UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE [shiny new] DISCUSSION THEAD

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Shouldn't Napstablook scale to MHS+ thingy due to this?
And also gain acidic manipulation

Edit: Also shouldn't Mad Dummy get combat-applicable Fourth Wall Breaking due to him planning to do the same stuff as Sans did, aka keep his move forever. The only reason why he didn't manage to do that is because Napsta interfered.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Shouldn't Napstablook scale to MHS+ thingy due to this?

Mad Dummy was caught off guard as they were too focused on seething on Frisk to notice Napsta, so no.

Edit: Also shouldn't Mad Dummy get combat-applicable Fourth Wall Breaking due to him planning to do the same stuff as Sans did, aka keep his move forever.

This is more due to them being super petty rather than them literally weaponizing the turn against us.

Aka nah.

Though I realized shouldn't the Amalgamates scale to some degree to MHS+? They fight Frisk right before the latter faces Asgore, and they're literally stuffed with DT. Snowdrake's mother is a thing, but the rest isn't exactly slowed?

Maybe a "Subsonic+, likely Massively Hypersonic+"?

 

[TheShape03]

Lmao, I just noticed that we accepted that Sans' attacks move at massively hypersonic+ speed (Mach 5302.24, which I agree with), which means that adding that value to this calculation, we would get this result.

KE: 276.773893 * 1818668.32^2 * 0.5 = 4.5772236e+14 Joules or 109.398269598470364 Kilotons (High 7-C)

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Only Tsunderplane can really use MHS+ KE, all others cases would count as calc stacking.

 

[TheShape03]

Only Tsunderplane can really use MHS+ KE, all others cases would count as calc stacking.

To be honest, that seems pretty silly to me. We already accept that those attacks move at massively hypersonic speeds. Even that specific attack is faster than Frisk/Chara.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Mad Dummy was caught off guard as they were too focused on seething on Frisk to notice Napsta, so no.

He could not properly react even after he realized that he is getting damaged. Also Napstablook's tears move relatively to Mad Dummy.

This is more due to them being super petty rather than them literally weaponizing the turn against us.

Nvm, I misunderstood it.

Aka nah.

Though I realized shouldn't the Amalgamates scale to some degree to MHS+? They fight Frisk right before the latter faces Asgore, and they're literally stuffed with DT. Snowdrake's mother is a thing, but the rest isn't exactly slowed?

Maybe a "Subsonic+, likely Massively Hypersonic+"?

I agree

Also, Acidic Manip for Napsta?

 

[StrymULTRA]

To be honest, that seems pretty silly to me. We already accept that those attacks move at massively hypersonic speeds. Even that specific attack is faster than Frisk/Chara.

The thing is that we don't apply calculated speed that aren't stated in verse to movements as that'd indeed fall under calc stacking.

Also Tier 7 would be a gigantic outlier anyway, especially when it comes from SANS of all things.

 

[StrymULTRA]

He could not properly react even after he realized that he is getting damaged. Also Napstablook's tears move relatively to Mad Dummy.

Ok but he's still unstable as ****, maybe he just was too shocked to move?

 

[Omegabronic]

The thing is that we don't apply calculated speed that aren't stated in verse to movements as that'd indeed fall under calc stacking.

Also Tier 7 would be a gigantic outlier anyway, especially when it comes from SANS of all things.

Now i wonder, would lighting speed be usable them? Since it isn't calculated at all but come from literal lighting being shot?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Ok but he's still unstable as ****, maybe he just was too shocked to move?

He literally says "What... what the heck is this?!", meaning that he realizes that he gets attacked, and he clearly does NOT like it (acidic rain), yet he still does not do anything to dodge it and just takes it and decides to leave. That's not how a guy who is more than 2000x faster would behave. Also, in the same video I provided, not only Napsta's tears are relative to Mad Dummy movement, they're also relative to SOUL movement (Napstablook himself is too).
Napstablook is also a citizen of Waterfall and Mettaton's brother, so it would make more sense for him being comparable to them too.

 

[Ti58]

What do the mysterious DeItarune characters scale to? Gaster, Dess, the Knight etc.

This is ignoring the fact that we don't know who they are. Just speculate.

 

[ShionAH]

Floweys Light (pacifist end) covers the underground in seconds and some monsters especially Napstablook reacted to it. Means anything? or nah

 

[StrymULTRA]

Floweys Light (pacifist end) covers the underground in seconds and some monsters especially Napstablook reacted to it. Means anything? or nah

Nah.
The light seemed to behave inconsistently.

 

[Imaginym]

What do the mysterious DeItarune characters scale to? Gaster, Dess, the Knight etc.

This is ignoring the fact that we don't know who they are. Just speculate.

I think we discussed Gaster recently in this thread.

Dess probably has something in her backstory that puts her at like, 10-C or 10-B at least. I don't remember much other than Noelle hitting Kris with a wiffle bat.
Some theories would say that Dess is in the depths & that it's a lower layer of fiction, so going by those, she's 11-C for being trapped there. Oof.

The Knight probably scales to whatever Kris does for creating Dark Fountains. I think we have a rating for that on the profile. Oh & also creating Cyber City, supposedly. It also has a "feat" of overthrowing the other 3 card suits' kings to put the Spade King into power.
The Oblivion Theory posits that The Vessel is The Knight & that our hope of playing the game (Trust me, it makes more sense in context.) is what fuels & animated it, kind of like how Spamton Neo's body is the failed design project of Mettaton the Lightner; The abandoned hopes & dreams of a Lightner. So there might be something in that, IF you believe that that's true.

Anyway, I'm very sleepy AtM.

 

[RinneItachi]

Floweys Light (pacifist end) covers the underground in seconds and some monsters especially Napstablook reacted to it. Means anything? or nah

I don't remember any Monster's reacting to it. Napstablook didn't react to it he was just in his house and closed the blinds.

 

[RinneItachi]

What do the mysterious DeItarune characters scale to? Gaster, Dess, the Knight etc.

This is ignoring the fact that we don't know who they are. Just speculate.

No comments on the others. Gaster I expect to be Low 2-C bare minimum.

 

[StrymULTRA]

No comments on the others. Gaster I expect to be Low 2-C bare minimum.

So like Photoshop Flowey in a future revision of mine?

 

[RinneItachi]

So like Photoshop Flowey in a future revision of mine?

Very different basis. I'm not just talking about the SAVE file thing. I expect Gaster to fundamentally transcend the verse and at least be a higher-D being.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Very different basis. I'm not just talking about the SAVE file thing.

I know, just finding it funny.

I expect Gaster to fundamentally transcend the verse

Eeeh.

at least be a higher-D being.

Tbh BDE would suit it more.

 

[Imaginym]

Very different basis. I'm not just talking about the SAVE file thing. I expect Gaster to fundamentally transcend the verse and at least be a higher-D being.

Ah yeah, some theories speculate that Gaster created Deltarune, the setting.
It at least seems like he's responsible for the Dark Worlds, with how much their UI seems to resemble the UI of the pre-completion file menu. Whereas the Light World has practically none of that.

Although, some also speculate that he merely connected the SOUL to Deltarune, which would make some sense given the birdcage suggests Kris had SOUL issues before the player's involvement, & them likely being wary of the Dark World -Stepping back from the closet's darkness- & possibly having a history with the bunker.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'm not just talking about the SAVE file thing.

Anyway in a shellnut the argument for Low 2-C Photoshop Flowey is off him taking complete control of the timeline to the point of being capable of overwriting it and even calling it "my world", other than erasing Frisk's SAVE and replacing it with his own.

We already know that SAVEs are representative of the timeline the user is taking control over, as the localization book seems to imply (here and here), and Asriel even says it himself, other than Frisk already having a SAVE even if they do not use the SAVE function (which Flowey still destroys anyways).

"But Strym, wouldn't this be hax at best anyways?". Well, that could be an argument if I didn't come up with a 2-B Frisk argument, that being them having the same DT of the Player, implying that Chara was actually talking to both us and our puppet. Chara's whole talk about them taking our SOUL can be explained from how we control Kris, given that their SOUL is technically in our possession, thus meaning that we give to Chara control over Frisk's SOUL in the same way we do already control it, hence further cementing the parallels Chara and the Player have already.

(But what about Frisk being unable to harm Asriel? Asriel is just far stronger, bye).

 

[Ghengiroo115]

(But what about Frisk being unable to harm Asriel? Asriel is just far stronger, bye)

So like Asriel (at least in his suppressed form) is more durable than he is strong? Assuming that’s what you mean then I suppose that works, since he wouldn’t necessarily be forced to limit his AT and DF an equal amount while suppressing himself (and it’d also be kinda stupid of him to limit his DF considering the context). Technically both of his stats are equal, but considering his stats are just “infinite” they could be different levels of infinite or something.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

(But what about Frisk being unable to harm Asriel? Asriel is just far stronger, bye).

Me when Frisk and Asriel directly have comparable DT (nobody cares):

 

[StrymULTRA]

So like Asriel (at least in his suppressed form) is more durable than he is strong? Assuming that’s what you mean then I suppose that works, since he wouldn’t necessarily be forced to limit his AT and DF an equal amount while suppressing himself (and it’d also be kinda stupid of him to limit his DF considering the context). Technically both of his stats are equal, but considering his stats are just “infinite” they could be different levels of infinite or something.

I never said that.

I'm saying that Frisk was barely surviving against Asriel, due to him canonically being able to kill Frisk multiple times.

Take that like Ness vs Giygas, the former was BARELY surviving against the latter despite being still roughly comparable, and enduring long enough before Paula's prayers kicked in, I think of it as the same situation.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Me when Frisk and Asriel directly have comparable DT (nobody cares):

I mean, they do! But that still doesn't mean that Asriel can't be stronger.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Photoshop Flowey was far stronger in DT than Neutral Frisk in comparison to how Asriel was stronger than TP Frisk in DT
But ig it’ll be just considered a plothole or overthinking here?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Photoshop Flowey was far stronger in DT than Neutral Frisk in comparison to how Asriel was stronger than TP Frisk in DT
But ig it’ll be just considered a plothole or overthinking here?

I'd say the latter, as DT matters in physical stats indeed, but not that much.

Remember the deal with Undyne the Undying who was physically stronger than Flowey in the 8-B Chain despite having less DT?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I never said that.

I'm saying that Frisk was barely surviving against Asriel, due to him canonically being able to kill Frisk multiple times.

Take that like Ness vs Giygas, the former was BARELY surviving against the latter despite being still roughly comparable, and enduring long enough before Paula's prayers kicked in, I think of it as the same situation.

Ah I got it now, that makes sense yeah. Though Frisk can still survive a few attacks from suppressed Asriel yet can’t even scratch him, so one of them would need to be a stonewall (or it’s like the fake hit against Undyne or something idk). It doesn’t matter that much since all the stats are 2-B anyways but meh i care too much about the nitty gritty

 

[StrymULTRA]

Though Frisk can still survive a few attacks from suppressed Asriel yet can’t even scratch him, so one of them would need to be a stonewall

Nah, it's just Frisk being resilient, not durable. We do survive few hits yeah, but that's mostly due to us dodging his attacks rather than just tank them head-on (and remember how Frisk barely surving Asriel giving his all, relying on that tiny 1 HP left (which Asriel takes them to despite being in full health, remember).

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

(or it’s like the fake hit against Undyne or something idk)

This was rejected

 

[Imaginym]

On a topic that's NOT the Undertale tiering for the upteenth time in these nine years....

What do you all think about the Ice Palace?

1 theory I've seen, works off of the UT term for death of "Falling Down" claims Snowdrake's mom, Crystal, who we see a gravestone in DR for, is connected to, or is the Silver Drake boss, since Noelle has never seen it despite playing Dragon Blazers for a very long time, even in childhood. It further theorizes that Rudy may "fall down" into it. That Dragon Blazers is a cursed game.

Another theory I've seen claims Noelle's getting stuck in Ice Palaces in DB games represents her having difficulty moving on from things in her life. The wizard leaving the party, losing Dess, waiting to play DB with her dad but not being able to make progress, & only making progress after her Dark World adventure yet still not being able to progress past the boss....

 

[Roachman40]

On a topic that's NOT the Undertale tiering for the upteenth time in these nine years....

What do you all think about the Ice Palace?

is a palace,,,,made of ice,,,probably very cold,,,

 

[Arceus0x]

is a palace,,,,made of ice,,,probably very cold,,,

TRUUUUUUUU

 

[StrymULTRA]

is a palace,,,,made of ice,,,probably very cold,,,

You forgot that this dude lives in it

 

[StrymULTRA]

Glass Cannons

vsbattles.fandom.com

Should Sans even still be here anymore? I don't think that having a good dura neg power is enough for this, as otherwise every haxxy character in existence would be a Glass Cannon.

I feel like this is a remnant of the 2016 days when Sans was scaled to 2-B with KR.

Also it uses that 1 HP thing which outdated info.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Also it uses that 1 HP thing which outdated info.

Huh why is 1 HP is outdated

Also Star Butterfly shouldn’t be there either

 

[StrymULTRA]

Huh why is 1 HP is outdated

Nothing says that Sans has 1 HP in canon given that HPs in Undertale aren't canon either, unless you wanna argue that Undyne the Undying > Photoshop Flowey in dura.

Plus it kinda clashes with the fact that Frisk deals hundreds-thousands of damage to monsters, while the Monsters can deal to Frisk only single-digit amounts of it.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Nothing says that Sans has 1 HP in canon

Files

given that HPs in Undertale aren't canon either, unless you wanna argue that Undyne the Undying > Photoshop Flowey in dura.

I don’t get it

Plus it kinda clashes with the fact that Frisk deals hundreds-thousands of damage to monsters, while the Monsters can deal to Frisk only single-digit amounts of it.

That just means that they have a lot of health? Why is that a problem

 

[Arceus0x]

Mozart String Composition, Believed Lost, Discovered in Germany

The string trio, probably written in Mozart’s teens,

pitchfork.com

New Mozart piece released before Chapter 3 even gets a trailer

 

[StrymULTRA]

Files

-40000 DEF MTT NEO is canon too.

That just means that they have a lot of health? Why is that a problem

"Monsters can deal far less damage than they can take".

I don’t get it

Look at their data HPs.