Umineko: When The Revisions Cry

[ZERO7772]

Isn't that a problem on its own? Like, anyone who actually read the visual novel knows that "Tier 0" Maria doesn't exist, heck she's actually one of the weakest witches
Same for Beato, she's a mid-tier witch at best toward the end of the story. The story is 166hours long, such a thing never occurs, heck the Beato thing isn't even in the main story, it's in a side story.

Literally, what is the reason why we don't do that with other mainstream versus then?

 

[Ovy7]

SCP 3812 too IIRC, and probably many others. I don't see a problem with making a key for a future version of the character if said character's power/tier is clear enough.

Literally, what is the reason why we don't do that with other mainstream versus then?

Umm, the characters me and Yuri named are from verses may more mainstream than WTC would ever be. . .

 

[ZERO7772]

It's not even a "future" version, it's just a "what-if" version.

The "hidden potential" thing never occurred during story, and the story never said with certain that it will happen in the future

 

[Ovy7]

It's pretty much a "future version", as we are told that's where they would reach after a certain amount of time/that's their destiny (in Maria's case). A "what-if version" is like making a version with Beato or Maria having Endless Nine because "what if they stopped believing in magic like Battler?".

 

[ZERO7772]

Can I get scans for the Beato case, please? Having them being rated so high while being basically fodders to characters like Lamda and Bern in the story doesn't sit right with me.

 

[Ovy7]

Here is Bern directly saying that Beatrice had surpassed the Witches and starts to take steps on Auau's lvl:

Spoiler

Lambda commenting on Beatrice's potential and how fast she's going down the layers, unlike her, and that she'll use Beatrice's fast evolution to shed light on a world unknown to her:

Spoiler

 

[ZERO7772]

It really looks like they are just talking about how impressive Beato as a witch and how powerful she will be if she realizes her power "one day"
The lambda parts only talk about how fast she grows as a witch.

When does this letter take place though, because in the game itself Beato "never takes such step" and even her taking a step into Featrhine's domain is a pretty vague term and doesn't mean she's anywhere near as powerful as her or even will be.

The best thing you can figure from these scans is that Beato will be stronger than people like Lamda or Bern if she reaches her peak, which we never see or is stated to exactly happen again.

 

[ZERO7772]

Honestly, my main issue has to do with VS wiki vague treatment of such cases rather than the Profiles themselves.

Can we get an admin here or smth?

 

[Ovy7]

How could she be talking about her growth as a witch when Lambda directly mentions the Ladder of the Witch Domain and how fast Beato is going down it?

The letters take place around ep 3 or 4 IIRC, tho her "never taking such step" is because, as it's directly said there, she first needs to realize this fact herself, the same way she realizes that she transcended the Human Domain when she became a Witch. And no, she isn't as powerful as Featherine, but she is taking steps towards her.

 

[ZERO7772]

Your point being? What does Beato accessing fast have to do with her being treated much higher than she ever achieved?

So again, "Beato is actually so strong" but she can't escape Lamda's chains which tie her down in episode 4, and again, if she never realized it through the story, and there's no mention that she ever does later on, it's just a "what-if" talk. It's like we saying Gohan went to train with Whiss and give him a grand priest tier.

Also the Maria case is much worse, is there anything that support her tier 0 other than her own claim?

 

[ZERO7772]

It will be better to make a separate CRT for this I think once this is done

 

[Ovy7]

Your point being? What does Beato accessing fast have to do with her being treated much higher than she ever achieved?

The fact that she reached deeps that Lambda didn't reach? The fact that she internally evolved past the Witch Domain and her realizing that would make Lambda and Bern complete fodder to Beato, in Bern's own words? Are you even reading those scans?

So again, "Beato is actually so strong" but she can't escape Lamda's chains which tie her down in episode 4, and again

Beato at that point didn't even care about the game or her life, she literally threw it away at the end, then put herself in a catatonic state for all of ep5 until she decided to just die.

It's like we saying Gohan went to train with Whiss and give him a grand priest tier.

This comparison doesn't even make sense, as, again, we are directly told of what and where Beato would reach. It's not a "what-if" it's a "when".

Also the Maria case is much worse, is there anything that support her tier 0 other than her own claim?

Half of the 2nd page was spent today discussing exactly this. So I'll say it again, this was talked about in Ep7 with her claims, Beato herself talked about this in Ep4 IIRC, the Creator's TIPs literally mentions Maria being destined to become a Creator, and in an interview, post-Ep8 Ryukishi himself talks about Maria as a Creator and why she is the Witch of Origins.

 

[MrKerf]

I am actually gonna agree with it. I understand that in future they will become as powerful as described. We, however do not see this future, so we shouldn't include this to the profiles. Any profiles, not just Umineko.

Also, why some pages doesn't have Truths as their notable attacks? Erika, Will, Dlanor are examples. Dlanor also doesn't have her Decalogue, yet Will has his Wedges. It is a bit inconsistent, if you ask me.

 

[ZERO7772]

The fact that she reached deeps that Lambda didn't reach? The fact that she internally evolved past the Witch Domain and her realizing that would make Lambda and Bern complete fodder to Beato, in Bern's own words? Are you even reading those scans?


Beato at that point didn't even care about the game or her life, she threw it away at the end, then put herself in a catatonic state for all of ep5 until she decided to just die.


This comparison doesn't even make sense, as, again, we are directly told of what and where Beato would reach. It's not a "what-if" it's a "when".


Half of the 2nd page was spent today discussing exactly this. So I'll say it again, this was talked about in Ep7 with her claims, Beato herself talked about this in Ep4 IIRC, the Creator's TIPs literally mentions Maria being destined to become a Creator, and in an interview, post-Ep8 Ryukishi himself talks about Maria as a Creator and why she is the Witch of Origins.

Again she has absolutely no idea about such power nor she can put it into use and she was tied down by Lamda easily as her pawn

If she could have gotten rid of Lamda and Bern she would have done it, they were literally forcing her to compete in it hence why she threw the game in the first place

Except she doesn't, nor it's stated that she ever did it later on. Beato throughout the story and after never unlock this said power and remain as fodder to them

The same thing applies to Maria tbh.

Please don't misunderstand me, Beato and Maria have these potential no doubts, however how they apply to this wiki system really bugs me as such claim never achieved or put into actions through the story. Why are we making a key over a empty hype

I mean jeez Killua for example has the same potinal as Gon, and we already have an idea where adult Gon stands, but we still don't give killua a " what if adult Killua " key

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here? Should we include extra keys for the potentials of Beatrice and Maria or just include these tiers in footnote explanation in their respective pages?

 

[Antvasima]

Also, why some pages doesn't have Truths as their notable attacks? Erika, Will, Dlanor are examples. Dlanor also doesn't have her Decalogue, yet Will has his Wedges. It is a bit inconsistent, if you ask me.

I can unlock pages if it is required, but I will need a list of the exact page titles as usual.

 

[MrKerf]

I can unlock pages if it is required, but I will need a list of the exact page titles as usual.

I would rather wait for an answer. Maybe there's some reason to it after all.

 

[Ovy7]

Those were probably forgotten when their profiles were made in the sandboxes. I could add them, here are the profiles:

• Virgilia
• Kinzo Ushiromiya
• Rudolf Ushiromiya
• Kyrie Ushiromiya
• Rosa Ushiromiya
• Erika Furudo
• Willard H. Wright
• Dlanor A. Knox

 

[Antvasima]

I have unlocked the pages. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here? Should we include extra keys for the potentials of Beatrice and Maria or just include these tiers in footnote explanation in their respective pages?

Anyway...

 

[ZERO7772]

So what are the conclusions here? Should we include extra keys for the potentials of Beatrice and Maria or just include these tiers in footnote explanation in their respective pages?

We probably need more opinions here. Said characters never achieved said power during the story and it's never told to us for sure that they do later on.

Its literally just hype statement for if/when they actually realize their peak.

What is your opinion regarding this case anyway Ant?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not mind if we simply include footnote explanations about their potentials instead. It is more in line with our usual standards.

 

[ZERO7772]

I prefer simply adding a footnote instead of an actual key that doesn't exist in any piece of media for them.

It's literally won't be different than adding a 2-C key for Gohan just because we know his potential exceed his father's.

I have said my piece regarding this, see what you guys prefer to do from here.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally agree with you.

 

[XDragnoir]

If a key for "Creator Maria" isn't valid, couldn't the powers, tiers, etc be added to her 2nd key? As an "will eventually become H1A/0"? I have seen many profiles doing that, so i think it should be valid here.

Also, i started reading about the verse recently, so this question is a bit "noob", the Sea of Zero, of Nothingness and of Fragments are different places from each other?

 

[ZERO7772]

Being a witch of Origin is the path to become the creator, one day, maybe....

It's not something exclusive to Maria, any witch of Origin is walking on said path.

We still never shown God Maria who play withe verse and she remain a child witch through and through, there is no difference between her many appearance.

 

[MrKerf]

I don't know whether we should add this "eventually". In a vs scenario it will never happen, and it may cause confusion.

I vote for a note, but if there are other such cases in other verses, than perhaps a general CRT would be better.

 

[ZERO7772]

I am not a fan of this "eventually" either and prefer notes but we need more opinions here.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I am going with note here aswell. Though, I'm waiting to hear what Ovy and Yuri's opinion is.

 

[ZERO7772]

Dunno about Yuri but Ovy7 and I are friends outside of the wiki and if possible I want his agreement to this change as well because I respect his opinion greatly especially when it comes to WTC stuff.

 

[Ovy7]

I have unlocked the pages. Tell me here when you are done.

I've updated all the pages.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think the rule about when "will eventually become [x]" can be applied is what should be discussed too.

Like, Avatar of Calamity and Sinbad ones are fine but future selves who never happened shouldn't be used except for things like Lucina's Future Past self and all. I think it's not that simple but that's the general idea.

 

[Ovy7]

So what are the conclusions here? Should we include extra keys for the potentials of Beatrice and Maria or just include these tiers in footnote explanation in their respective pages?

My stance remains the same, as in I completely disagree with the removal of those keys. For Marie's case, her destiny to become a Creator is pretty clear, to the point that Ryukishi (the author) himself addresses Maria as a Creator and her Witch of Origins title. Talking about this, she's the only one we know to have that title, and the aforementioned statement from the author makes it even more clearer that Maria is the only one and that she is special. So I don't see why it's wrong to have a key for that when the author himself also considers her stance as a Creator.

You can’t read interesting stories made by others.

R07: It’s just as easy to not be a Creator as it is to sit in front of the TV and watch more and more stories. Humans are the easiest to be around because they don’t even realize they are characters in someone else’s work and believe they are acting by free will. On the other hand, Bern, Lambda and the others are a hierarchy that allows them to intervene in the story, changing the channel at will and occasionally ordering the scenario writer to do so. However, intervening changes the story, so they pretend not to know that fact until the last minute. Featherine must have died stepping into it. It’s fun to fantasize in a blank notebook, but it’s pretty hard to keep writing a quick story in there, so the witch dies. A witch is one who has begun to realize that they are someone else’s creation, and is still in a position to view different creations, and the higher up she goes, the closer she gets to the position of a writer, and when she really reaches the level of a writer, she ends up being one. The reason why Maria is called the Witch of Origins is because she never gets bored and can expand her ideas and world from scratch with a bang.

In a way, Maria might be much more impressive than the other witches.

As for Beatrice, when Bern mentions her internal evolution past the Witch Domain she was talking in past tense, the evolution had already happened, but the only think missing is for Beatrice to recognize this herself, something that it's hinted she would do at one point in the future. And as I've said, this isn't even the first time something like this had happen, last time being when Beatrice internally evolved past the Human Domain into the Witch Domain, but at that time she instantly recognized this and became a Witch:

Spoiler

Edit: Also, as had been already mentioned, the 2 aren't the only characters from the wiki with similar stuff, so I don't understand why out of a sudden their keys must be purged. You either allow them like they are to other characters, or purge them from every single profile on the wiki that uses keys like this.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I think the rule about when "will eventually become [x]" can be applied is what should be discussed too.

This. I feel like this should be its own thread, considering people here seem to be against the whole idea of a future self character that has never appeared having a tier, rather than just Umineko.

 

[Ovy7]

This. I feel like this should be its own thread, considering people here seem to be against the whole idea of a future self character that has never appeared having a tier, rather than just Umineko.

Hmm, that would probably be for the better.

 

[MrKerf]

It makes sense. How many characters like these are present on the wiki?

Also, while the pages are still open, why Erika is an Unknown tier? Shouldn't she be at least human/higher for surviving the storm and decapitating Ushiromia family?

 

[XDragnoir]

Reinhard and others from Shinza Banshou have "eventually", Alovenas and 3812 have that to some extent, Sinbad, Avatar of Calamity, LN Rimuru, possibly more.

 

[Ovy7]

Also, while the pages are still open, why Erika is an Unknown tier? Shouldn't she be at least human/higher for surviving the storm and decapitating Ushiromia family?

She also climbed the mansion in the middle of the storm, so yeah, she's probably Athlete level. If it's ok, I could change her tier from Unknown to Athlete level.

 

[ZERO7772]

I am honestly against the very idea that a version of charter that never appeared in any piece of media is allowed to have a key. Not to mention characters like Reinhard we are shown their evolution and see then reach such heights. No such thing is ever shown with Beato and Maria.

All beato has is this worthless "hidden potential" which never actually succeeded in achieving nor she can put into any use in any situation she was in. It's as pointless as having a gun your jacket that you dont know it exists and if you do you dont know how to use it.

Bern was very specific in putting "if" in her letters and and "if" never happens in the story. This profile just assuming that "if" happened for no reason and give the character a key of an event that never occurred in canon which isn't genuine at all.

Also doesn't Maria having "will become tier 0" goes against the very idea of tier 0? Your either all powerful being or you are not.

My stance here also doesn't change, admins or other users should decided what to do with this.

 

[Jinsye]

Also, while the pages are still open, why Erika is an Unknown tier? Shouldn't she be at least human/higher for surviving the storm and decapitating Ushiromia family?

Surviving the storm is only from Detective's Authority. Dura feats sre generally questionable like that for Erika due to the fact the story wills it so that she doesn't die.

Decapitating the Ushiromiyas don't really lead anywhere. They put up no resistance and sharp objects are weird

Also doesn't Maria having "will become tier 0" goes against the very idea of tier 0? Your either all powerful being or you are not.

This isn't how Tier 0 works anymore. Tier 0 stopped being based on omnipotence a long time ago.