage to enemies that are hardcoded to deal zero damage. I don't think you can ever get damage dealt to Frisk down to 0, even with The Locket against the weakest non-Sans enemy (assuming you hack the item in).
 
I don't think we use hacking to determine scaling, plus Sans is THE weakest enemy, even if another monster can do 1 doesn't mean Sans would, plus I am pretty sure without dura negation Sans AP is 9-B only compared to similar monsters versus Chara's 9-A dura
 
But both of your examples of proof are two characters with very good reason to be invulnerable. I don't think we should use invulnerable characters for proof that damage can go below 1.
 
His metal body renders him invulnerable to attack.
 
With the invulnerability changes you need much more than a statment to get invulnerability, trust me, I know from experience, most of what the game implies that he has a really high defense thus he is "invulnerable" to Frisk
 
You need more than that to get invulnerability as an actual ability on a profile. But when he's one of two characters in the game that take 0 damage from attacks, the other one has infinite defense, and he has statements of being invulnerable, I think the fact that he takes 0 damage should not be used as evidence that damage can go below 1 for normal characters.
 
Except Sans is the weakest monster, below MK who I am pretty sure only has 9-B AP, meaning Sans AP without dura negating would be 9-B vs very high into 9-A, so he would need dura negating to even beat them, since Karma doesn't kill, only weaken, I don't think we should remove dura negating just because 1 damage is the "weakest", when enemys canonicaly in verse can take 0 damage proving that's a thing that exists, and Sans is the weakest monster (MK is the closest above him but he doesn't attack) versus 99 def
 
Oh yeah, he should keep dura negation.
 
He doesn't attack physically though. Monster Kid does. That's why Sans has a 9-A Attack with magic, but 9-B physically
 
Is the attack stat really just referring to physical attack? I figured it would have counted magic attacks too.
 
All monster use magic in their attacks, none, and I repeat, none use physical attacks in their fights, MK doesn't attack you period during his "fight", meaning the points still stand

Plus we are derraling from the main point, Sans having dura negation was already accepted, the argument was if Papyrus and Mettaton's laser attack have it as well
 
Agnaa said:
Is the attack stat really just referring to physical attack? I figured it would have counted magic attacks too.
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Only in Frisk's case it's physical's, literaly every monster in the game only attacks you with magical attacks
 
That's not true. Iirc too, the frog jumps at frisk to damage them, and the dummie can literally just Chuck a knife or missiles at you. It's pretty far fetched and makes little sense to say they don't attack physically with some. Some do attack with magic sure, but there are several who attack with physical attacks.
 
@Butters Even if that is true, we know that the attack stat reflects magical AP when that monster uses magic, so if that's lower than Monster Kid's 9-B physical AP, why would Sans have 9-A magic?
 
Sans has 9-A magic through being able to damage frisk, and before you bring up bones can just be bypassing durability as brought up, I do have a counter argument. One thing we can use to back it up not being Durability bypassing, and instead just 9-A magic is when sans slams their body hard enough to hurt them. Sans is able to slam them hard enough several times to cause them small amounts of damage. And this can't really be said bypassing durability since it isn't using like bones or even magic blasts. It's just using magic to through them hard enough to hurt them. That right there would be 9-A, and would then make sense why his bones can damage them. Not durability bypassing, just strong enough to hurt them magic wise.
 
So Sans doesn't have durability negation then, from what you're saying?
 
Yes. His magic is just 9-A. Nothing else really proves durability bypassing, and his magic being able to injure first just by slamming them into the roof or floor should make it evident his magic is just 9-A and not ignoring durability. And he only does so much damage since he ignores Invisibility Frames causing rapid damage every second your touching his attack. Wether that's game mechanic Breaking since Sans is Meta like that or is a legit ability able to be used for him is up for debate imo, I'm not fully convinced on either side there.
 
Froggit isn't the one jumping but his magical attacks, monster magic can take diferent shapes and Froggits actual sprite is unmoving, and we know Toby can make sprites move when using attacks multiple times, Mad Dummy's missiles are literaly called magical missiles and can hurt him, a ghost, the knife is the only exception, everything else is magical attacks

No, the slam attack doesn't debunk Sans having dura negation nor makes his magic stronger than several monsters, first things first Sans slaming you is his ONLY attack that CAN'T kill you, second they only harm you at his last attack, other times you are throw around don't even harm you in anyway

So Sans keeps his dura negating hax

This headcanon that magic and physical attacks are two diferent things and one can be massively stronger than the other when that's never show and every single monster attack is magical except the knife which isn't even his own attack but he just throwing a random knife
 
That sounds like it's just relying on game mechanics too much. It makes more sense I say that they are attacking you, and the sprites there not moving out of spot because it's a game mechanic.

Sans not being able to Kill you with the slam attack does not make the fact he Damages you with the slam attack. Saying they only harm you cause it's his last attack is a weak excuse as that means absolutely nothing. The fact it was his last attack only means he is more tired meaning he likely wouldn't be hitting as hard as the start of the fight. He isn't looking to do that when he throws you around the other times and isn't throwing you nearly as hard. That can be summed up as PIS to give the player an actual chance to win the fight and win.

So I still disagree. He very clearly can hurt you with slamming. That's 9-A and not bypassing durability. PIS shouldn't hold it back.
 
Game mechanics are literal in Undertale, and even then that's the actual weak excuse, nothing about using a sprite or not is game mechanics in anyway, especialy when multiple other sprites move during much minor things, so it being physical is a baseless claim you must prove

Yeah, the spam attack is the only attack that can only do 1 HP with no Karma at all, that doesn't mean that Sans magic is stronger than the likes of Undyne when he is said to be the weakest monster. Half of your arguments are weak excuses with no proof except your own claim, and some even objectively wrong. Sans being tired at his last attack means that the other times should have hurted you because he would have hitted harder then because he always uses his strongest attacks first

No, just saying "game mechanics" "PIS" are just shitty excuses, the Sans fight is supposed to be as frustating as possible so you will give up, and we see multiple times a opponent reducing Frisk's HP to 1 when they can't kill them, this is the same case and proves his slam attack is weaker than every other attack

All in all there's way more proof that Sans negates dura then his magic just being stronger than several mosnters when he is stated to be the weakest
 
Frankly I seriously disagree, and saying my argument is weak means nothing. I say it's pretty straight forward on why they have physical attacks, and what your saying is just game mechanics. Saying prove it means nothing. You can't really prove that, you can only prove agaisnt that, and the burden of evidence would be on you at that point

The fact the magic does enough damage to hurt them means it's 9-A. There isn't really any other way around it. Nobody said he is stronger than Undyne, that's just you making stuff up. Read my comment over and you'll see at no point me saying that or even bringing her up. I said Sans scales to 9-A via magic, and durability bypassing is a no. Saying my arguments are weak with no proof is baseless on itself. Especially calling or objectively wrong. Wanna know the basing on my evidence. It's something I've already said more than once.

In the Battle with Sans. He slams you at the end several times hard enough to do damage several times. He didn't use magic bones or any projectile to bypass durability. He just chunks you hard enough to damage you. That's 9-A Magic. And that's proof, you have yet to disprove that point. Saying it doesn't kill them means nothing, it Hurts them, and can hurt them each time: that's reason to scale. There is not a chance evens remotely that if a wall level slammed a Small building level that it would do any remote damage. This clearly does damage. Not a lot, but it's still damage. Meaning it scales. Period.

Except PIS does exist, and we can't try and duck out when it's most Convenient for a character. The reason he didn't do that kind of damage or do that is a mixture of just PIS and character. It's very VERY clear it can hurt them. You can keep saying "oh it can't kill them" over and over again. Here's the problem. It Can Hurt Them. Him at his weakest point in the fight could still hurt them with a simple slam

And that's a Hard No on this being a weaker attack. All his attacks do the same damage. He ignores invisibility frames, which is why getting hit by a bone once is like getting hit 30 times. He only does one damage per hit, but each hit is dependent on you touching the bone. If you are touching the bone for more than a seconds? Your taking several attacks, but they all are still 1 damage. The slam is different as it's not a projectile that can ignore invisibility frames and attack you rapid fire. It's just one slam, and it's not into any other attacks. So of course it only does one damage. All of sans attacks do one damage.

So gonna say no to that.
 
Your arguments are based on unfounded claims, first you claim physical and magic attacks are two diferent stats, and for some reason the check is only refering to physical attacks, which is completely unfounded, and you have no proof of that, then you try to claim certain attacks are physical with no proof as well, with your only examples of physical attacks being Mad Dummy's which are stated to be magical and hurt a ghost (making half of it already objectively false), and Froggit jump, which is very clearly a magical attack because his actual sprite is unmoving, the you use "gameplay mechanics" as a literal buzzword when the point is not even related to gameplay mechanics and gameplay mechanics are valid in this game

Then after all that you make the mental gynastics that Sans statments of being the weakest monster is just about physical attacks, another unfounded claim, when nothing in the game implys the attack stat refers to only physical attacks

Your entire wall of text is legit irrelevant in terms of actual content or arguments, it's just you repeating "Sans slaming you can hurt" over and over without adressing any of the points or backing up your claims, the slam attack hurting legit doesn't mean Sans is 9-A, a 9-B slaming a 9-A can actualy do very small damage but not actualy lasting or lethal damage that can kill you, which is exactaly what Sans does, you are using "PIS" as a buzzword as well, the menu attacks who only deal karma can't actualy kill you either, Occam's razor, your points need way more assumptions and jump of logic

So in conclusion Sans should have dura negating, it's the entire reason why he's such a threat even though he is weaker than Moster Kid, he slaming you doing damage doesn't mean doesn't mean he is just strong enough to harm them nor that magic and physical attacks are two diferent stats and that Sans is just stronger than several monsters in magic even when those monster are attacking you with magic (you would need to prove that all those monster only use physical attacks to keep your headcanon safe), when a 9-B can cause very snall damage to a 9-A but not lethal one, exactaly what that attack does (does minimal damage aka 1HP but it can't kill you aka can't do lethal damage), and buzzwords don't change that fact

So I don't care that you say no when your argument are just repeating without proving your claims nor adressing counter arguments
 
Theuser789 said:
Your arguments are based on unfounded claims, first you claim physical and magic attacks, which is completely unfounded, and you have no proof of that, then you try to claim certain attacks are physical with no proof as well, with your only examples of physical attacks being Mad Dummy's which are stated to be magical and hurt a ghost (making half of it already objectively false), and Froggit jump, which is very clearly a magical attack because his actual sprite is unmoving, the you use "gameplay mechanics" as a literal buzzword when the point is not even related to gameplay mechanics and gameplay mechanics are valid in this game
Then after all that you make the mental gynastics that Sans statments of being the weakest monster is just about physical attacks, another unfounded claim, when nothing in the game implys the attack stat refers to only physical attacks

Your entire wall of text is legit irrelevant in terms of actual content or arguments, it's just you repeating "Sans slaming you can hurt" over and over without adressing any of the points or backing up your claims, the slam attack hurting legit doesn't mean Sans is 9-A, a 9-B slaming a 9-A can actualy do Very small damage but not actualy lasting or lethal damage that can kill you, which is exactaly what Sans does, you are using "PIS" as a buzzword as well, the menu attacks who only deal karma can't actualy kill you either, Occam's razor, your points requerire way more assumptions and jump of logic

So in conclusion Sans should have dura negating, it's the entire reason why he's such a threat even though he is weaker than Moster Kid, he slaming you doing damage doesn't mean doesn't mean he is just strong enough to harm them nor that magic and physical attacks are two diferent stats and that Sans is just stronger than several monsters in magic even when those monster are attacking you with magic (you would need to prove that all those monster only use physical attacks to keep your headcanon safe), when a 9-B can cause very snall damage to a 9-A but not lethal one, exactaly what that attack does (does minimal damage aka 1HP but it can't kill you aka can't do lethal damage), and buzzwords don't change that fact

So I don't care that you say no when your argument are just repeating without proving your claims nor adressing counter arguments
Click to expand...
i'd agreed with theuser789 while yours is practically nonexistant
 
There are physically attacking monsters like Temmie, So sorry and Migosp

But I agree with Theuser789 There is no evidence that there is a difference in strength between physical and magical attacks.
 
Oh yeah, Temmie does use physical attacks, they even come from her sprite, compared to the actual magic attacks, so if the Froggits jump was indeed physical it would come from his sprite like Temmie's
 
@Agnaa

I will unsubscribe to this thread. Please send me a message when an agreement has been reached here.
 
the facts of the Fight and Battle itself are not Unfound. I repeat the same point cause you've yet to give any actual reason why it wouldn't work, and your current reason doesn't work cause it ignores the facts. No matter how hard you try and twist it, there is no denying that He didn't bypass durability to hurt them when he just slammed them down. It didn't kill them is a horrible argument cause you don't have to kill someone to obviously scale to them. He damaged them, several times, that's reason to scale. If I us TK to slam someone hard enough to hurt them, and they are 9-A. Me TK is 9-A. That's not a jump in logic, that's Basic Logic. It's very straight forward


Sans hurt them by slamming them. That makes his magic 9-A

It didn't kill them isn't a valid argument cause you don't need to kill someone to scale to them. That's a terrible reason.

Says it causes minimal damage makes it 9-B is awful reasoning as a 9-B couldn't hurt a 9-A even remotely. A 9-B could just keep punching a 9-A millions of times and it would do Jack to them. Sans can put them in a point where they are almost dead. So yes that is 9-A. It doesn't matter if it's low damage. It's damage.

So your reasons don't change anything cause they are wrong. You don't need to kill someone to scale, you don't need to do a lot of damage to scale, and a 9-B can Not Hurt a 9-A even a little, let alone put them in a state of near death like Sans can.
 
Yet again you didn't adress any of the counter arguments, provided zero proof of your claims, heck, you didn't even adress them, and keeps repeating "Sans slam therefore he 9-A" like a literal broken record

"Says it causes minimal damage makes it 9-B is awful reasoning as a 9-B couldn't hurt a 9-A even remotely. A 9-B could just keep punching a 9-A millions of times and it would do Jack to them."

So exactaly what Sans slam does? Good job debunking yourself

"Sans can put them in a point where they are almost dead. So yes that is 9-A. It doesn't matter if it's low damage. It's damage."

Objectively wrong, as you can see here you can survive the attack with plenty HP, Chara is almost dead because of the damage of the previous attacks, yet the attack can't even kill them even when they are supposedely almost dead, yet again your own comment is debunking itself

So repeating a argument isn't good debating, nor putting false information with your baseless claims
 
You Very clearly know what part of the fight I'm talking about. I don't need to back up why doing damage to a 9-A is considered 9-A AP cause that's basic logic. Your asking for evidence on the most basic thing. My evidence is the fight itself and the damage the slam clearly does, which you clearly know what I'm talking about.

Funny how you say I'm baseless and then say this. Sans slam attack Does Damage. If a 9-B attacked a 9-A, it Does Not do damage. Saying I debunked myself is baseless as nothing I said debunks myself. Sans attack doesn't do that, as it actually does damage. The most this says is his magic isn't as strong, but still scales. Which makes sense considering how much stronger Frisk gets end game.

No, your the one who's objectively wrong. Sans Attacks can put you at a place of near death. Key word. CAN. As in it's a possibility. Depending on the amount of damage you took pre to this attack. As his slams you several times. He can shrink your health all the way to 1 health. So no, your the one objectively wrong here.

And continuing to ignore the basic logic of hurting a 9-A is 9-A AP and trying to call basic logic false information and baseless is even worse debating.
 
You are stubborn, I will give you that, but repeating yourself does not mean anything, you are literaly not adressing any point, Undyne literaly takes 1 HP from Frisk when she literaly states you got no intention to actualy harm her, doing literaly 1 HP with a attack that can't kill even when you are almost dead (your own words), not talking about how MK is stronger than him yet is 9-B, a point you just ignored when you got debunked

I don't think you understand what basic logic or contradictions are, if a attack can only bring you at half dead state because of another attack then it's the other attacks fault, and yet even then the attack can't actualy do lethal damage

Literaly doing "no u" is the actual bad debating here, you are using ad nauseum, ignoring the buurden of rejoinder and others, doing 1 damage isn't harming as show with Undyne (you doing 1 damage being because you can't actualy bring yourself to hurt her), so it's not "basic logic" but desperation and I won't waste my time with you anymore if you keep using ad nauseum
 
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